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STOL Bush Kolb

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mikemac

Joined: 22 Apr 2016
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:03 am Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. 

I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's.

1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. 

Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider Trikes since 2002 to present. 



I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the Kolb is the way to go.

Goals:   STOL is top priority. The slower I can take off and land in no wind the better.   I love to fly Low & Slow just boating around.

My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any weight. 

I want the largest Bush Gear possible.

With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL?

I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. 

Does the FS 1 and  FS 2 have the same wing area?

I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve my goals the more wing area the better.

I am totally open to suggestions. 

If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you. Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear, rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated. 

Mike MacPherson

Pequea PA.

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

If you can find a Firestar I in good condition I would prefer it to a Firestar II. A friend of mine has one, and it will out perform mine any day for what you are talking about. It is a bit faster as well. It will need VG's, stronger gear legs, bigger tires, and a bigger gas tank, but that is all.Larry

.https://vimeo.com/69917549 password - owyheeflyer



On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:03 PM, mikemac <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com (mmacpherson(at)homesale.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mikemac" <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com (mmacpherson(at)homesale.com)>

 

 Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976.

 I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's.

 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras.

 Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider Trikes since 2002 to present.

 

 I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the Kolb is the way to go.

 Goals:   STOL is top priority. The slower I can take off and land in no wind the better.   I love to fly Low & Slow just boating around.

 My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any weight.

 I want the largest Bush Gear possible.

 With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL?

 I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2.

 Does the FS 1 and  FS 2 have the same wing area?

 I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve my goals the more wing area the better.

 I am totally open to suggestions.

 If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you. Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear, rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated.

 Mike MacPherson

 Pequea PA.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

I am in almost the same position and desire as you. No Kolb experience but a reasonable amount of experimental airplane experience.



I am building a Firestar 2 kit. I got a good deal on an HKS engine, which is apparently one of the better choices for this aircraft.



STOL takeoff capability is determined by the balance between three things on ANY aircraft:



1) The amount of lift your wing can make, which includes the lift coefficient of the airfoil, the amount of wing area you have to make lift out of airspeed, and also usually includes the angle of attack you have available for takeoff.

 

2 The mass of the aircraft, which determines how fast you accelerate, and also determines the minimum speed at which the wing needs to go in order to make enough lift to fly.



3) The thrust available to accelerate that given mass to the magic speed.



Improving any one of these three factors will shorten a takeoff roll, and/or reduce the speed you need to fly.



So by all rights and reason, for any airplane that operates within the laws of physics, to achieve your goal you need to minimize weight/mass because that affects two important things at once... then you need to maximize lift (which includes anything from the vortex generators to flaperon setting, to gap seals, to taller landing gear legs)... and then you need to maximize thrust (which is fairly easy if you don't need to go fast... get the better quality and advanced design prop and adjust prop pitch for the highest low speed thrust).



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 6/5/16, mikemac <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com> wrote:



 Subject: STOL Bush Kolb

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Sunday, June 5, 2016, 11:03 AM

 

 

 "mikemac" <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com>

 

 Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. 

 I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's.

 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. 

 Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider

 Trikes since 2002 to present. 

 

 I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the

 Kolb is the way to go.

 Goals:   STOL is top priority. The slower I

 can take off and land in no wind the

 better.   I love to fly Low & Slow just

 boating around.

 My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any

 weight. 

 I want the largest Bush Gear possible.

 With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL?

 I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. 

 Does the FS 1 and  FS 2 have the same wing area?

 I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve

 my goals the more wing area the better.

 I am totally open to suggestions. 

 If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have

 what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you.

 Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on

 the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear,

 rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated. 

 Mike MacPherson

 Pequea PA.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

You left out reducing drag. Same result as increasing thrust. One very good way to do that is to seal the rudder end of the boom tube. See the attached photo. The Winter ASI just below the altimeter is connect to a tube measuring airflow coming back up the boom tube. At 72 mph indicated the wind flowing back up the boom is moving at 25 mph. That's a fair amount of drag to delete.



Rick Girard

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 I am in almost the same position and desire as you. No Kolb experience but a reasonable amount of experimental airplane experience.

 

 I am building a Firestar 2 kit. I got a good deal on an HKS engine, which is apparently one of the better choices for this aircraft.

 

 STOL takeoff capability is determined by the balance between three things on ANY aircraft:

 

 1) The amount of lift your wing can make, which includes the lift coefficient of the airfoil, the amount of wing area you have to make lift out of airspeed, and also usually includes the angle of attack you have available for takeoff.

 

 2 The mass of the aircraft, which determines how fast you accelerate, and also determines the minimum speed at which the wing needs to go in order to make enough lift to fly.

 

 3) The thrust available to accelerate that given mass to the magic speed.

 

 Improving any one of these three factors will shorten a takeoff roll, and/or reduce the speed you need to fly.

 

 So by all rights and reason, for any airplane that operates within the laws of physics, to achieve your goal you need to minimize weight/mass because that affects two important things at once... then you need to maximize lift (which includes anything from the vortex generators to flaperon setting, to gap seals, to taller landing gear legs)... and then you need to maximize thrust (which is fairly easy if you don't need to go fast... get the better quality and advanced design prop and adjust prop pitch for the highest low speed thrust).

 

 

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Sun, 6/5/16, mikemac <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com (mmacpherson(at)homesale.com)> wrote:

 

  Subject: STOL Bush Kolb

  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

  Date: Sunday, June 5, 2016, 11:03 AM

 

  --> Kolb-List message posted by:

  "mikemac" <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com (mmacpherson(at)homesale.com)>

 

  Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976.

