Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Wing Tip Spads

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Things have been slow lately so...

Some time ago there was a discussion about putting a flat surface on the end of the aileron balance rods. The intent was to lighten the control pressure on the stick. The elevators are very light but the ailerons are heavy, so wouldn't it be nice to have them more balanced. 

I never liked the idea of changing the mechanical advantage at the expense of less defection. There could be times on takeoff or landing that turbulence might require all 

you can get out of your ailerons.

It seems like someone tried balance rod fin and it didn't work. I don't know the details or how much they experimented with it. I think I saw a Kolb with this on their plane at Sun N Fun or Oshkosh in the last year and wonder if anyone knows anything about it.

I have wanted to do something to better balance the control forces on my plane. Years ago I welded up a pair of balance weights with with a fin on it (spad). I never installed it for fear that it would be too powerful and snatch the aileron to full defection or cause some flutter. I have also pondered how or what angle to set the fin to align the fin with the airflow off the wing tip.

Any thoughts or information out there.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

You can put on aileron spades, many aerobatic aircraft use them of course. But for both safety and function, they would have to be in the center of the aileron instead of out at the tip, and then this would possibly cause problems when folding the wings.



There is of course the flutter question on top of any other problem. A properly trained engineer (a flutter-trained dynamics guy, not just an aero engineering degree) wouuld have to look at it and determine whether the wall thickness of the leading edge tube would have enough stiffness. Not "strength", but stiffness... to prevent the whole thing from starting to swing back and forth and become "excited" into a flutter mode.



The aileron structure of the Kolb was ALREADY prone to flutter, which is why the balance rods became a mandatory upgrade/option. Puting the spades out at the end may or may not be safe to do, but there are only a handful of people who are qualified to make that determination.



A "servo tab" is another way to reduce the control forces, and it also comes with its own concerns and problems.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 12/24/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Wing Tip Spads

 To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Saturday, December 24, 2016, 8:53 AM

 

 Things have been slow lately

 so...

 Some time ago there was a

 discussion about putting a flat surface on the end of the

 aileron balance rods. The intent was to lighten the control

 pressure on the stick. The elevators are very light but the

 ailerons are heavy, so wouldn't it be nice to have them

 more balanced. 

 I never liked the idea of changing

 the mechanical advantage at the expense of less defection.

 There could be times on takeoff or landing that turbulence

 might require all you can get out of your

 ailerons.

 It seems like someone tried balance

 rod fin and it didn't work. I don't know the details

 or how much they experimented with it. I think I saw a Kolb

 with this on their plane at Sun N Fun or Oshkosh in the last

 year and wonder if anyone knows anything about it.

 I have wanted to do something to

 better balance the control forces on my plane. Years ago I

 welded up a pair of balance weights with with a fin on it

 (spad). I never installed it for fear that it would be too

 powerful and snatch the aileron to full defection or cause

 some flutter. I have also pondered how or what angle to set

 the fin to align the fin with the airflow off the wing

 tip.

 Any thoughts or information out

 there.

 Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered

 MKIIIC

stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Interesting discussion. 



How about using multiple spades. Smaller of course and distributed along the aileron. Perhaps centered between the hinges.



If a bracket could be formed that would fit snuggly against the aileron tube and be big enough you could just pop rivet it on. For experimental purposes I would use screws to attach the spade to the bracket allowing for easy changes of size and shape. Could be permanently riveted once the experimenting was done.



I am thinking multiple but smaller spades will transmit lighter forces to the aileron tube and the rivets used to attach them but the cumulative effect would be applied to the entire aileron.



If the spade is in front of the hinge and aileron behind wouldn't they help reduce both flutter and control forces? Of course this would be at the expense of drag. 



Would spades add to adverse yaw or help control it?



How fast is a Firefly? Not fast enough to worry about these things. 



Merry Christmas everyone!



Stuart



--

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Wing Tip Spads

Rick, if you ever get anywhere near NE Tennessee, I hope you come and visit, I would love for you to fly my MKIII, I would consider it an honor. I reduced the aileron throw just a little, but the reduction in effort was remarkable. I think you would find the control authority to be non-compromised. 



