 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:38 pm Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
 |
|
Can Larry C, or Rick Girard, or anyone else who has an HKS engine on their Kolb tell me how they installed it in such a way that the exhaust pipes (where they come out of the cylinders) clears the aileron torque tubes when you fold or unfold the wings??
I am in the process of figuring out the engine mounting on my Firestar. There is a clear and obvious interference, and the only way I can see to completely avoid this interference is to raise the engine up about 6 inches from where it would normally sit on the mount plate.
Also, can anyone on the Kolb list tell me if it is possible or permissible to reverse the cylinders on the HKS, so that the exhaust pipes are on the opposite side from the gearbox? The cylinders are not identical, meaning that there is a left and a right cylinder. But IF it is possible to reverse them (move the right cylinder to the left side of the engine and vice versa), that would also resolve the interference mentioned above. I know I can contact the engie importer and ask this, but since I'm sending this to the Kolb list I figured I'd ask here too.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 9/17/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: video
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Saturday, September 17, 2016, 7:08 AM
The group didn't
get enough time to explore Mickey Basin, so we took off
again to do a bit more exploring. The nice part about the
area is that we can land our planes and spend as much time
on foot as we can stand. The area was the site of an early
ranch, and has the remains of a building on it. It was
pretty primitive at best, and I would hope that the
conditions were different from what they are today. I know
for sure that I wouldn't want to live there full time.
The feral horses are attracted to the area because there are
quite a few seeps and springs.
The house wasn't all that big, even when it
was all standing, and was made of native stone and held
together with mud from the lake. The western term for the
place would have been a "Rawhide" outfit. Denoting
that it was held together with hide and scraps. Apparently
baling wire hadn't been invented yet.
https://vimeo.com/183088265
password, owyheeflyer
Larry
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:51 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Bill, I'm attaching the service manual for the HKS. Maybe you can use that to check about the cylinders. As for raising the engine, had something similar on the PfH, see photo, didn't work worth a darn on a mk 3X.
Rick
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Can Larry C, or Rick Girard, or anyone else who has an HKS engine on their Kolb tell me how they installed it in such a way that the exhaust pipes (where they come out of the cylinders) clears the aileron torque tubes when you fold or unfold the wings??
I am in the process of figuring out the engine mounting on my Firestar. There is a clear and obvious interference, and the only way I can see to completely avoid this interference is to raise the engine up about 6 inches from where it would normally sit on the mount plate.
Also, can anyone on the Kolb list tell me if it is possible or permissible to reverse the cylinders on the HKS, so that the exhaust pipes are on the opposite side from the gearbox? The cylinders are not identical, meaning that there is a left and a right cylinder. But IF it is possible to reverse them (move the right cylinder to the left side of the engine and vice versa), that would also resolve the interference mentioned above. I know I can contact the engie importer and ask this, but since I'm sending this to the Kolb list I figured I'd ask here too.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 9/17/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: video
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Saturday, September 17, 2016, 7:08 AM
The group didn't
get enough time to explore Mickey Basin, so we took off
again to do a bit more exploring. The nice part about the
area is that we can land our planes and spend as much time
on foot as we can stand. The area was the site of an early
ranch, and has the remains of a building on it. It was
pretty primitive at best, and I would hope that the
conditions were different from what they are today. I know
for sure that I wouldn't want to live there full time.
The feral horses are attracted to the area because there are
quite a few seeps and springs.
The house wasn't all that big, even when it
was all standing, and was made of native stone and held
together with mud from the lake. The western term for the
place would have been a "Rawhide" outfit. Denoting
that it was held together with hide and scraps. Apparently
baling wire hadn't been invented yet.
https://vimeo.com/183088265
password, owyheeflyer
Larry
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
====================================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.” Groucho Marx
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
805.99 KB |
| Viewed: |
12109 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
Download |
| Filename: |
HKS_Service_Manual_v2-02.pdf |
| Filesize: |
1.75 MB |
| Downloaded: |
708 Time(s) |
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:05 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Bill, Did some looking and there's a photo of the engine case on the bottom of page 25 that shows that the cylinders aren't symmetrical on the mounting boss. You'd also have to have a new cam ground to get the valve timing correct.
Rick
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Bill, I'm attaching the service manual for the HKS. Maybe you can use that to check about the cylinders. As for raising the engine, had something similar on the PfH, see photo, didn't work worth a darn on a mk 3X.
Rick
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
Can Larry C, or Rick Girard, or anyone else who has an HKS engine on their Kolb tell me how they installed it in such a way that the exhaust pipes (where they come out of the cylinders) clears the aileron torque tubes when you fold or unfold the wings??
I am in the process of figuring out the engine mounting on my Firestar. There is a clear and obvious interference, and the only way I can see to completely avoid this interference is to raise the engine up about 6 inches from where it would normally sit on the mount plate.
Also, can anyone on the Kolb list tell me if it is possible or permissible to reverse the cylinders on the HKS, so that the exhaust pipes are on the opposite side from the gearbox? The cylinders are not identical, meaning that there is a left and a right cylinder. But IF it is possible to reverse them (move the right cylinder to the left side of the engine and vice versa), that would also resolve the interference mentioned above. I know I can contact the engie importer and ask this, but since I'm sending this to the Kolb list I figured I'd ask here too.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 9/17/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Subject: video
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Saturday, September 17, 2016, 7:08 AM
The group didn't
get enough time to explore Mickey Basin, so we took off
again to do a bit more exploring. The nice part about the
area is that we can land our planes and spend as much time
on foot as we can stand. The area was the site of an early
ranch, and has the remains of a building on it. It was
pretty primitive at best, and I would hope that the
conditions were different from what they are today. I know
for sure that I wouldn't want to live there full time.
The feral horses are attracted to the area because there are
quite a few seeps and springs.
The house wasn't all that big, even when it
was all standing, and was made of native stone and held
together with mud from the lake. The western term for the
place would have been a "Rawhide" outfit. Denoting
that it was held together with hide and scraps. Apparently
baling wire hadn't been invented yet.
https://vimeo.com/183088265
password, owyheeflyer
Larry
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
====================================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.” Groucho Marx
|
--
“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.” Groucho Marx
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:43 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Mine will clear using the same mounting as for a 503. You just have to hold the ailerons at a certain attitude when you fold, and that is only on the right side. There are different exhaust configurations available, none that I felt moved to explore. You would not like mounting the engine higher than absolutely necessary.
Larry
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
do not archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:51 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Thank you Larry, I will try that before I start making any changes or modifications or work-arounds. I was indeed trying to keep the engine as low as possible, with the "gearbox low" engine configuration.
It was already obvious to this old washed up model airplane builder that the thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handling ! But it is good to hear that my own instinct matched the actual real-world experience of Kolb flyers.
I tried to look up anything in the archives that addressed this problem, and it seems thata a David Bigelow in hawaii had this same concern on his Firestar.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 9/18/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, September 18, 2016, 5:42 AM
Mine
will clear using the same mounting as for a 503. You just
have to hold the ailerons at a certain attitude when you
fold, and that is only on the right side. There are
different exhaust configurations available, none that I felt
moved to explore. You would not like mounting the engine
higher than absolutely necessary. Larry
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:52 am Post subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Not to hijack the thread - but why is that 582 in Rick's picture mounted up so high? To clear the starter?
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:28 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handling >>
No it doesn`t. This is always a criticism levelled at planes with a higher than usual thrust line. In practice it makes no difference that your normal flying instincts can`t cope with automatically. If you are pushing your speed envelope from high to low, say when you switch from cruise to landing approach speed you may have to re trim but so what, you will have to retrim as the flaps come down anyway. Good luck. Pat
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: 18 September 2016 18:47:49
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Thank you Larry, I will try that before I start making any changes or modifications or work-arounds. I was indeed trying to keep the engine as low as possible, with the "gearbox low" engine configuration.
It was already obvious to this old washed up model airplane builder that the thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handling ! But it is good to hear that my own instinct matched the actual real-world experience of Kolb flyers.
