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Just checking

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:22 pm Post subject: Just checking

Dear all

I just want to check that I understand the fundamental concept of the electrical system

All the loads (with some exceptions) are connected to the buss bar.

When the engine is not running the battery powers everything.Â 

Once the engine is running the alternator powers everything and charges the battery.Â  So the flow sort of reverses as soon as the alternator comes on line.

Do I understand correctly?





William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Just checking

Absolutely nothing can be ascertained until we have direct visualization 

of your circuit diagrams AS BUILT.  To much variation in the wild to claim anything about home built aircraft. Any other comment here would be pure surmise

_________________
Ira N224XS

spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:44 am Post subject: Re: Just checking

Hi William. You should post your electrical questions in the AeroElectrical section of the Matronics List. I too have had problems getting my head around this part of my build but stick with it......after a few months things start to make a bit more sense. Good luck



Frank

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:08 am Post subject: Just checking

Ira

 I followed the europa wiring diagram exactly

 Will 

On Sep 10, 2016 20:55, "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Absolutely nothing can be ascertained until we have direct visualization

 of your circuit diagrams AS BUILT.Â  To much variation in the wild to claim anything about home built aircraft. Any other comment here would be pure surmise

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460399#460399

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ====================================

 pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Just checking

Hi Will,



If you are using the minimalist Europa power system, then in general, your

surmise is correct. The battery supplies power to the "grid" when the 

alternator produces less than the charging voltage (say 12V for the sake of 

simplicity). When the alternator generates its full voltage  or approximately

13.6V, it pushes energy back into the battery and is the source of buss power.



That being said, I have seen a few very crazy things done in OBAM aircraft.

Also, I dare say no one outside the UK uses the exact design provided by

Europa. My own power system uses a "carefully" considered modification of Bob Nuckolls' designs. The advantage of going beyond the minimalist

design includes mainly removal of critical single point failure nodes and the inclusion of secondary sources (I have a second alternator and battery for 

the EFIS as I used to do IFR ops).



I have also recently seen crazy things done to other engine systems. A local elderly gent with a kitfox installed a shutoff valve in his oil reservoir return

line deep inside his cowl to prevent sumping after shutdown.  Of course, he

eventually forgot to reach in and turn it back on at some point and completely

bricked his 912s.



This is why I ask for design as built when people ask for troubleshooting help.

_________________
Ira N224XS

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:27 am Post subject: Just checking

Ira

Interesting design addition you mention.Â  Understand your point.

Actually I am going for minimalist Europa System. Â  Â So thanks I just wanted to check that I had the fundamentals correct.

I do have a Dynon but that has its own battery and I have a good handheld and a portable GPS so I figure that from the avionics side I am ok. Â  Incidentally I fired the dynon and the electrical system up yesterday and it talked to all the devices and no sparks or smoke.Â  The radio worked fine as well. Â Â 

My turbo rotax 912 has a mechanical pump as well as the electric pumps. Â 

So I think that I am going to stick with simple.

many thanks again will

William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744



 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:45 AM, rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi Will,

 

 If you are using the minimalist Europa power system, then in general, your

 surmise is correct. The battery supplies power to the "grid" when the

 alternator produces less than the charging voltage (say 12V for the sake of

 simplicity). When the alternator generates its full voltageÂ  or approximately

 13.6V, it pushes energy back into the battery and is the source of buss power.

 

 That being said, I have seen a few very crazy things done in OBAM aircraft.

 Also, I dare say no one outside the UK uses the exact design provided by

 Europa. My own power system uses a "carefully" considered modification of Bob Nuckolls' designs. The advantage of going beyond the minimalist

 design includes mainly removal of critical single point failure nodes and the inclusion of secondary sources (I have a second alternator and battery for

 the EFIS as I used to do IFR ops).

 

 I have also recently seen crazy things done to other engine systems. A local elderly gent with a kitfox installed a shutoff valve in his oil reservoir return

 line deep inside his cowl to prevent sumping after shutdown.Â  Of course, he

 eventually forgot to reach in and turn it back on at some point and completely

 bricked his 912s.

 

 This is why I ask for design as built when people ask for troubleshooting help.

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460424#460424

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ====================================

 pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Just checking

Hi Will,



I realize that you did not inquire of design advise, but I will offer some

anyway.  The dirt simple electrical system in the combined builder's manual

has a single 30A SloBlo fuse between the battery and the 914 fuel pump.

If that goes, there is no other way to power the pump and bye bye. I really

hate single point fatal errors.  It was bad enough that I had to deal with them

in my day job!