Right now I am in the process of building a Firefly out of a wrecked original Firestar, and have built the aileron bellcrank so that we can find the "sweet spot" for rigging the ailerons. You might consider trying something similar, it is one of those things where if you try it and don't like it, you can put it back to where it was.



Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Kolb List!

P1050573 (Medium).JPG

Description:

Filesize:

171.48 KB

Viewed:

11834 Time(s)

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Richard

I appreciate the offer and have no doubt that your change works as you describe but you may have missed my point of concern. When you are near stall speed on takeoff and landing and you get into turbulence that can spell disaster you might need every degree of aileron deflection that Homer designed into our airplanes. I don't know that I have ever utilized full aileron deflection but my Kolb got me through what mother nature threw at me. It would have been a small consolation that is was easy to get to a aileron control stop that didn't save me. Yes I want it all, balanced controls, full defection and maybe no adverse yaw. But I can live with the stock configuration.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 Rick, if you ever get anywhere near NE Tennessee, I hope you come and visit, I would love for you to fly my MKIII, I would consider it an honor. I reduced the aileron throw just a little, but the reduction in effort was remarkable. I think you would find the control authority to be non-compromised.

 

 Right now I am in the process of building a Firefly out of a wrecked original Firestar, and have built the aileron bellcrank so that we can find the "sweet spot" for rigging the ailerons. You might consider trying something similar, it is one of those things where if you try it and don't like it, you can put it back to where it was.

 

 Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Kolb List!

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464380#464380

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050573_medium_120.jpg

 

 

 

 ====================================

 br> fts!)

 r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

 " rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ====================================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Don't know that I ever hit an aileron control stop in my MKIII, but did once in the factory Firefly at Sun and Fun one rear during extremely turbulent cross wind.  Got my attention.

 

Changing mechanical advantage is good as long as you still have enough lateral stick to get full deflection.

 

BTW:  My MKIII ailerons are a little smaller than standard.  Above 60 mph they start getting heavy.  In turbulent situations where a lot of aileron is required quickly, slow down around 50 or 60 and take care of business.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen

Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 11:37 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads



 

Richard



 



I appreciate the offer and have no doubt that your change works as you describe but you may have missed my point of concern. When you are near stall speed on takeoff and landing and you get into turbulence that can spell disaster you might need every degree of aileron deflection that Homer designed into our airplanes. I don't know that I have ever utilized full aileron deflection but my Kolb got me through what mother nature threw at me. It would have been a small consolation that is was easy to get to a aileron control stop that didn't save me. Yes I want it all, balanced controls, full defection and maybe no adverse yaw. But I can live with the stock configuration.



 



Rick Neilsen



Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 

On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>



Rick, if you ever get anywhere near NE Tennessee, I hope you come and visit, I would love for you to fly my MKIII, I would consider it an honor. I reduced the aileron throw just a little, but the reduction in effort was remarkable. I think you would find the control authority to be non-compromised.



Right now I am in the process of building a Firefly out of a wrecked original Firestar, and have built the aileron bellcrank so that we can find the "sweet spot" for rigging the ailerons. You might consider trying something similar, it is one of those things where if you try it and don't like it, you can put it back to where it was.



Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Kolb List!



--------

Richard Pike

Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Kingsport, TN 3TN0



Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464380#464380





Attachments:



http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050573_medium_120.jpg



====================================

br> fts!)

r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

====================================

-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

====================================

FORUMS -

eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

===========

WIKI -

errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

===========

b Site -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

The first line of my message below should have read "year", not "rear"  

 

Speaking of heavy ailerons, I complained to Homer once about those heavy ailerons.  He told me to be gentle.  The airplane will turn.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck

Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 11:56 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Wing Tip Spads

 

Don't know that I ever hit an aileron control stop in my MKIII, but did once in the factory Firefly at Sun and Fun one rear during extremely turbulent cross wind.  Got my attention.

 

Changing mechanical advantage is good as long as you still have enough lateral stick to get full deflection.

