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Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground
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Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

I see There are also a couple of Roland Schmidt in Germany - so we share this fate.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:46 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Different David Joyce, there are two

Graham

 

    On Sunday, 31 July 2016, 19:31, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:



  



 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>



David, why are you testing the Whirlwind blades? You wrote, that you are satisfied with the Woodcomp. Anyway I would be very interested in the results, especially how/if they improve cooling, since you have a similar setup (I guess there's not such a big difference between Mono and Trigear).



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI 

XS TG 914





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458979#458979http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List> http://foru              - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI --> http://wiki                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:20 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hello Frans



Regarding thinner radiators working better than thick ones ....... Does this hold true for radiators of the same area?



Cheers

Kingsley in Oz

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

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Hash: SHA1



Hello Kingsley,



 	  Quote: 	
		   Regarding thinner radiators working better than thick ones ....... 

 Does this hold true for radiators of the same area?


	


The radiator I use has a slightly larger area but it also indirectly

cools the oil. So yes I would say that even with the same area you

would be better of with a thinner radiator. You need air going through

the radiator but the original radiator is simply too thick for the

airspeeds we are using and it almost blocks the air. I don't know

where this design came from, but I have not seen any other airplane in

our speed range which has a radiator that thick. The certified

arplanes which use a Rotax engine all have a thin radiator and almost

no air cooling of the cylinders and none of them have the cooling

problems we have with our Europa's.

To have the radiator in front of the engine also enables you to

"recycle" the air coming out of the radiator to air cool the engine

and to draw away the heat from the exhaust stack for free. Less air

"consumption" means less drag, and you don't need the unsightly and

draggy doghouse anymore because a very small air exit is all you need.



Greetings,

Frans

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

So do you think that, keeping the original cowling and the oil coller you could have a larger thinner rad with the oil coller behind as per the original stock design?

Will



William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744



 

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>

 

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 Hash: SHA1

 

 Hello Kingsley,

 

 > Regarding thinner radiators working better than thick ones .......

 > Does this hold true for radiators of the same area?

 

 The radiator I use has a slightly larger area but it also indirectly

 cools the oil. So yes I would say that even with the same area you

 would be better of with a thinner radiator. You need air going through

 the radiator but the original radiator is simply too thick for the

 airspeeds we are using and it almost blocks the air. I don't know

 where this design came from, but I have not seen any other airplane in

 our speed range which has a radiator that thick. The certified

 arplanes which use a Rotax engine all have a thin radiator and almost

 no air cooling of the cylinders and none of them have the cooling

 problems we have with our Europa's.

 To have the radiator in front of the engine also enables you to

 "recycle" the air coming out of the radiator to air cool the engine

 and to draw away the heat from the exhaust stack for free. Less air

 "consumption" means less drag, and you don't need the unsightly and

 draggy doghouse anymore because a very small air exit is all you need.

 

 Greetings,

 Frans

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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:43 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Thank you Frans. I wish I was a bit closer to you so I could have a look at your set-up. 



Personally I would be hesitant to block off airflow over the engine because in the event of loss of coolant, the fins on the cylinders would be rendered inoperable. I was most grateful for this secondary cooling provided on the Rotax engine when I blew a coolant hose some time ago. The Europa supplied hoses were crap and I have much more confidence in Stefan's silicone hoses. 



Thanks again for your much valued wisdom.  



Kingsley

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:37 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

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On 08/02/2016 05:27 AM, Kingsley Hurst wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Personally I would be hesitant to block off airflow over the

 engine because in the event of loss of coolant, the fins on the

 cylinders would be rendered inoperable.


	


The fins on the cylinders will cool only that: the cylinder walls.

They won't cool the cylinder heads. I'm not sure what gain you would

expect from improved cooling of the cylinder walls.



Frans

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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:37 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

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On 08/01/2016 10:37 PM, William Daniell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   So do you think that, keeping the original cowling and the oil

 coller you could have a larger thinner rad with the oil coller

 behind as per the original stock design?


	


Might well be possible but I can't guarantee that of course.



Frans

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ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

 	  wdaniell.longport(at)gmai wrote: 	
		  So do you think that, keeping the original cowling and the oil coller you could have a larger thinner rad with the oil coller behind as per the original stock design?

	




Karel Vrancken did that on F-PKRL with good results on a 912 powered mono. His cowling intake was also slightly modified. 

http://www.jetphotos.net/photo/6024281

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:07 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

I agree Frans, there will be some heat transfer from the head to thins but not much. Pistons are cooled by the oil.

