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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:04 pm Post subject: Optima Prius Battery For TIO-540 |
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Greetings,
I am building a Dual Battery/Dual Alternator electrical system for a single Engine Velocity. The engine is a TIO-540 (turbo) and I notate this because the engine only has 7.3 to one compression pistons so therefore the starter motor will not have to fight against the usual 8.3 to 1 compression. One battery will be mounted in the nose and one battery will be mounted under the back seat.
Optima sells a 12V Prius battery that they advertise as “38 AH / CCA of 450 amps / MCA of 575 amps” and this battery is only 26 LBS.
http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/shop/yellowtop/optima-batteries-ds46b24r-yellowtop-prius-auxiliary-battery/
Concord has a “Platinum Series” replacement battery for a Aztec and this airplane has an IO-540 (with normal compression pistons) and the top of the line Concord battery advertises Rated Capacity C1 = 1 hr. rate in ampere hours 33.00 Cold Cranking Amps 440.0 and it is 33 pounds.
Even though my airplane will have two batteries I still want to be able to start my 6 banger engine with a single battery.
Does the collective wisdom on this forum believe that a singular Prius battery will be sufficient for the starting of my engine?
..
THANKS!!!
Bill Hunter
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:14 am Post subject: Optima Prius Battery For TIO-540 |
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On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 6:54 PM, William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com (billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Greetings,
I am building a Dual Battery/Dual Alternator electrical system for a single Engine Velocity. The engine is a TIO-540 (turbo) and I notate this because the engine only has 7.3 to one compression pistons so therefore the starter motor will not have to fight against the usual 8.3 to 1 compression. One battery will be mounted in the nose and one battery will be mounted under the back seat.
Optima sells a 12V Prius battery that they advertise as “38 AH / CCA of 450 amps / MCA of 575 amps” and this battery is only 26 LBS.
http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/shop/yellowtop/optima-batteries-ds46b24r-yellowtop-prius-auxiliary-battery/
Concord has a “Platinum Series” replacement battery for a Aztec and this airplane has an IO-540 (with normal compression pistons) and the top of the line Concord battery advertises Rated Capacity C1 = 1 hr. rate in ampere hours 33.00 Cold Cranking Amps 440.0 and it is 33 pounds.
Even though my airplane will have two batteries I still want to be able to start my 6 banger engine with a single battery.
Does the collective wisdom on this forum believe that a singular Prius battery will be sufficient for the starting of my engine?
..
THANKS!!!
Bill Hunter
|
Bill,
For perspective, I looked up a Gill flooded cell battery (old style with liquid acid & fill caps) designed many decades ago to crank 'big sixes'. It's also 35AH, but only 250 CCA.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/gillg35.php
Pretty sure the Optima will crank your 6cyl engine.  Most of the AGM (starved electrolyte) batteries have significantly higher CCA than flooded cell batteries with the same 20 hour rating (the '35AH' number, in your case). For example, a lot of us with 4 cyl engines use 'no name' 18AH to 22AH AGM batteries to replace the certified 25AH flooded cell batteries originally used with these engines. Even with significantly lower total energy (~20AH vs 25AH), the AGM battery will spin the engine almost fast enough to taxi the plane. Reason is, the AGM can deliver more *power*, short term, than a flooded cell battery. Only downside is that if forced to fly on battery power alone, it will run down faster than the 25AH battery. In your case, both batteries have the same AH rating, so should have the same alternator-out endurance.
Charlie
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:46 am Post subject: Optima Prius Battery For TIO-540 |
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Thanks Charlie for validating my thought process!!!
Greatly appreciated!!!
Bill Hunter
On Jul 14, 2016 06:25, "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 6:54 PM, William Hunter <
billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I am building a Dual Battery/Dual Alternator electrical system for a
> single Engine Velocity. The engine is a TIO-540 (turbo) and I notate this
> because the engine only has 7.3 to one compression pistons so therefore the
> starter motor will not have to fight against the usual 8.3 to 1
> compression. One battery will be mounted in the nose and one battery will
> be mounted under the back seat.
>
> Optima sells a 12V Prius battery that they advertise as “38 AH / CCA of
> 450 amps / MCA of 575 amps” and this battery is only 26 LBS.
>
>
> http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/shop/yellowtop/optima-batteries-ds46b24r-yellowtop-prius-auxiliary-battery/
>
> Concord has a “Platinum Series” replacement battery for a Aztec and this
> airplane has an IO-540 (with normal compression pistons) and the top of the
> line Concord battery advertises Rated Capacity C1 = 1 hr. rate in ampere
> hours 33.00 Cold Cranking Amps 440.0 and it is 33 pounds.
>
> Even though my airplane will have two batteries I still want to be able
> to start my 6 banger engine with a single battery.
>
> Does the collective wisdom on this forum believe that a singular Prius
> battery will be sufficient for the starting of my engine?
>
> ..
>
> THANKS!!!
>
> Bill Hunter
>
> Bill,
For perspective, I looked up a Gill flooded cell battery (old style with
liquid acid & fill caps) designed many decades ago to crank 'big sixes'.
It's also 35AH, but only 250 CCA.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/gillg35.php
Pretty sure the Optima will crank your 6cyl engine. Most of the AGM
(starved electrolyte) batteries have significantly higher CCA than flooded
cell batteries with the same 20 hour rating (the '35AH' number, in your
case). For example, a lot of us with 4 cyl engines use 'no name' 18AH to
22AH AGM batteries to replace the certified 25AH flooded cell batteries
originally used with these engines. Even with significantly lower total
energy (~20AH vs 25AH), the AGM battery will spin the engine almost fast
enough to taxi the plane. Reason is, the AGM can deliver more *power*,
short term, than a flooded cell battery. Only downside is that if forced to
fly on battery power alone, it will run down faster than the 25AH battery
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:22 am Post subject: Optima Prius Battery For TIO-540 |
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| Quote: |
Even though my airplane will have two batteries I still want to be able to start my 6 banger engine with a single battery.