I tried to look up anything in the archives that addressed this problem, and it seems thata a David Bigelow in hawaii had this same concern on his Firestar.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 9/18/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, September 18, 2016, 5:42 AM
Mine
will clear using the same mounting as for a 503. You just
have to hold the ailerons at a certain attitude when you
fold, and that is only on the right side. There are
different exhaust configurations available, none that I felt
moved to explore. You would not like mounting the engine
higher than absolutely necessary. Larry
===========
Email Forum -
-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:59 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Pat/All
One of my early reduction drive VW configurations I had a rather high thrust line. Flying solo I had to feed in power slowly so that I wouldn't nose over. The first time I flew with a passenger I found I had to reduce power to keep the thrust from overpowering my elevator on takeoff. With a passenger at low air speeds with full power and full up elevator it would not pitch up. At higher speeds it was just OK. I never.... attempted a go around with a passenger. Actually I never flew with a passenger again in that configuration. I switched fairly quick to the new VW engine mount that significantly lowered the engine. In this case the high trust line was down right dangerous.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com (patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handling >>
No it doesn`t. This is always a criticism levelled at planes with a higher than usual thrust line. In practice it makes no difference that your normal flying instincts can`t cope with automatically. If you are pushing your speed envelope from high to low, say when you switch from cruise to landing approach speed you may have to re trim but so what, you will have to retrim as the flaps come down anyway. Good luck. Pat
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Richard, The story, as I remember Travis telling it anyway, is that the last owner before it reached me had the guys in the Kolb shop mount the 582 on stilts for just the reason you ascribed to it. They didn't want to do it but the owner seemed, by the way he did everything else, to have no clue about what such would do to the prop inflow and overall drag. I never flew it that way. I moved the engine backward to clear the starter, changed the Rotax twin radiators to a single one from a Honda Magnum motorcycle, and dumped the intake silencer.
Rick
Rick
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
Not to hijack the thread - but why is that 582 in Rick's picture mounted up so high? To clear the starter?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460575#460575
====================================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
--
“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.” Groucho Marx
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:54 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Hi, I stood my Mk3 on its nose gunning it into 90 degree turn on my first outing. After that I paid more attention to keeping the stick hard back when taxying. The fist time I flew a passenger she woudn`t unstick and I just made it out of my field over the hedge. I hadn`t put in extra `up` trim to compensate. When I did, she was fine. I put both incidents down to incompetent piloting, not particularly to the high thrust line though that no doubt contributed. Neither mistake happened again and as I suggested, normal piloting skills took care of it. The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
Sent: 19 September 2016 14:59:30
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Pat/All
One of my early reduction drive VW configurations I had a rather high thrust line. Flying solo I had to feed in power slowly so that I wouldn't nose over. The first time I flew with a passenger I found I had to reduce power to keep the thrust from overpowering my elevator on takeoff. With a passenger at low air speeds with full power and full up elevator it would not pitch up. At higher speeds it was just OK. I never.... attempted a go around with a passenger. Actually I never flew with a passenger again in that configuration. I switched fairly quick to the new VW engine mount that significantly lowered the engine. In this case the high trust line was down right dangerous.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com (patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handling >>
No it doesn`t. This is always a criticism levelled at planes with a higher than usual thrust line. In practice it makes no difference that your normal flying instincts can`t cope with automatically. If you are pushing your speed envelope from high to low, say when you switch from cruise to landing approach speed you may have to re trim but so what, you will have to retrim as the flaps come down anyway. Good luck. Pat
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Pat wrote:The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat
When you firewall the engine and the plane dives for the ground rather than up, you have a problem!
Just saying,
Larry
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
do not archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:13 am Post subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended. The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are not known or anticipated that bad things happen.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying.
I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that.
You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that you would want to go out driving for fun?
Bill Berle
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Bill/All
Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line. You have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so that it will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low as you can but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage tube. Even doing this you will need to make some adjustment in your flying technique. Add power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power reduce back pressure or add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff will not likely include full power with locked brakes at least not for very long.