Graham



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 2 Aug 2016, at 05:34, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 

 

 

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 Hash: SHA1

 

> On 08/02/2016 05:27 AM, Kingsley Hurst wrote:

> 

> Personally I would be hesitant to block off airflow over the

> engine because in the event of loss of coolant, the fins on the

> cylinders would be rendered inoperable.

 

 The fins on the cylinders will cool only that: the cylinder walls.

 They won't cool the cylinder heads. I'm not sure what gain you would

 expect from improved cooling of the cylinder walls.

 

 Frans

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Richard Lamprey

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 95
Location: Kenya

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland, for my Europa Classic monowheel in Kenya, with 912UL, some years back I had a radiator leak on the factory standard radiators (one side).  These had never been very good anyway, in Kenya's hot temperatures.  The factory did not at that time have replacements, so I made up a template for slightly larger and slimmer radiators, for fabrication by Docking Engineering, located at Silverstone UK... they supply to the racing car industry.  The radiators are so efficient that I ended up blanking off large areas just so the engine would operate at minimum 90 degrees, even idling on the ground in Kenya's hot temperatures.  Docking still exist, their website is active, although they did not reply when I emailed them last year about making up some spares on the original design...

An alternative solution to your cooling problem?

Best, Richard, Kenya,, 

Monowheel Classic, reg 5Y-LRY, 912UL

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi Richard,



indeed there are strong hints, that thin radiators cool better than their thick counterparts (as Frans also found out). 



But then I might end up with temperatures too low in the cruise and descend, where my current setup is almost perfect. Even on the ground it only went to but not beyond the limits in five years, so a little flap under the tunnel, improvement of the sealing of the tunnel and radiator and removing of the thermostat will hopefully bring the critical few °C and some more margin to get it >99% sufficient even on the ground. And then there is still the Whirlwind-option.....



Thanks anyway!



Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland,



We have noted that the Whirlwind blades cause the door in the center of the cowl to lift slightly in flight which didn't occur with the Warp Drive blades.  We attribute this to more air entering the engine compartment.



Our 914 cools properly using the factory supplied firewall forward kit.  It is very important to seal all gaps in the cooling duct so that all air must pass through a radiator.  We even seal between the bottom of the coolant radiator and the top of the oil radiator with tape.  



Jim & Heather

N241BW

rogersheridan(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:12 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi Jim,



Do you see any performance difference between the Warp Drive & Whirlwind?



I believe that the Whirlwind blades are not from the same manufacturer as the Whirlwind prop that Kim Prout uses - is that correct?



Cheers,



Roger



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 3 Aug 2016, at 13:20, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Roland,

 

 We have noted that the Whirlwind blades cause the door in the center of the cowl to lift slightly in flight which didn't occur with the Warp Drive blades.  We attribute this to more air entering the engine compartment.

 

 Our 914 cools properly using the factory supplied firewall forward kit.  It is very important to seal all gaps in the cooling duct so that all air must pass through a radiator.  We even seal between the bottom of the coolant radiator and the top of the oil radiator with tape.  

 

 Jim & Heather

 N241BW

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459147#459147

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi Roger,



you might want to have a look at this thread http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16759407&highlight=whirlwind+blades



According to Bud Yerly 5-6 knots at altitude can be expected.



Roland

PH-ZTI 

XS TG 914

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Heather and Jim,



good point to seal all gaps thoroughly - I'll first focus on this. I've already installed an aluminum sheet to press more air through the radiator. Only a very low amount of air goes through  a gap below the radiator to the 7-row (!) oil cooler, which won't cause a lot of additional resistance. I've also noticed, that I have a gap between the upper edge of the cooling duct and the lower cowling just below the spinner, which I also have to close....  



I have some hope, that the Whirlwinds would also contribute to additional cooling. I think I'll let the Airmaster-dealer make a Quote for me, although I highly appreciate the robustness of the Warp Drive blades.



I'll see if I can add some photos later.

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:21 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

To all.

I'm trying to catch up with the list and am a bit distraught.



Cooling of the Woodcomp/Airmaster/Whirlwind/Sensenich/ or a carved baseball 

bat propellers, is an interesting argument.  In my opinion backed up by 

testing of now some 6 different propellers and ten blades, I have found the 

following based on the assumptions below:



Assumptions:

The exterior cowl is standard.  The round inlet holes are clean and at least 

open to the 3 inches.  The exit duct is unmodified.