  I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's.

  1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras.

  Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider

  Trikes since 2002 to present.

 

  I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the

  Kolb is the way to go.

  Goals:   STOL is top priority. The slower I

  can take off and land in no wind the

  better.   I love to fly Low & Slow just

  boating around.

  My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any

  weight.

  I want the largest Bush Gear possible.

  With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL?

  I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2.

  Does the FS 1 and  FS 2 have the same wing area?

  I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve

  my goals the more wing area the better.

  I am totally open to suggestions.

  If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have

  what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you.

  Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on

  the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear,

  rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated.

  Mike MacPherson

  Pequea PA.

 

 

 

 

  Read this topic online here:

 

  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Forum -

     - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

  MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

  List Contribution Web Site -

                -Matt

  Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	




-- 

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”   Groucho Marx

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:11 pm Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard

Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2016 10:39 PM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: STOL Bush Kolb

You left out reducing drag. Same result as increasing thrust. One very good way to do that is to seal the rudder end of the boom tube. See the attached photo. The Winter ASI just below the altimeter is connect to a tube measuring airflow coming back up the boom tube. At 72 mph indicated the wind flowing back up the boom is moving at 25 mph. That's a fair amount of drag to delete.

Rick Girard

Rick G/Kolbers:

Did you block the tail boom? 

How much airspeed did the aircraft pick up?

Which end of the tail boom did you block?

Does it make a difference which end to block?

Which end is most effective?

I know a lot of cold air comes through the tail boom and up the back of my neck.

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:11 pm Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

That's really interesting to have air flowing forward through the boom tube... wow !!



My first guess as to the cause is that there is a low pressure being "felt" at the front of the boom tube. This can be caused by a couple of things. The airflow swirling around the pilot and fuel tanks coiuld cause an area of low pressure behind the pilot, and the front of the boom tube could be near this low pressure area. Also, remember that the propeller creates low pressure in front of itself, and high pressure behind itself. The front of the boom tube is near this low pressure as well.



I really doubt that there is a higher than normal pressure at the back of the tube that is "blowing" air forward, because there is nothing back there to cause that high pressure. It seems likely to me that there is "suction" at the forward end of the tube "pulling" air forward.



Very interested to hear what the difference is before/after you plug the tube.

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 6/5/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: STOL Bush Kolb

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Sunday, June 5, 2016, 9:10 PM

 

    From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf

 Of Richard Girard

 Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2016 10:39 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: STOL Bush

 Kolb

  You left

 out reducing drag. Same result as increasing thrust. One

 very good way to do that is to seal the rudder end of the

 boom tube. See the attached photo. The Winter ASI just below

 the altimeter is connect to a tube measuring airflow coming

 back up the boom tube. At 72 mph indicated the wind flowing

 back up the boom is moving at 25 mph. That's a fair

 amount of drag to delete.  Rick

 Girard  

 

  Rick G/Kolbers:  Did you block the tail boom?

   How much airspeed did the

 aircraft pick up?  Which end of the tail boom did

 you block?  Does it make a difference which

 end to block?  Which end is most

 effective?  I know a lot of cold air comes

 through the tail boom and up the back of my

 neck.  john hmkIIITitus,

 Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:01 am Post subject: Re: STOL Bush Kolb

 	  victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: 	
		  That's really interesting to have air flowing forward through the boom tube... wow !!

<snip>

Very interested to hear what the difference is before/after you plug the tube.

Bill Berle

	


The difference is you don't have a boatload of freezing air blowing on your right side in the winter.

I fixed mine years ago by taking part of an old foam rubber mattress  and cutting an oversize round plug out of it, then cutting four slits for the control cables in the appropriate places and cramming it into the tube right behind the gear. It's still there. Didn't notice any change in performance.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:55 am Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

The difference is you don't have a boatload of freezing air blowing on your

right side in the winter.

I fixed mine years ago by taking part of an old foam rubber mattress  and

cutting an oversize round plug out of it, then cutting four slits for the

control cables in the appropriate places and cramming it into the tube right

behind the gear. It's still there. Didn't notice any change in performance.



--------

Richard Pike

Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

Wonder if it will help reduce noise.  Seems like the prop swinging by the

tail boom might amplify noise and send it up the tube into the cockpit.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: Re: STOL Bush Kolb

[quote="John Hauck"

Wonder if it will help reduce noise.  Seems like the prop swinging by the

tail boom might amplify noise and send it up the tube into the cockpit.

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama[/quote]



Sounds logical but didn't notice any difference.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: STOL Bush Kolb

Only thing I'd add to what others said is if you go with the 503 use a C or E gearbox with the 3.47 to 1 ratio and the appropriate Warp Drive prop.



Dennis "Skid" Rowe



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 5, 2016, at 2:03 PM, mikemac <mmacpherson(at)homesale.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. 

 I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's.

 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. 

 Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider Trikes since 2002 to present. 

 

 I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the Kolb is the way to go.

 Goals:   STOL is top priority. The slower I can take off and land in no wind the better.   I love to fly Low & Slow just boating around.

 My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any weight. 

 I want the largest Bush Gear possible.

 With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL?

 I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. 

 Does the FS 1 and  FS 2 have the same wing area?

 I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve my goals the more wing area the better.

 I am totally open to suggestions. 

 If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you. Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear, rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated. 

 Mike MacPherson

 Pequea PA.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879

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