A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW mount was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The redrive moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early testing revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on the ground solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a passenger I found I couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because I would run out of up elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass strip and just ran along the ground, no elevator position all the way back to the up stop would allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power and it jumped off the ground. Playing with lower power and higher air speeds I got a decent climb rate. I would really like to hear how improving piloting skills would fix this. Lowering the engine improved everything including a bit of increased climb rate and speeds. So from the extreme lowering the thrust line does considerably help Kolb performance. I just thought my experience might add to the discussion.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying.
I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that.
You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that you would want to go out driving for fun?
Bill Berle
====================================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Radegast
Joined: 06 Aug 2016
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:38 pm Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
How about giving us a list of the quirks and procedures?
On 9/20/2016 Tuesday 11:13 AM, Richard Pike wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)
Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended. The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are not known or anticipated that bad things happen.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618
|
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Kolbers:
It takes flying skills unique to the Kolb high thrust line aircraft to fly the aircraft safely. That is with the thrust line in the standard position. Any position higher than standard is dangerous for reason stated by Rick Neilsen.
Upgrading from an 80 to a 100 hp 912, I thought something was wrong with my MKIII when it did not immediately break ground on takeoff. I had to reduce power to get off the ground.
That high thrust line is like a giant lever, pushing the nose down the more power is added. In Rick's case it overpowered the elevator. Something else to think about, the higher the thrust line reduces prop wash over the elevators.
Close proximity of the prop tips to the tail boom did not present a problem on my MKIII. I have flown with props as close as 3/4". This was thoroughly tested and proven to be safe after making two successful flights from Alabama to Alaska.
Good pilots listen to good advice. Rick N's advice is good and well taken.
I have often wondered how much better my Kolb Firestar and MKIII would have flown with a tractor engine. My Ultrastar flew well and much more like a tractor engine with the engine mounted under the tail boom. The center of thrust was in the center of the pilot's back. One reason the Ultrastar looped much easier than the Firestar.
john h
Near Burns Junction, Oregon
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:00 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Bill/All
Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line. You have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so that it will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low as you can but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage tube. Even doing this you will need to make some adjustment in your flying technique. Add power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power reduce back pressure or add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff will not likely include full power with locked brakes at least not for very long.
A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW mount was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The redrive moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early testing revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on the ground solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a passenger I found I couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because I would run out of up elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass strip and just ran along the ground, no elevator position all the way back to the up stop would allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power and it jumped off the ground. Playing with lower power and higher air speeds I got a decent climb rate. I would really like to hear how improving piloting skills would fix this. Lowering the engine improved everything including a bit of increased climb rate and speeds. So from the extreme lowering the thrust line does considerably help Kolb performance. I just thought my experience might add to the discussion.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying.
I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that.
You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that you would want to go out driving for fun?
Bill Berle
====================================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
[quote="Radegast"]How about giving us a list of the quirks and procedures? [quote]
That is what this thread has become. What Rick said. What John said.
But since you asked for my $.02, my personal experience is that in the MKIII, if you have a big passenger, and abort an approach/need to go around; flaps are not your friend and you will very nearly run out of elevator authority if you leave them down. That is why I have VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab, and the stab is gap sealed to the elevators.
When doing departure stalls, at the break you should aggressively push the nose over but do not add any power until the airplane is fully recovered and flying. Full throttle with a high thrust line and a stalled/non-flying wing can rotate you around the center of drag/mass quite smartly. Probably more than you wanted.
That is all I can think of that has not already been addressed.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:20 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Thanks Richard. I seem to be digging myself into a hole here. Pat
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Sent: 20 September 2016 18:13:40
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended. The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are not known or anticipated that bad things happen.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618
===========
Email Forum -
-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:32 am Post subject: HKS Engine Installation |
|
|
Succinctly put Larry. Of course you are dead right, but I thought that scenario was rather outside the bounds of the discussion. Pat
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
Sent: 20 September 2016 18:05
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Pat wrote:The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat
When you firewall the engine and the plane dives for the ground rather than up, you have a problem!
Just saying,
Larry
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