Does the collective wisdom on this forum believe that a singular Prius battery will be sufficient for the starting of my engine?
|
Many moons ago, B&C did some testing on one of their
SMALLER SVLA batteries for cranking a high performance
engine on an aerobatic aircraft. As I recall, they
performed 5 or 6, 10-blade cranking events before
the starter performance began to noticeably flag.
Cranking performance has more do to with LOOP
RESISTANCE in the wiring path and CONDITION of
the battery than with gross battery size.
Fitting your airplane with such beastly batteries
in a quest for starting performance seems a bit
counter-intuitive . . . it is, after all, an
airplane. Any increase in empty weight should
equate to some highly desired performance gain.
Keep in mind that getting your engine started
generally uses only a few percent of total stored
energy. Just as B&C demonstrated years ago, having
an energetic little SVLA battery wired to the
starter with low loss wiring and controls proved
very adequate to the starting task.
If you're planning dual alternator, dual battery
with a split bus (Z-14) then battery integrity
is very low on the system reliability totem pole.
I would go for two of the smallest practical batteries
mounted as close to the engine as practical so that
their energy is not wasted getting it piped around
the airplane.
Why the desire to start on one battery? Do you not
plan to maintain your batteries with the same
due diligence as you would tires, oil changes, fuel
in tanks, spark plugs, prop nicks, brake fluid level,
etc. etc?
With that much engine driven power there is little
performance gain to be secured by carrying around
a lot of lead. If it were my airplane, I would use
two of the smallest practical batteries located
as described above. A pair of 18A.h. batteries
should be fine. Plan on both batteries for cranking
and the either (1) cap check the batteries every
100 hrs or annual with a goal of discarding at
80% of new capacity -OR- (2) put a new battery
in the main battery slot every year and move the
year-old main battery to the aux battery slot.
That way, you have one battery always less than
a year old, no battery more than two years old
and no need to cap check.
The only reason to worry about getting started
on one battery is because you don't have the foggiest
notion of the condition of either battery. Batteries,
PROPERLY MAINTAINED, are the most reliable source
of energy in your airplane. Carrying around two,
oversized batteries is not a good substitute for
knowing their condition.
Bob . . .
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: Optima Prius Battery For TIO-540 |
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THANKS Bob for your help and thoughts on this!!!
Yes…I read your book (multiple times) and yes maintain the batteries and will swap them out every two years whether they need it or not.
I bought a flying Velocity and it came with two batteries mounted in the nose. The larger battery is a 54 pound Optima Red Top and the small battery is a 26 pound Power Sonic 26 Ampere Hour 12260 NB.
As per your book I am moving one battery to the firewall (closer to the starter) and leaving the other battery in the nose (weight and balance reasons). I am switching the Power Sonic out for a 26 pound Optima Yellow Top AGM Group Size: JIS 46B24R (Prius Battery) and next year the huge Optima Red Top will most likely go with your recommended battery and go with the annual switch program.
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 12:17 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Optima Prius Battery For TIO-540
| Quote: |
Even though my airplane will have two batteries I still want to be able to start my 6 banger engine with a single battery.
Does the collective wisdom on this forum believe that a singular Prius battery will be sufficient for the starting of my engine? |
Many moons ago, B&C did some testing on one of their
SMALLER SVLA batteries for cranking a high performance
engine on an aerobatic aircraft. As I recall, they
performed 5 or 6, 10-blade cranking events before
the starter performance began to noticeably flag.
Cranking performance has more do to with LOOP
RESISTANCE in the wiring path and CONDITION of
the battery than with gross battery size.
Fitting your airplane with such beastly batteries
in a quest for starting performance seems a bit
counter-intuitive . . . it is, after all, an
airplane. Any increase in empty weight should
equate to some highly desired performance gain.
Keep in mind that getting your engine started
generally uses only a few percent of total stored
energy. Just as B&C demonstrated years ago, having
an energetic little SVLA battery wired to the
starter with low loss wiring and controls proved
very adequate to the starting task.
If you're planning dual alternator, dual battery
with a split bus (Z-14) then battery integrity
is very low on the system reliability totem pole.
I would go for two of the smallest practical batteries
mounted as close to the engine as practical so that
their energy is not wasted getting it piped around
the airplane.
Why the desire to start on one battery? Do you not
plan to maintain your batteries with the same
due diligence as you would tires, oil changes, fuel
in tanks, spark plugs, prop nicks, brake fluid level,
etc. etc?
With that much engine driven power there is little
performance gain to be secured by carrying around
a lot of lead. If it were my airplane, I would use
two of the smallest practical batteries located
as described above. A pair of 18A.h. batteries
should be fine. Plan on both batteries for cranking
and the either (1) cap check the batteries every
100 hrs or annual with a goal of discarding at
80% of new capacity -OR- (2) put a new battery
in the main battery slot every year and move the
year-old main battery to the aux battery slot.
That way, you have one battery always less than
a year old, no battery more than two years old
and no need to cap check.
The only reason to worry about getting started
on one battery is because you don't have the foggiest
notion of the condition of either battery. Batteries,
PROPERLY MAINTAINED, are the most reliable source
of energy in your airplane. Carrying around two,
oversized batteries is not a good substitute for
knowing their condition.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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