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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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 Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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For a two alternator (alternator + generator) one battery system similar to Z-13/8 where the generator is the auxiliary and is wired for over voltage so the relay cuts the current TO the regulator (as in Z-16), would it be acceptable to just use the 5 amp panel breaker as the on-off switch for the auxiliary generator, rather than using a toggle switch? In this case the C wire from the regulator would go directly to the main bus (the master switch would be used for the main alternator field wire and battery contactor).Â
I can't see why a push-pull breaker would not be adequate for activating and deactivating the auxiliary generator. Normal use would be once on startup to check that the auxiliary charging system is functional, and then only in the event of a failure of the primary charging system during flight.
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:21 am Post subject: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Your plan sounds OK to me. Just keep in mind that if the "C" terminal is wired directly to the main bus, then shutting off the master switch will NOT shut off the Aux generator. The master switch will only disconnect the battery from the electrical system. The generator, once enabled, will continue to power the aircraft. So in an emergency, not only does the master need to be shut off, but also the aux generator breaker needs to be pulled off.
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:17 am Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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You might want to also look at the rated lifetime operations of the pull-able breaker vs a plain switch or a 'circuit breaker switch'. It's unlikely any of us would ever wear any of them out in a homebuilt, but those ratings are at least some indication of expected life. Most breakers aren't designed for multiple actuations during every use of the 'appliance' they protect, so their number of rated operations is typically lower than a switch. Sometimes by a lot.
FWIW... Â
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 7:21 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Your plan sounds OK to me. Just keep in mind that if the "C" terminal is wired directly to the main bus, then shutting off the master switch will NOT shut off the Aux generator. The master switch will only disconnect the battery from the electrical system. The generator, once enabled, will continue to power the aircraft. So in an emergency, not only does the master need to be shut off, but also the aux generator breaker needs to be pulled off.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458231#458231
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Thanks Joe. I guess it's not ideal but in that respect I think it's the same as Z-13/8. I hope to have a completed diagram to post pretty soon.
Ken
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 4:21 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Your plan sounds OK to me. Just keep in mind that if the "C" terminal is wired directly to the main bus, then shutting off the master switch will NOT shut off the Aux generator. The master switch will only disconnect the battery from the electrical system. The generator, once enabled, will continue to power the aircraft. So in an emergency, not only does the master need to be shut off, but also the aux generator breaker needs to be pulled off.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458231#458231
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ashleysc(at)broadstripe.n
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Hi All;
The rated life of the Tyco W31-X2M1G, which is a toggle switch/circuit breaker available from 1 to 50 amps is stated to be equal or greater than 10,000 mechanical cycles, or 6,000 cycles at 100% rated load. The push pull type is similar. Enough for my limited life-span.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 6:15:54 AM
Subject: Re: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator?
You might want to also look at the rated lifetime operations of the pull-able breaker vs a plain switch or a 'circuit breaker switch'. It's unlikely any of us would ever wear any of them out in a homebuilt, but those ratings are at least some indication of expected life. Most breakers aren't designed for multiple actuations during every use of the 'appliance' they protect, so their number of rated operations is typically lower than a switch. Sometimes by a lot.
FWIW...
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 7:21 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Your plan sounds OK to me. Just keep in mind that if the "C" terminal is wired directly to the main bus, then shutting off the master switch will NOT shut off the Aux generator. The master switch will only disconnect the battery from the electrical system. The generator, once enabled, will continue to power the aircraft. So in an emergency, not only does the master need to be shut off, but also the aux generator breaker needs to be pulled off.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458231#458231
===========
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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I was hoping to use Klixon 2TC series because I have some in the shop. Here's a link: http://www.sensata.com/klixon/circuit-breaker-aircraft-2tc.htm They are endurance rated:
2500 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz inductive
5000 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz resistive
2500 cycles: 30VDC inductive
5000 cycles: 30VDC resistive
10,000 cycles: Mechanical, no load
What I have on hand is 4 amp. I think I already asked if it would be okay to substitute 4 amp for 5 amp and got the "okay."Â
Just out of curiosity, which of the above would be closest to this application (connecting and disconnecting the generator and regulator)?
Does it make any difference how this breaker is wired (which terminal is upstream)? One of the terminals seems to be designated "Line."
Ken
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:52 AM 7/16/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi All;
The rated life of the Tyco W31-X2M1G, which is a toggle switch/circuit breaker available from 1 to 50 amps is stated to be equal or greater than 10,000 mechanical cycles, or 6,000 cycles at 100% rated load. The push pull type is similar. Enough for my limited life-span.
