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ground aerobatics...

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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 6:44 pm Post subject: ground aerobatics...

Seems that Herb cannot get anything right today...been that kind of 

day....!!  anyhow...the Test flight  video of the Firefly(for those of 

you who have been following this saga)  was the second flight...The same 

guy,experienced Kolb owner, flew a no video ,by the book first 

flight...testing trim, stall so on...



   Satisfied the  strapped on the camera and did the you tube 

flight....and the third flight was the owner flipping the plane on its 

back.. private , non accessible video at this time..



   clear as mud?   Herb



On 05/03/2016 07:58 PM, pcking wrote:

[quote] 

 That the pilot flies sailplanes could explain what you see as extreme 

 maneuvers in the video. A 45 degree bank is normal in a sailplane when 

 you are trying to fly in the core of a thermal. A pullup to wings 

 vertical is a fast way to reverse direction when you have flown out of 

 the core. This pilot found himself in a plane with a crisp roll rate 

 and enjoyed it.

 ---

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 11:20 pm Post subject: ground aerobatics...

Now it's clear... I did not realize the new owner had wrecked it. The youtube videos I saw did not show anything that frightened me... I'm an old washed up 15 meter glider racer myself 



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:



 Subject: ground aerobatics...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 7:44 PM

 

 

 Herb <Herbgh(at)nctc.com>

 

 Seems that Herb cannot get anything right today...been that

 kind of 

 day....!!  anyhow...the Test flight  video of the

 Firefly(for those of 

 you who have been following this saga)  was the second

 flight...The same 

 guy,experienced Kolb owner, flew a no video ,by the book

 first 

 flight...testing trim, stall so on...

 

    Satisfied the  strapped on the camera

 and did the you tube 

 flight....and the third flight was the owner flipping the

 plane on its 

 back.. private , non accessible video at this time..

 

    clear as mud?   Herb

 

 On 05/03/2016 07:58 PM, pcking wrote:

 > 

 >

 >

 > That the pilot flies sailplanes could explain what you

 see as extreme 

 > maneuvers in the video. A 45 degree bank is normal in a

 sailplane when 

 > you are trying to fly in the core of a thermal. A

 pullup to wings 

 > vertical is a fast way to reverse direction when you

 have flown out of 

 > the core. This pilot found himself in a plane with a

 crisp roll rate 

 > and enjoyed it.

 >

 >

 > ---

flywithme

Joined: 27 Apr 2016
Posts: 19
Location: oklahoma

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous maneuver

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

By normal flight training standards, based on very old memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle  45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot training).



A 60 degree banked level flight turn in calm air results in exactly a 2G load on the airframe. I'm pretty sure that the Kolb was designed to withstand far far more than 2G. (if not, I have a Firestar kit for sale cheap).



However, bank angle alone does not determine G forces. A 60 degree banked coordinated level flight turn will give you 2G. But a "wingover" maneuver is not a level turn, and most of the time the high bank angle comes at a time when the airplane is "unloaded". So the reality is that the wingover maneuver shown in the video could easily have been at ZERO-G. (I do zero-G wingovers all the time in an old Cessna 172 and it puts zero stress on the airframe) 



You can do a simple "aileron roll" that puts no stress whatsoever on the airplane for 3/4 of the maneuver, and only 1.3 or 1.4G on the airplane during the other 1/4 of the maneuver. There is a very famous incident of a Boeing test pilot named Tex Johnson doing a full 360 degree aileron roll in the first prototype 707, with a bunch of news reporters on board, and it didn't even ruffle anyone's hair on board the airplane. You can find the video on youtube I'm sure.



The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous" in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around with these kinds of maneuvers.



The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria. 



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme <constrjh(at)pldi.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM

 

 

 "flywithme" <constrjh(at)pldi.net>

 

 i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a

 steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb.

 is this really such a dangerous maneuver

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: ground aerobatics...

I can only speak for myself.  My Kolbs all loved to fly that way.  To me, it

was/is normal.



The Kolb is a very capable aircraft, but to fly it well, one needs to train

and practice, practice, practice.



I am out of shape now.  When I go out to fly, I ease myself into more

demanding maneuvers as I get reacquainted with my airplane.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

UltrastarFlyer

Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

Boy here you go again... Not even close. 

FAR 91.303



"...For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight." 



Maybe you were confused with the FAR that requires parachutes?



Just because you have a computer doesn't give you the right to fabricate or worse, misquote regulations. Please consider there are many new pilots here that are impressionable and unfortunately might take your nonsense as fact or law.  It's your responsibility to ONLY post fact. If you don't know then use words like " I think" or "I don't know".  To continue to do otherwise is disingenuous and irresponsible. 



Just sayin...



 	  victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: 	
		  By normal flight training standards, based on very old memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle  45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot training).