The engine cold air duct installs are stock for both the 912S and 914.

No plenum over the cylinders.

The installation of the coolers is stock to include the 1.5 to 2 inch drop 

of the oil cooler.

The duct and radiator and oil cooler sides are sealed to the extent no light 

can be seen around the radiators, and only through the fins of the radiator. 

(I use a lot of red RTV silicone.)

To the best of ones ability, on visual inspection, air can only go through 

the cooling fins.

The sides are sealed very well with cowl seal to the lower cowl.

The gap between the oil cooler and glycol cooler is no more than 1/8 inch.

The forward end of the duct is sealed to prevent airflow blowing up into the 

spinner/front of the engine area bleeding off duct pressure.

The cowl inlet has been smoothed to allow a smooth flow inlet.

The metal duct has not been significantly modified in shape or form.

The engine has a 1.2 bar radiator cap is installed, and glycol ratio is a 

minimum of 50/50 with Dexcool or similar orange coolant.  (Not Evans as the 

BTU transfer rate is lower and requires a larger radiator and or higher 

volume water pump in the hot Florida climate.)

The #3 exhaust pipe is wrapped with exhaust wrap fiber or a heat shield is 

fabricated to reduce radiated heat on the temp probe giving erroneous 

results.

The propeller has a twist ratio of about 16 degrees  (i.e. root at 16 

degrees and tip at zero) which is pretty much common for props suitable for 

the Rotax 9 series.

Idle speed on a Rotax is at least 1800 RPM.



Note:  Full Synthetic oil (Mobile 1 MX4T) runs a bit cooler than the 

Aeroshell Sport +4.  It also warms up slower.  CHT's are a bit lower with 

full synthetic in certain conditions.  Could most likely be because the oil 

is cooler and running here in The States on Ethanol laced fuel and lower 

octane makes less heat.  I have insufficient data to confirm.



With the above assumptions satisfied the Europa XS will be able to idle 

(1800 RPM) on the ground  on a standard day into a light breeze for a 

minimum of 20 minutes before glycol temps hit 245F .

With the engine run up to 2500 RPM the time is extended to 25 minutes.



Note:  At 245F, at idle, if a shut down is initiated, one rarely hears 

boiling on the ground, however, after high power run ups where cylinders and 

heads are hot, it is not common if a quick shutdown is made, some boiling 

may be heard.  This is normal as the boiling point is about 266 F.  Read the 

ROAN website for more detail.



Technique:  With a constant speed propeller, increase the RPM to 2500 and 

manually position the prop to a courser setting to drop the RPM back to 

about 2000.  This really increases the draw.

Note:  The propeller pushing air down the inlet does not cool the engine, it 

is the prop blast creating a draw around/behind the cowl exit.  This is an 

undeniable fact.  It was proved in the 30's.



Climb out cylinder temperatures will hold at 245F to at least 10,000 feet at 

90 knot climb.  245F is my personal max to prevent boiling.

Climb out at 75 knots will eventually creep to above 245 by about 5000 feet 

and will continue to climb.  I do not recommend climbing below 90 knots 

indicated especially at OATs above standard.

Typical problems of the Europa XS:

The glycol cooler is designed for cruise conditions at high power settings. 

Not ground operations.

The mono on the ground prevents the XS cowl exit to operate with efficiency. 

It negates the draw from the rear of the cowl.  See Cooling 101 for cowl 

modifications.

The XS cowl overcools at cruise due to its fixed exit.

On the ground, the oil heats so slowly, the CHT is nearly at your max for 

takeoff.  A flap is a simple fix to block the oil cooler for a faster warm 

up and the oil flow stays high.



Note:  I'm not a fan of oil thermostats, but they have been used effectively 

by some.  I have not had good luck with the Aeroshell Sport+4 with 

thermostat, but it was OK for the Mobile 1 MX4T.

The 914 turbo and oil tank exacerbates the hot corner formed near the #3 

probe.  Reflected heat in this corner is relieved by the scoop on the duct, 

but that scoop also decreases the delta P on the radiators.



So a quick and dirty to cool better.

Follow Cooling 101 techniques and seal the duct.

Pitch the prop more on the ground to increase airflow.

Mono's can use a wider exit or a mechanically actuated lip on the exit (cowl 

flap) to improve ground draw.

Use both the CHT supplied and the pain in the A__ , notoriously inaccurate, 

liquid coolant temp probe, to monitor the cooling health of your engine.  (I 

do not practice this, I just keep head temp below 245.)



Feel free to use tape and formed blocks of foam to make a draggy ramp to 

increase the draw out of the rear of the cowl for you mono owners to 

experiment.



If you can't help spending money:

A larger radiator is nice, but then you need a thermostat for cruise, or:

Rebuild the cowl and spend many hours to install new ducting, a slightly 

larger radiator (about 50% larger is about right), install a movable cowl 

flap, on the mono widen the cowl exit to compensate for the blockage with 

the gear down...

Thinner radiators are slightly better, but don't confuse thinner with 

passage size.  Many thinner radiators have smaller cooling tubes requiring 

much more surface area.  A two inch deep radiator with 1/8 inch by 3 inch 

wide tubes and 1/4 inch finned area between with a surface area of about 60 

square inches works very well in vehicles as our South African partner found 

out.  I believe the BTU transfer rates at MoCal.  Our motorcycle engine 

could use a radiator that is 3+" deep, 5" high and 10" inches wide rather 

than our 3" x 3.5" x 10" 8 bar block.  Rotax's new radiator is 1.3"x 13" x 

5.5" 13 tube which has the same cooling area as our poor old block. 

Lockwood Rotax Service prefers the larger version on their aircraft which is 

about 2 x 6 x 16  inch 10 tube which cools about any plane, but it runs a 

bit cool if ducted in a tight cowl.  So the current Rotax Guru's are looking 

for a radiator with about  50% more coolant tube volume.  So I'm thinking we 

need a radiator closer to 6 inches tall with 12 bars and a cowl flap or 

thermostat to make an all season no compromises aircraft.



Remember, an airplane is 20,000+ compromises flying in close formation.  The 

choices on these compromises is yours.

Just my thoughts.



Regards,



Bud Yerly

Custom Flight Creations.

Absolutely Stock 914 install with various propellers tested.



--

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Good morning Bud,



thanks a lot for your detailed answer - very interesting read!



Strange (and good) thing is, that I don't have ANY problems when airborne. I don't come even near 245/118 CHT when climbing 100% 85KIAS in ISA+15 MTOM.



I'm sure now after all those valuable answers (indeed much appreciated!), that I have to further improve the sealing of my cooling duct first and remove the water thermostat. I can do that myself with my limited skills, without spending a lot of money or alter the whole setup and plumbing and then see what happens. I might be one of your best customers, if I lived in Florida   



I'll also try to increase the RPM on the ground and set a course pitch if need be. 



BTW: I currently - as Remi - don't seem to be able to attach photos to my posts. 



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

A little "progress" report:



I closed and sealed the gap between the upper edge of the air inlet and the top of the cooling tunnel and made two 2-hours flights (one low at 2500 ft and the other one high at FL 110). It was - of no avail. Actually I achieved the opposite, namely CHTs of 100°C in the cruise instead of 95°C (decreasing veeery reluctant in the descent) and also higher oil temperatures, reaching almost 130°C in the climb at MTOM 90 KIAS.



I was at the Fly in at Wyk/Föhr EDXY and met two other Europa owners, of which one had a Trigear. I thoroughly inspected his cowling and cooling tunnel, which was a whole lot different to mine. He had a separate opening in the lower cowling under the radiator for the oil cooler and three additional openings with gills (similar style as the ones on the sides of the upper cowling) on top of the cowling just in front of the windscreen. If we meet again I'll make a ground run with his upper cowling that is easily exchangeable.



Every Europa is different indeed - and I'll go on experimenting - maybe I should make the  inspection doors on the upper cowling controllable from inside the cockpit for ground operations (a lot of hot air exits them after shut down, when I open them) - I guess I would be the first with that one 



Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:42 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland,

Send me pictures of your cowl and install when you can.



Normally when folks have problems they have missed something obvious to me 

but not to them and I fail to mention it.  Again, I fly with a stock set of 

parts by the book, in a hotter environment and overcool normally with the 

914 with no intercooler.  We are missing something that works for me and my 

clients but not for you.  We do not want that to happen.



Check your exhaust for leaks.  If #3 is leaking a small amount the CHT is 

off the charts on the ground and is blown away inflight unless it is a 

narrow jet that impacts a 912 carb float bowl which makes things really 

exciting.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly

US Europa Dealer.



--

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