Cheers!  Stu. |
 These devices were problematic in the Barons and Bonanzas.
 Furhter, their i(squared)T constant is larger than the
 legacy, miniature breaker. If you want to use a breaker
 upstream of crowbar ov protection, please consider the
 miniature, push-pull breakers.
 Bob . . .
|
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ashleysc(at)broadstripe.n
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:39 am Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Hi Ken;
I have not encountered the 2TC. But I looked at the website you listed and found no mention that it can be used as a switch. If you can grasp the button and pull it out, I suppose it can function as a switch, but it might be worth checking with the factory. I also don't see a trip indication (white ring on push button). I would want it to be obvious which CB has tripped.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 10:51:31 AM
Subject: Re: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator?
I was hoping to use Klixon 2TC series because I have some in the shop. Here's a link: http://www.sensata.com/klixon/circuit-breaker-aircraft-2tc.htm They are endurance rated:
2500 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz inductive
5000 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz resistive
2500 cycles: 30VDC inductive
5000 cycles: 30VDC resistive
10,000 cycles: Mechanical, no load
What I have on hand is 4 amp. I think I already asked if it would be okay to substitute 4 amp for 5 amp and got the "okay."
Just out of curiosity, which of the above would be closest to this application (connecting and disconnecting the generator and regulator)?
Does it make any difference how this breaker is wired (which terminal is upstream)? One of the terminals seems to be designated "Line."
Ken
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:52 AM 7/16/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi All;
The rated life of the Tyco W31-X2M1G, which is a toggle switch/circuit breaker available from 1 to 50 amps is stated to be equal or greater than 10,000 mechanical cycles, or 6,000 cycles at 100% rated load. The push pull type is similar. Enough for my limited life-span.
Cheers! Stu. |
These devices were problematic in the Barons and Bonanzas.
Furhter, their i(squared)T constant is larger than the
legacy, miniature breaker. If you want to use a breaker
upstream of crowbar ov protection, please consider the
miniature, push-pull breakers.
Bob . . .
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:00 pm Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Stu, it does have the white ring.
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, <ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net (ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Ken;
I have not encountered the 2TC. But I looked at the website you listed and found no mention that it can be used as a switch. If you can grasp the button and pull it out, I suppose it can function as a switch, but it might be worth checking with the factory. I also don't see a trip indication (white ring on push button). I would want it to be obvious which CB has tripped.
Cheers!  Stu.
From: "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 10:51:31 AM
Subject: Re: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator?
I was hoping to use Klixon 2TC series because I have some in the shop. Here's a link: http://www.sensata.com/klixon/circuit-breaker-aircraft-2tc.htm They are endurance rated:
2500 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz inductive
5000 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz resistive
2500 cycles: 30VDC inductive
5000 cycles: 30VDC resistive
10,000 cycles: Mechanical, no load
What I have on hand is 4 amp. I think I already asked if it would be okay to substitute 4 amp for 5 amp and got the "okay."Â
Just out of curiosity, which of the above would be closest to this application (connecting and disconnecting the generator and regulator)?
Does it make any difference how this breaker is wired (which terminal is upstream)? One of the terminals seems to be designated "Line."
Ken
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:52 AM 7/16/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi All;
The rated life of the Tyco W31-X2M1G, which is a toggle switch/circuit breaker available from 1 to 50 amps is stated to be equal or greater than 10,000 mechanical cycles, or 6,000 cycles at 100% rated load. The push pull type is similar. Enough for my limited life-span.
Cheers!  Stu. |
 These devices were problematic in the Barons and Bonanzas.
 Furhter, their i(squared)T constant is larger than the
 legacy, miniature breaker. If you want to use a breaker
 upstream of crowbar ov protection, please consider the
 miniature, push-pull breakers.
 Bob . . .
|
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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ashleysc(at)broadstripe.n
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Hi Ken;
OK; seems like it's the functional equivalent of the switch/circuit breakers we all know. A little fewer cycles, but you're not going to outlive it.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 12:57:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator?
Stu, it does have the white ring.
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, <ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net (ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Ken;
I have not encountered the 2TC. But I looked at the website you listed and found no mention that it can be used as a switch. If you can grasp the button and pull it out, I suppose it can function as a switch, but it might be worth checking with the factory. I also don't see a trip indication (white ring on push button). I would want it to be obvious which CB has tripped.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 10:51:31 AM
Subject: Re: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator?
I was hoping to use Klixon 2TC series because I have some in the shop. Here's a link: http://www.sensata.com/klixon/circuit-breaker-aircraft-2tc.htm They are endurance rated:
2500 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz inductive
5000 cycles: 120VAC, 400 Hz resistive
2500 cycles: 30VDC inductive
5000 cycles: 30VDC resistive
10,000 cycles: Mechanical, no load
What I have on hand is 4 amp. I think I already asked if it would be okay to substitute 4 amp for 5 amp and got the "okay."
Just out of curiosity, which of the above would be closest to this application (connecting and disconnecting the generator and regulator)?
Does it make any difference how this breaker is wired (which terminal is upstream)? One of the terminals seems to be designated "Line."
Ken
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:52 AM 7/16/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi All;
The rated life of the Tyco W31-X2M1G, which is a toggle switch/circuit breaker available from 1 to 50 amps is stated to be equal or greater than 10,000 mechanical cycles, or 6,000 cycles at 100% rated load. The push pull type is similar. Enough for my limited life-span.
Cheers! Stu. |
These devices were problematic in the Barons and Bonanzas.
Furhter, their i(squared)T constant is larger than the
legacy, miniature breaker. If you want to use a breaker
upstream of crowbar ov protection, please consider the
miniature, push-pull breakers.
Bob . . .
|
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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While the Beech aircraft did result in an AD, I have heard reports of as
many problems generated by taking things apart and replacing before
failure as those that generated the AD. A lot of other brands used the
exact same units such as Mooney that do not have AD. Don't know if there
is any difference, or just luck of the draw that any failures didn't
catch the FAA attention.
On 7/16/2016 10:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:52 AM 7/16/2016, you wrote:
> Hi All;
> The rated life of the Tyco W31-X2M1G, which is a toggle switch/circuit
> breaker available from 1 to 50 amps is stated to be equal or greater
> than 10,000 mechanical cycles, or 6,000 cycles at 100% rated load. The
> push pull type is similar. Enough for my limited life-span.
> Cheers! Stu.
These devices were problematic in the Barons and Bonanzas.
Furhter, their i(squared)T constant is larger than the
legacy, miniature breaker. If you want to use a breaker
upstream of crowbar ov protection, please consider the
miniature, push-pull breakers.
Bob . . .
|
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Assuming the 4 amp breaker protects a relay coil with a current of 1 or 2 tenths of an amp, I expect that the breaker will last for the mechanical cycle lifetime. Not only is the current a small fraction of the breaker rating, so is the voltage less than the 30 VDC rating. The fact that the relay is an inductive load is not a big factor either because the induced voltage is limited to one volt by the diode across the coil.
As for the polarity of the breaker, I doubt that it matters. Just in case that it does matter, connect the line side to the power bus.
The breaker data sheet shows a voltage drop of 0.45 volts at 4 amps. An ATC fuse drops 0.009 volts at 4 amps according to this chart:
http://tinyurl.com/ATC-Fuse-Chart if I interpreted it correctly.
| Quote: | Just out of curiosity, which of the above would be closest to this application (connecting and disconnecting the generator and regulator)?
Does it make any difference how this breaker is wired (which terminal is upstream)? One of the terminals seems to be designated "Line." |
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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Thanks Joe. I completely missed the voltage drop. That sure seems like a lot. Is that typical for a breaker? I am using fuses for almost everything. I think the only breakers I will have are this one for the generator and another for the alternator field wire.
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 4:13 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Assuming the 4 amp breaker protects a relay coil with a current of 1 or 2 tenths of an amp, I expect that the breaker will last for the mechanical cycle lifetime. Not only is the current a small fraction of the breaker rating, so is the voltage less than the 30 VDC rating. The fact that the relay is an inductive load is not a big factor either because the induced voltage is limited to one volt by the diode across the coil.
 As for the polarity of the breaker, I doubt that it matters. Just in case that it does matter, connect the line side to the power bus.
 The breaker data sheet shows a voltage drop of 0.45 volts at 4 amps. An ATC fuse drops 0.009 volts at 4 amps according to this chart:
http://tinyurl.com/ATC-Fuse-Chart if I interpreted it correctly.
> Just out of curiosity, which of the above would be closest to this application (connecting and disconnecting the generator and regulator)?
> Does it make any difference how this breaker is wired (which terminal is upstream)? One of the terminals seems to be designated "Line."
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458263#458263
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: breaker as switch for aux alternator? |
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That voltage drop is at rated current of 4 amps. Since the actual current is only 1 or 2 tenths of an amp, the voltage drop will be negligible.
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