The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous" in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around with these kinds of maneuvers.



The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria. 



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme <constrjh> wrote:



 Subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM

 

 

 "flywithme" <constrjh>

 

 i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a

 steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb.

 is this really such a dangerous maneuver

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

_________________
1984 Kolb Ultrastar
Cuyuna ULII-02
Ultraprop
252 lbs

UltrastarFlyer

Joined: 01 Aug 2016
Posts: 5

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

Boy here you go again... Not even close. 

FAR 91.303



"...For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight." 



Maybe you were confused with the FAR that requires parachutes?



Just because you have a computer doesn't give you the right to fabricate or worse, misquote regulations. Please consider there are many new pilots here that are impressionable and unfortunately might take your nonsense as fact or law.  It's your responsibility to ONLY post fact. If you don't know then use words like " I think" or "I don't know".  To continue to do otherwise is disingenuous and irresponsible. 



Just sayin...



 	  victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: 	
		  By normal flight training standards, based on very old memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle  45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot training).





The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous" in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around with these kinds of maneuvers.



The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria. 



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme <constrjh> wrote:



 Subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM

 

 

 "flywithme" <constrjh>

 

 i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a

 steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb.

 is this really such a dangerous maneuver

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

_________________
1984 Kolb Ultrastar
Cuyuna ULII-02
Ultraprop
252 lbs

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:53 am Post subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

To Ultrastarflyer:  I have noticed that you are fairly new to the list, and that you have several recent double posts - a second identical post a couple minutes after the first.  

This list server is often very slow to update. When you push the "Submit" button, go get a cup of coffee or find something else to do for a bit. It will eventually get posted. You don't need to get impatient and submit it again.

Shalom

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:26 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

What's going on here, Crankpot? Did I take your parking spot at the grocery store, or did I steal your bike when we were kids or something? 

I'd like to understand what has made you irritated enough with me that you go back over two months (May 6) on this list, and find something that I wrote (in response to a completely different subject), and then try to lambaste me over it as if I was spreading false information. FIRST, let's address the inference that I am spreading false or misleading information, and harming innocent new pilots in the process:

91.303 may indeed say that "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an

 aircraft's attitude..."  and I accept that that definition of aerobatics exists in the FAR (or 14CFR nowdays).

BUT... as you yourself pointed out... there is also ANOTHER definition of aerobatics that is directly relevant to what I had mentioned.

Take a look at this description from EAA where they reference the FAR 91.307 aerobatics

https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/homebuilt-aircraft-and-homebuilt-aircraft-kits/frequently-asked-questions/parachutes-during-aerobatics

I believe you will find that IN ADDITION to the one regulation you are hanging your argument on, another equally valid regulation mentions parachutes and aerobatics in reference to the 60 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch that I had mentioned in my post.

So, here is a way to validate your argument, and perhaps you can make me look like an idiot in the process... Have 10 instructors read BOTH of the FAR sections that have been referenced here. The one that says "... abrupt change..." and the one that says "... a bank exceeding 60 degrees..." Ask these instructors if they think the FAA considers over 60 degrees of bank an aerobatic maneuver or not. 

If the majority of those instructors say "No, a bank of over 60 degrees or pitch angle over 30 degrees is not an aerobatic maneuver", then I'm an idiot and my opinion posted on this list back in May was wrong.

Now, back to the larger problem. Have the guts to explain exactly what it is that I have done, said, written, or thought that has made you dislike me enough to have tried to skewer me on this list when I have not done any such thing to you. Is it the color of my skin, my religion, my politics? Have we met someplace before and I was a jackass to you? You have every right to like or dislike me at your discretion, but just as pilots have a responsibility to not spread BS you have a responsibility to stand behind your statements and/or your dislike for me.

Bill Berle

Kolb Firestar 2

Cessna 172

Los Angeles

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/2/16, UltrastarFlyer <Crankpot(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2016, 7:26 PM

 "UltrastarFlyer" <Crankpot(at)gmail.com>

 Boy here you go again... Not even close. 

 FAR 91.303

 "...For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means

 an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an

 aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal

 acceleration, not necessary for normal flight." 

 Maybe you were confused with the FAR that requires

 parachutes?

 Just because you have a computer doesn't give you the right

 to fabricate or worse, misquote regulations. Please consider

 there are many new pilots here that are impressionable and

 unfortunately might take your nonsense as fact or law. 

 It's your responsibility to ONLY post fact. If you don't

 know then use words like " I think" or "I don't know". 

 To continue to do otherwise is disingenuous and

 irresponsible. 

 Just sayin...

 victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:

 > By normal flight training standards, based on very old

 memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle 

 45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep

 turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at

 least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot

 training).

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from

 level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees

 of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that

 exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or

 loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous"

 in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges

 or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can

 easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that

 the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and

 THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get

 aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around

 with these kinds of maneuvers.

 > 

 > The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It

 does not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a

 Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and

 do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria. 

 > 

 > Bill Berle

 > www.ezflaphandle.comÂ  - safety & performance

 upgrade for light aircraft

 > www.grantstar.net Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  - winning

 proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 > 

 > --------------------------------------------

 > On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme  wrote:

 > 

 >  Subject: Re: ground aerobatics...

 >  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 >  Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM

 >  

 >  

 >  "flywithme" 

 >  

 >  i see in some posts reference to the first pilot

 making a

 >  steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver

 in a kolb.

 >  is this really such a dangerous maneuver

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  Read this topic online here:

 >  

 >  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  

 >  Forum -

 >  Â Â Â - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 >  MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 >  List Contribution Web Site -

 >  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt

 >  Dralle, List Admin.

 --------

 1984 Kolb Ultrastar

 Cuyuna ULII-02

 Ultraprop

 252 lbs

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459136#459136

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

Why don't you two take your differences back copy.  I'm not interested and pretty sure no one else is.  If there are those on the List that are interested, they can join you all back copy also.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:31 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

John H and Kolbers, I have no quarrel or difference with this person. Don't even know how he is. I have no idea what I did that made him upset, and I will apologize if I owe one. But instead of offline or back copy, he more or less called my integrity into question here on the main list. The only thing I have done is address his challenges directly, and to be honest I used some amount of restraint.



1) Perhaps the Kolb list participants who have read both of these exchanges between he and I can comment on whether they think my responses have been appropriate or not, and whether it is Crankpot or myself that needs some more dual instruction.



2) If the members of this list and/or the forum administrator feel that Crankpot was within his rights and privileges to fire a shot across my bow, but I am not within my rights or privileges to fire back, then let me know that too, and I will "govern myself accordingly" to quote another famous aviation internet forum.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 8/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



 Subject: RE: Re: ground aerobatics...

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016, 10:53 AM

 

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Why don't you two take your differences back copy.  I'm

 not interested and pretty sure no one else is.  If

 there are those on the List that are interested, they can

 join you all back copy also.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

Why don't you knock this crap off.



I am respectfully asking you and your buddy to play this game somewhere else besides the Kolb List.



I'm too old to waste my time deleting this crap.



I may be the only one that does not appreciate the conflict between you two, but I am expressing my request.



This is a List for building and flying Kolb aircraft.  This is not the place to settle pissing contests.



john h -  Never gotten above the rank of member in 18.5 years.  Wonder why?

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



 




 



1) Perhaps the Kolb list participants who have read both of these exchanges between he and I can comment on whether they think my responses have been appropriate or not, and whether it is Crankpot or myself that needs some more dual instruction.



2) If the members of this list and/or the forum administrator feel that Crankpot was within his rights and privileges to fire a shot across my bow, but I am not within my rights or privileges to fire back, then let me know that too, and I will "govern myself accordingly" to quote another famous aviation internet forum.



Bill Berle

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:24 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

Well, to start, you could set a good example by voicing your complaints 

privately to both individuals, instead of posting it to the entire list. 



This is a more or less open list. If you don't like an open format, you 

could start a closed, censored forum like those of us who fly RV's are 

forced to live with on VAF. While you might prefer that format, those of 

us who enjoy thinking for ourselves and being able to speak our thoughts 

prefer the more open format we have here.



Bill,



I can totally understand & support your need to respond to Crankpot, but 

I'm reminded of the old saw about getting in the mud with a pig.



Charlie



On 8/3/2016 2:09 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Why don't you knock this crap off.



 I am respectfully asking you and your buddy to play this game somewhere else besides the Kolb List.



 I'm too old to waste my time deleting this crap.



 I may be the only one that does not appreciate the conflict between you two, but I am expressing my request.



 This is a List for building and flying Kolb aircraft.  This is not the place to settle pissing contests.



 john h -  Never gotten above the rank of member in 18.5 years.  Wonder why?

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama



   

 



   



 1) Perhaps the Kolb list participants who have read both of these exchanges between he and I can comment on whether they think my responses have been appropriate or not, and whether it is Crankpot or myself that needs some more dual instruction.



 2) If the members of this list and/or the forum administrator feel that Crankpot was within his rights and privileges to fire a shot across my bow, but I am not within my rights or privileges to fire back, then let me know that too, and I will "govern myself accordingly" to quote another famous aviation internet forum.



 Bill Berle

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: ground aerobatics...

I second that emotion, all in favor- say aye!Larry

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:09 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Why don't you knock this crap off.

 

 I am respectfully asking you and your buddy to play this game somewhere else besides the Kolb List.