 

BTW:  My MKIII ailerons are a little smaller than standard.  Above 60 mph they start getting heavy.  In turbulent situations where a lot of aileron is required quickly, slow down around 50 or 60 and take care of business.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen

Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 11:37 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads



 

Richard



 



I appreciate the offer and have no doubt that your change works as you describe but you may have missed my point of concern. When you are near stall speed on takeoff and landing and you get into turbulence that can spell disaster you might need every degree of aileron deflection that Homer designed into our airplanes. I don't know that I have ever utilized full aileron deflection but my Kolb got me through what mother nature threw at me. It would have been a small consolation that is was easy to get to a aileron control stop that didn't save me. Yes I want it all, balanced controls, full defection and maybe no adverse yaw. But I can live with the stock configuration.



 



Rick Neilsen



Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 

On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>



Rick, if you ever get anywhere near NE Tennessee, I hope you come and visit, I would love for you to fly my MKIII, I would consider it an honor. I reduced the aileron throw just a little, but the reduction in effort was remarkable. I think you would find the control authority to be non-compromised.



Right now I am in the process of building a Firefly out of a wrecked original Firestar, and have built the aileron bellcrank so that we can find the "sweet spot" for rigging the ailerons. You might consider trying something similar, it is one of those things where if you try it and don't like it, you can put it back to where it was.



Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Kolb List!



--------

Richard Pike

Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Kingsport, TN 3TN0



Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464380#464380





Attachments:



http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050573_medium_120.jpg



====================================

br> fts!)

r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

====================================

-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

====================================

FORUMS -

eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

===========

WIKI -

errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

===========

b Site -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Rick and John are both right. I have always attempted to squeeze all the speed that I could out of my Firestar. Along with that comes increased aileron pressure. Of course any modification requires one to be able to accept the results for it to be effective. I tried moving the control arms in to lessen the load. Perhaps I didn't give it enough of a try, but I soon changed them back to original. John is right, when it gets rough, slow down. While it will take longer to get out of it, the forces are acceptable. I have gotten into the habit of using my knee to assist the stick movements. 



I once stalled at about 40 feet over the ground while doing "Too slow flight". The right wing dropped to where it was pointing at the ground. The ailerons were able to level me out and reduce the damage to the plane when I hit.The extra forces are caused when we are not flying it as it is intended to be flown. Now I have no intention of taking off the things that allow me to cruise at 70 + MPH. I am willing to suffer the consequences. Its all in what makes you happy.

Merry Christmas

Larry

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 10:56 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Don't know that I ever hit an aileron control stop in my MKIII, but did once in the factory Firefly at Sun and Fun one rear during extremely turbulent cross wind.  Got my attention.

 

Changing mechanical advantage is good as long as you still have enough lateral stick to get full deflection.

 

BTW:  My MKIII ailerons are a little smaller than standard.  Above 60 mph they start getting heavy.  In turbulent situations where a lot of aileron is required quickly, slow down around 50 or 60 and take care of business.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen

Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 11:37 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads



 

Richard



 



I appreciate the offer and have no doubt that your change works as you describe but you may have missed my point of concern. When you are near stall speed on takeoff and landing and you get into turbulence that can spell disaster you might need every degree of aileron deflection that Homer designed into our airplanes. I don't know that I have ever utilized full aileron deflection but my Kolb got me through what mother nature threw at me. It would have been a small consolation that is was easy to get to a aileron control stop that didn't save me. Yes I want it all, balanced controls, full defection and maybe no adverse yaw. But I can live with the stock configuration.



 



Rick Neilsen



Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 

On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>



Rick, if you ever get anywhere near NE Tennessee, I hope you come and visit, I would love for you to fly my MKIII, I would consider it an honor. I reduced the aileron throw just a little, but the reduction in effort was remarkable. I think you would find the control authority to be non-compromised.



Right now I am in the process of building a Firefly out of a wrecked original Firestar, and have built the aileron bellcrank so that we can find the "sweet spot" for rigging the ailerons. You might consider trying something similar, it is one of those things where if you try it and don't like it, you can put it back to where it was.



Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Kolb List!



--------

Richard Pike

Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Kingsport, TN 3TN0



Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464380#464380





Attachments:



http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050573_medium_120.jpg



====================================

br> fts!)

r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

====================================

-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

====================================

FORUMS -

eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

===========

WIKI -

errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

===========

b Site -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================





 



	




-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

_________________
do not archive

jimswan

Joined: 08 Sep 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Eaton Rapids, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:24 pm Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

The Firestar ll that I purchased several years ago had  aileron spades that could be detached from the aileron and that was the case when I looked at the plane....the owner showed them to me ..they were I thought quite big and I thought to myself that it made no sense to put such things on the ailerons and put all that pressure on the hinges...so I left them there…at that time I am not sure I knew what aileron spades were….....the seller was the 2nd owner of the plane.....later on I talked with the builder of the plane and he said the spades worked excellent and that I should have taken them.....after speaking with him I came away thinking he might know what he was talking about...

 

  --

_________________
Jim Swan

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wing Tip Spads

Been thinking about this for a couple of days and the more I think about it the more it sounds like a good idea. IMO my solution to heavy ailerons via reducing throw/leverage works quite well, (or it has for the last 15 years) but you guys certainly do have a point - what if you can have your cake and eat it too? And maybe we can?



One of the considerations on any Kolb is the aileron twisting force; you apply torque to the inboard end, and by the time that torque gets to the tip, you have a lot of pressure accumulating, and typically, the aileron tube will twist enough that you are not getting full deflection at the tip. Typically spades are placed at the mid point of the aileron, but then I notice that most aerobatic aircraft have the aileron pushrod at midpoint, so what they are doing is modifying a major piece of hardware to do two jobs, and that's cool, but that's not our situation. So what if we put some small spades at the tip? To counteract the twist of the aileron tube throughout it's length? And reduce stick pressure?



Since most of the (maybe all?) of the heavier Kolbs require aileron counterbalances, I wondered if it might be possible to install small spades on the front end of the counterbalance rod. I was told that this is a bad idea due to the vortex's / wash coming out from under the bottom of the wing and curling around the tip. 



What if you made stand off's to position the spade a couple inches away from the wing tip? Maybe a gap of 3 or 4 inches between the tip and the spade? (I am like; "Dude: we already have this sturdy rod coming out of the aileron spar, and aligned with the wing chord; is there any way we can put it to good use other than just around carrying dead weight?")



I have been trying to learn from what others have done - here is a good thread, worth the read it you are interested in spades, but not exactly what I am proposing: http://www.biplaneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920



Since we all have Experimental aircraft, experimenting w/o getting hurt might be fun & worth the trouble by making these great little airplanes even better.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Reduce the cord, reduce the load.



Ever notice how much aileron deflection is required to fly a Kolb?  Very

little.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Richard,   I think that I can safely speak for the rest of the guy's and that is if you want to do the work, we will be glad to take advantage of it. 

As I mentioned earlier, I have cleaned up as many of the drag factors on my plane that I can, so it flies a bit faster than Homer probably intended. To counteract the extra force required to use the ailerons, I have gotten in the habit of using my right knee to help with the turns. This causes a cramp in my right butt cheek about 40 minutes into the flights. Under the right circumstances, I could probably do without the cramp.

Thanks,

Larry

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 Been thinking about this for a couple of days and the more I think about it the more it sounds like a good idea. IMO my solution to heavy ailerons via reducing throw/leverage works quite well, (or it has for the last 15 years) but you guys certainly do have a point - what if you can have your cake and eat it too? And maybe we can?

 

 One of the considerations on any Kolb is the aileron twisting force; you apply torque to the inboard end, and by the time that torque gets to the tip, you have a lot of pressure accumulating, and typically, the aileron tube will twist enough that you are not getting full deflection at the tip. Typically spades are placed at the mid point of the aileron, but then I notice that most aerobatic aircraft have the aileron pushrod at midpoint, so what they are doing is modifying a major piece of hardware to do two jobs, and that's cool, but that's not our situation. So what if we put some small spades at the tip? To counteract the twist of the aileron tube throughout it's length? And reduce stick pressure?