_________________
Ira N224XS

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:31 am Post subject: Just checking

Ah thanks.much appreciated.Â  All advice gratefuly received.Â  I have learned so much from reading the posts of others. 

 I have one pump connected direct to the alternator and the other to the bus.Â  (As well as the mechanical pump which is good for 22" map).

 Would that be ok?

 Will

  

On Sep 12, 2016 14:18, "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi Will,

 

 I realize that you did not inquire of design advise, but I will offer some

 anyway.Â  The dirt simple electrical system in the combined builder's manual

 has a single 30A SloBlo fuse between the battery and the 914 fuel pump.

 If that goes, there is no other way to power the pump and bye bye. I really

 hate single point fatal errors.Â  It was bad enough that I had to deal with them

 in my day job!

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460443#460443

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ====================================

 pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:19 pm Post subject: Just checking

I’ll second Ira’s suggestion to go to AeroElectrics at Matronics…Bob Nuckolls is a true guru for all things electric…has been very helpful to me w/ my electrically-dependent engine, particularly w/ regards to developing my “plan B” in the event things go south while airborne…his book is a treasure…he does not, however, suffer fools gladly.



F.



PS: For the curious, I am focusing on getting my cooling system to do the job while Miz. E is sitting on the ground.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:45 AM, rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Will,

 

 If you are using the minimalist Europa power system, then in general, your

 surmise is correct. The battery supplies power to the "grid" when the 

 alternator produces less than the charging voltage (say 12V for the sake of 

 simplicity). When the alternator generates its full voltage  or approximately

 13.6V, it pushes energy back into the battery and is the source of buss power.

 

 That being said, I have seen a few very crazy things done in OBAM aircraft.

 Also, I dare say no one outside the UK uses the exact design provided by

 Europa. My own power system uses a "carefully" considered modification of Bob Nuckolls' designs. The advantage of going beyond the minimalist

 design includes mainly removal of critical single point failure nodes and the inclusion of secondary sources (I have a second alternator and battery for 

 the EFIS as I used to do IFR ops).

 

 I have also recently seen crazy things done to other engine systems. A local elderly gent with a kitfox installed a shutoff valve in his oil reservoir return

 line deep inside his cowl to prevent sumping after shutdown.  Of course, he

 eventually forgot to reach in and turn it back on at some point and completely

 bricked his 912s.

 

 This is why I ask for design as built when people ask for troubleshooting help.

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460424#460424

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:03 pm Post subject: Just checking

Fred

Yup I did download and read the book cover to cover and I am an avid reader of his forum. Â 

WIll

William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744



 

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

 

 Iâ€™ll second Iraâ€™s suggestion to go to AeroElectrics at Matronicsâ€¦Bob Nuckolls is a true guru for all things electricâ€¦has been very helpful to me w/ my electrically-dependent engine, particularly w/ regards to developing my â€œplan Bâ€ in the event things go south while airborneâ€¦his book is a treasureâ€¦he does not, however, suffer fools gladly.

 

 F.

 

 PS: For the curious, I am focusing on getting my cooling system to do the job while Miz. E is sitting on the ground.

 

 > On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:45 AM, rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > Hi Will,

 >

 > If you are using the minimalist Europa power system, then in general, your

 > surmise is correct. The battery supplies power to the "grid" when the

 > alternator produces less than the charging voltage (say 12V for the sake of

 > simplicity). When the alternator generates its full voltageÂ  or approximately

 > 13.6V, it pushes energy back into the battery and is the source of buss power.

 >

 > That being said, I have seen a few very crazy things done in OBAM aircraft.

 > Also, I dare say no one outside the UK uses the exact design provided by

 > Europa. My own power system uses a "carefully" considered modification of Bob Nuckolls' designs. The advantage of going beyond the minimalist

 > design includes mainly removal of critical single point failure nodes and the inclusion of secondary sources (I have a second alternator and battery for

 > the EFIS as I used to do IFR ops).

 >

 > I have also recently seen crazy things done to other engine systems. A local elderly gent with a kitfox installed a shutoff valve in his oil reservoir return

 > line deep inside his cowl to prevent sumping after shutdown.Â  Of course, he

 > eventually forgot to reach in and turn it back on at some point and completely

 > bricked his 912s.

 >

 > This is why I ask for design as built when people ask for troubleshooting help.

 >

 > --------

 > Ira N224XS

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460424#460424

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 

 ====================================

 pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

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