 

 I'm too old to waste my time deleting this crap.

 

 I may be the only one that does not appreciate the conflict between you two, but I am expressing my request.

 

 This is a List for building and flying Kolb aircraft.  This is not the place to settle pissing contests.

 

 john h -  Never gotten above the rank of member in 18.5 years.  Wonder why?

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 

 

 1) Perhaps the Kolb list participants who have read both of these exchanges between he and I can comment on whether they think my responses have been appropriate or not, and whether it is Crankpot or myself that needs some more dual instruction.

 

 2) If the members of this list and/or the forum administrator feel that Crankpot was within his rights and privileges to fire a shot across my bow, but I am not within my rights or privileges to fire back, then let me know that too, and I will "govern myself accordingly" to quote another famous aviation internet forum.

 

 Bill Berle

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	




-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

_________________
do not archive

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:01 pm Post subject: ground aerobatics...

I have sent an e-mail asking the forum owner/administrator for his opinion on this apparent conflict. His opinion will carry the most weight with me. 



I'm pretty sure that my responses to Crankpot on these two discussion threads were more restrained than his original posts.



Once again I'll offer an apology to anyone I accidentally offended, although I don't make a habit of allowing people to poke at me with impunity... especially when I was not the aggressor in either exchange. 



Bill Berle



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 8/3/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Re: ground aerobatics...

 To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2016, 12:41 PM

 

 I second that

 emotion, all in favor- say aye!Larry

 On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at

 1:09 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 wrote:

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 

 

 Why don't you knock this crap off.

 

 

 

 I am respectfully asking you and your buddy to play this

 game somewhere else besides the Kolb List.

 

 

 

 I'm too old to waste my time deleting this crap.

 

 

 

 I may be the only one that does not appreciate the conflict

 between you two, but I am expressing my request.

 

 

 

 This is a List for building and flying Kolb aircraft.  This

 is not the place to settle pissing contests.

 

 

 

 john h -  Never gotten above the rank of member in 18.5

 years.  Wonder why?

 

 mkIII

 

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 1) Perhaps the Kolb list participants who have read both of

 these exchanges between he and I can comment on whether they

 think my responses have been appropriate or not, and whether

 it is Crankpot or myself that needs some more dual

 instruction.

 

 

 

 2) If the members of this list and/or the forum

 administrator feel that Crankpot was within his rights and

 privileges to fire a shot across my bow, but I am not within

 my rights or privileges to fire back, then let me know that

 too, and I will "govern myself accordingly" to

 quote another famous aviation internet forum.

 

 

 

 Bill Berle

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 

 -List" rel="noreferrer"

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 

 ===========

 

  FORUMS -

 

 eferrer"

 target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 

 ===========

 

 WIKI -

 

 errer"

 target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 

 ===========

 

 b Site -

 

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 rel="noreferrer"

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 

 ===========

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -- 

 The

 older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are

 intolerant of others.

 If you forward this email, or any part of

 it, please remove my email address before sending.

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:13 pm Post subject: ground aerobatics...

For all of the new people on the List, it is customary to delete previous info from a reply.  Leave just enough so that the conversation can be followed.  If you just make a comment without any future research content, please put "do not archive" in the message, so it doesn't clog the servers. 

  

do not archive



                                                 Bill Sullivan

  

  

  

  Why don't you knock this crap off.

    

  

  This is a List for building and flying Kolb aircraft. 

 This

  is not the place to settle pissing contests.

  

  

  

  john h -  Never gotten above the rank of member in 18.5

  years.  Wonder why?

wrk2win4u

Joined: 12 Nov 2011
Posts: 30

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: ground aerobatics...

�� Aye!

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 On Aug 3, 2016, at 13:45, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		    I second that emotion, all in favor- say aye! Larry

 

 

 On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:09 PM, John Hauck  <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Why don't you knock this crap off.

 

 I am respectfully asking you and your buddy to play this game somewhere else besides the Kolb List.

 

 I'm too old to waste my time deleting this crap.

 

 I may be the only one that does not appreciate the conflict between you two, but I am expressing my request.

 

 This is a List for building and flying Kolb aircraft.  This is not the place to settle pissing contests.

 

 john h -  Never gotten above the rank of member in 18.5 years.  Wonder why?

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 

 

 1) Perhaps the Kolb list participants who have read both of these exchanges between he and I can comment on whether they think my responses have been appropriate or not, and whether it is Crankpot or myself that needs some more dual instruction.

 

 2) If the members of this list and/or the forum administrator feel that Crankpot was within his rights and privileges to fire a shot across my bow, but I am not within my rights or privileges to fire back, then let me know that too, and I will "govern myself  accordingly" to quote another famous aviation internet forum.

 

 Bill Berle

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	
 

 

  

 

 -- 

       The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.

 

 

 If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

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