 

 Since most of the (maybe all?) of the heavier Kolbs require aileron counterbalances, I wondered if it might be possible to install small spades on the front end of the counterbalance rod. I was told that this is a bad idea due to the vortex's / wash coming out from under the bottom of the wing and curling around the tip.

 

 What if you made stand off's to position the spade a couple inches away from the wing tip? Maybe a gap of 3 or 4 inches between the tip and the spade? (I am like; "Dude: we already have this sturdy rod coming out of the aileron spar, and aligned with the wing chord; is there any way we can put it to good use other than just around carrying dead weight?")

 

 I have been trying to learn from what others have done - here is a good thread, worth the read it you are interested in spades, but not exactly what I am proposing: http://www.biplaneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920

 

 Since we all have Experimental aircraft, experimenting w/o getting hurt might be fun & worth the trouble by making these great little airplanes even better.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464410#464410

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ====================================

 br> fts!)

 r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

 " rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ====================================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 	




-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

_________________
do not archive

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

I personally am too lazy to build new ailerons. You should know that by now. \



Larry

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:37 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Reduce the cord, reduce the load.

 

 Ever notice how much aileron deflection is required to fly a Kolb?  Very

 little.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 ====================================

 br> fts!)

 r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

 " rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ====================================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 	




-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

_________________
do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:30 pm Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Hopefully, you won't have to build new ailerons for any reason.  Me either.  My ailerons work just fine.  Don't have the roll rate of an Extra 300, but it isn't an Extra 300.  It is a big old MKIII that hauls whatever I can cram in it, from here to wherever I point the nose, and back.  If I had wanted a snappy airplane I would have built a Pitts.

 

Happy New Year everyone!

 

T-shirt and shorts at hauck's holler.  

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell

Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 6:53 PM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads



 

I personally am too lazy to build new ailerons. You should know that by now. \

 



Larry

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:04 pm Post subject: Wing Tip Spads

Richard/All

That's a great idea. Just so happens I saw somewhere (Airventure?) where someone did something like that on their Kolb. Anyone out there know anything about it? Did it work at all, cause problems????? 

Brian are you listening? 

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 Been thinking about this for a couple of days and the more I think about it the more it sounds like a good idea. IMO my solution to heavy ailerons via reducing throw/leverage works quite well, (or it has for the last 15 years) but you guys certainly do have a point - what if you can have your cake and eat it too? And maybe we can?

 

 One of the considerations on any Kolb is the aileron twisting force; you apply torque to the inboard end, and by the time that torque gets to the tip, you have a lot of pressure accumulating, and typically, the aileron tube will twist enough that you are not getting full deflection at the tip. Typically spades are placed at the mid point of the aileron, but then I notice that most aerobatic aircraft have the aileron pushrod at midpoint, so what they are doing is modifying a major piece of hardware to do two jobs, and that's cool, but that's not our situation. So what if we put some small spades at the tip? To counteract the twist of the aileron tube throughout it's length? And reduce stick pressure?

 

 Since most of the (maybe all?) of the heavier Kolbs require aileron counterbalances, I wondered if it might be possible to install small spades on the front end of the counterbalance rod. I was told that this is a bad idea due to the vortex's / wash coming out from under the bottom of the wing and curling around the tip.

 

 What if you made stand off's to position the spade a couple inches away from the wing tip? Maybe a gap of 3 or 4 inches between the tip and the spade? (I am like; "Dude: we already have this sturdy rod coming out of the aileron spar, and aligned with the wing chord; is there any way we can put it to good use other than just around carrying dead weight?")

 

 I have been trying to learn from what others have done - here is a good thread, worth the read it you are interested in spades, but not exactly what I am proposing: http://www.biplaneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920

 

 Since we all have Experimental aircraft, experimenting w/o getting hurt might be fun & worth the trouble by making these great little airplanes even better.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464410#464410

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ====================================

 br> fts!)

 r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

 " rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ====================================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum