Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

bsmith3163(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Help, I am  looking at bying a Kitfox 1 and it comes with a never used Rotax  532.  I just spent some time on the  phone with an authorized Rotax dealer and he said that the 532 was basically a  boat anchor.  They do not even have a parts list for it anymore.  We  talked about some of the alternatives but I wanted to find out what other people  were using.  Is anyone flying a Kitfox 1?  What engine combination are  you using?  What is the TBO?  What is the cost for a rebuild?  I  have come to the conclusion that the kit I am looking at is a good deal but not  so much if I have to replace the engine with brand new.  Any help would be  appreciated.

algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Can’t help you much with the 532 but I have a Kitfox Lite2 (Model 4) with 582 and all mods at Cad$28,000  

   

Gary Algate  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Smith

 Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 9:42 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?  

  

     

Help, I am looking at bying a Kitfox 1 and it comes with a never used Rotax 532.  I just spent some time on the phone with an authorized Rotax dealer and he said that the 532 was basically a boat anchor.  They do not even have a parts list for it anymore.  We talked about some of the alternatives but I wanted to find out what other people were using.  Is anyone flying a Kitfox 1?  What engine combination are you using?  What is the TBO?  What is the cost for a rebuild?  I have come to the conclusion that the kit I am looking at is a good deal but not so much if I have to replace the engine with brand new.  Any help would be appreciated.

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Brian,



I have a model 1 - though I can only offer a distant view.. since I've not yet flown it. The previous owner mounted floats and in the process installed a Rotax 618.  The 618 at 73-74 hp is more power than you would need and seems not to be all that common an engine. I'm sure others will offer more specific comments or suggestions.

_________________
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)

RichWill

Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Southern Maine

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Never had one myself, but know of many who did and failed... Been around awhile and they did have problems with the rotary values, something to do with caburation... 



I would NOT use it, or offered a price that excludes the engine.. Put in a 582 or go the extra mile and get the 912... you'll be much happier and safer!!



Rich

N50PC

bsmith3163(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Thanks for the advice Rich.  By "rotary values" are you talking about engine

rpm values?  I did read something about not operating below 2000 rpm except

for start and shutdown.  That seems kind of strange to me.  Brian Smith. 



--

mike
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

I guess you can always do like a spokane local named jerry turner and trailer your new fox around to flyins and pull it out and taxi it like you just flew in, of course his isn't a kitfox it's a hyper light, but I think you get the idea.

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

A 912 will not fit. The fuselage tubing up until the 3 (possibly IV) is too

small to support the weight. The Geo, with 65hp and 150#, is at the upper

limit of what I can install on my M2.



I would suggest you go with the Geo, but if you NEED a Rotax, go with the

582. The grey-heads are fine if you can find one, and be prepared to do ALL

that is required to maintain it ($$$). If you aren't, then your choices are

that much more limited on the 1.



Bradley



--

algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

I believe that the blue head 582 has a number of desirable upgrades over the

grey head ie) thermostat by-pass etc. Probably worth looking into.



Just for the record the 58 has an amazing power to weight ration and

excellent durability due to de-rated power and oversized crank and bearings.



Each engine variation has its own benefits and drawbacks and I don't think

there is any one combination that meets all of our requirements. For some

people TBO and cost is extremely important while for others performance and

durability are critical. I think it's up to each of us to decide what is

best for our personal mission.



I have flown Kitfoxes behind  912's, Jabiru's and 582's each one has its

pros and its cons but they are great and reliable engines.



For what it's worth!



Gary Algate



--

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

What desirable upgrades? A water bypass? Oooooh.



The grey head is as good as the blue. Trading a grey for a blue is pure

folly (how's that comin' from a Southern boy!). The Bluehead just isn't that

much nicer. Of course, you should go buy a Bluehead if you're shopping new.

Especially since that's all you can get!



It does have a good P/Wt ratio, but it DOES NOT have excellent reliability,

in any sense of the phrase. Sorry, but I have to raise the BS flag here. Can

you name an engine, used for just about anything, that is LESS reliable than

the Rotax UL two-strokes? I can't think of any; production ones, anyway.



That's my .02,

Bradley



--

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Bradley,



I would not let of too much steam till you get some testing done on your 

Geo.



Some are ok, some are not.



time will tell.



The Majority of the rotax 582 troubles have stemmed from the operators and 

not just the engine.



I think most will  agree there.



Dave



Now if you want some facts from a Geo armchair critic with handson 

experience, I will give it to you since you like to be critical. 



..

Dave,

   I had a look at the photo and this fellow is heading for trouble. He has 

a turbo 3 so the power will be adequate but there are several other 

problems. The flywheel is very light so there will be a lot of shaking. 

There is no damper as there is in the Russian gearbox, so the only damping 

will be by the belt, and this will vary with tension.

   The exhaust has a couple of problems. First off it is a waste of effort 

and weight to use any sort of muffler. The turbo will quiet the engine down 

quite well by itself. There appears to have been a bit of interference 

between the cowl and the exhaust elbow, so the builder shaved the exhaust 

and welded in a plate. It looks as if the shaving might have caused a 

restriction. This could restrict the outflow of exhaust, and if this is the 

case there will be a loss of power. The other exhaust problem is that there 

appears to be no mount for the muffler. If the engine shakes as much as I 

think it will, the muffler will be acting like a pendulum. It will not be 

long before the pipe parts from the turbo flange. This will improve the 

power output but it could also cause a fire.

   The prop extension looks to be very long, and there appears to be only a 

very small radius where it meets its mounting flange. This is a recipe for 

crack initiation and propagation. If I were in the insurance business I 

would not be selling any life insurance to this fellow. ....

---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

On Jul 12, 2006, at 11:32 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Trading a grey for a blue is pure

 folly (how's that comin' from a Southern boy!).


	


I say, I am rather shocked, old chap, what? 



Seriously, the grey top 582 from before 1992 (I think) had a weaker 

crankshaft. Mind you, mine did very well up to its 300 hours, but if I 

was to buy a second hand grey top, I'd try to get one from after 1992 

(or a certain engine number, if anyone remembers which one it is).



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

You certainly have a way with words.



I think if you look at the cause of failure of two stroke engines you will

find that 99% of the cases result from incorrect care, maintenance and/or

operation.



When you say the grey head is as good as the blue what logic are you using?



The thermostat by-pass on the blue head is in fact an excellent safety

factor and another step in the logical improvement and development of the

engine. I really don't understand why you would smear a 2 stroke 582 on one

hand for unreliability and on the other, berate a logical improvement like

the bypass system which could save a plane in the event of thermostat

failure. I believe that the Blue head also has a number of other features

over the Grey head and by saying that I don't mean that the grey head is not

an excellent engine - it's just that like our aircrafts the engine

manufacturers are learning and making subtle changes to improve the safety

and performance of their products. I certainly wasn't suggesting that

everybody with a grey head should immediately change to the blue head.



Bob Robertson (Light Engine Services) would have more info on this subject.



As I said in my posting all of the engine options have their place in the

sport and I think it is important that we respect each others choices. For

your interest there are a couple of Challengers flying with the Geo Metro

and I believe their power to weight ration is excellent.



Gary Algate



--

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

In a message dated 7/12/2006 4:36:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  bmwebb(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  What    desirable upgrades? A water bypass? Oooooh.

	


 

 actually there are many upgrades on the 582 BH.  I know, I have had  both the 582 and 532.   I spent a lot of money on my new  582BH with the E Box and feel it was well worth the money.  I  purchased from Lockwood and they have provided GREAT support.

  

 I have around 550 hours behind  various Rotax 2 strokes with excellent  results.   I also have a Piper warrior 2 that I love to fly and is kept  very "cherry" but we just spent 27,000 that past 12 months if you include  2  annuals and a new engine.  The old engine made it to 1,600  hours. Do the math....  I wont!

  

 What ever we do, especially when flying,driving, etc, is part of risk  management.  I have no interest in taking unnecessary  risks. Knowing we are flying a 2 stroke VS a certified Lycoming, I fly  differently.  Like I never fly my KF at night, over solid cloud and so  on....

  

 That's what is supposed to be the great value of the Internet.   But, we all need to filter the strong opinions and try to sort out the  facts. Not an easy thing to do.

  

 We all know there are a lot of 582s around.   But, when  shopping for an engine, I called around, went to 3 OSH and a Sun and  Fun, spoke pilots and vendors, I then made my decision.  Since then it has  been a very smooth and reliable engine.  So for me, that's my reality  

  

 All parts are available and reasonable, considering its an  airplane.  In fact I am flying mine to Kankakee Ill ( Jim Leon) for  scheduled service.  Decarb, check seals  etc. He has a great service  center with an even better reputation......

  

 There are a lot of good engines.....and I certainly include the 582.

  

 Dave P  KF 2

Malcolmbru(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Why would anyone put a $800 motor on a $10,000 air frame?  I wouldn't  pay very much for a kit that was so old it had an unused 532.  malcolm

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

As far as I know many earlier grey heads had the cranks replaced with the

spec 99 cranks.  Before flying my spec 90,  vintage 91 engine I had it

overhauled by a reputable Rotax repair centre.  They replaced the crank, the

expensive piece, and worked on the rotary valves.  They also upgraded

something to do with harmonic balances.



The long and the short of it is that the grey head engines can be brought up

to spec 99.  



Referring to reliability I still have some misgivings about the reliability

of the 2 stroke engine.  It's just that you are getting a mammoth energy

from a dwarf package.  In the four stroke C172 that I trained on I would

periodically check the engine gauges.....  In the 2 stroke it is a bit more

than periodically  I've only got about 25 hr on the engine but so far, knock

on wood, no probs.



Noel



[quote] --

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

The only thing I can disagree here is with the statement that there is more

damping with a loose belt.  From what I have learned on other groups there

is zero, nil, zilch damping in belts.  Having a belt too loose is an

invitation to a broken belt party.  I believe many manufacturers of belt

drives also use a TV damper in their designs.



Noel



[quote] --

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

Malcolm:

 Your point should be well taken.  Any airframe that  old should be gone over with a fine tooth comb before flying.  The engine  at the very least should be completely overhauled.....  in this case  replaced.

  

  

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

The guy that wrote that about the Turbo 'fox is a blithering idiot. The belt

is, in fact, Kevlar, and has no dampening qualities whatsoever. If he knew

the first thing about the issue, he would know that this is actually the

desired state for a belt drive. He would also know that Raven has a very

elaborate, yet simple, dampening system in the upper drive hub that all but

eliminates the natural harmonics of the Suzy 3. Jeron at Raven has spent

over ten years developing this system, and it's a complete package that

deals with all aspects of the design. The "Russian system" uses a BMW donut,

and it does work, but not as well. Raven will idle at 1100 engine rpm, and

the "Russian" won't go below 1500 at all, and 1800 is the norm due to the

shaking. It really doesn't address the issue of the harmonics at all; it

just band-aids the problem.



His prop flange radius issue is absurd. There have been NO breaks, ever.

NONE. ZILCH. NADA. Call Raven and ask.



BTW, the 582 mod 99 has 55ft/lb of torque at 6000rpm. A dead-stock G10 with

a T3 turbo at 5 psi is 107ft/lbs at 5500 rpm. Yeah, it's got enough power.



Go talk to anyone that drives a Metro/Swift, and see if it has been a

reliable car or not.



Bradley



--

wayne(at)engravers.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

I'm a 582 operator since 1998, The Rotax gray head was a poor engine to 

start with and it's short 300 hour BOH (between Over Hauls) is very short 

compared to other engines. I've had three engine outs while flying, one was 

an oil seal that let go and cost me over $2000 to fix. All had a successful 

landing, but my heart was pumping fast enough that it could have turned the 

prop at speed if there was a way to connect the two. My friend has 

snowmobile engines that have fuel injection, automatic altitude compisation, 

can go 110 MPH over the lakes and cost half of what our engines cost plus 

they don't have a 300 TBO time limit. Rotax FOR YEARS knew of the oil seal 

problem without doing anything about it, there changes are slower the 

Microsoft and they are WAY behind the curve on any technology changes.



Wayne Cahoon

---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: Rotax 532 a Boat Anchor?

On Jul 13, 2006, at 4:02 AM, Wayne Cahoon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Rotax FOR YEARS knew of the oil seal problem without doing anything 

 about it


	


Wayne, I know nothing about the Rotax engine and even if I flew 100 

hours behind a 582, I didn't even know they had an oil seal problem.



But, like most people, I work for an average company. We have 

marketing, R&D, production and customer support. Those guys fight each 

other every  day: Marketing sells products we don't have, R&D says we 

can't produce it, production says, no way for that date, and customer 

support ... blame it all on the customers.



I expect it is about the same with Rotax. Why would they refuse to fix 

a problem? I miss the company policy point, here.



Today, we can't blame it on the Jews or the Blacks. So, we blame it on 

politicians, lawyers, ... and even engine manufacturers. On the Jabiru 

list, it is the same thing: no one is pleased with Jabiru customer 

support. One has been waiting months for a part, the other one never 

got an answer to his email. But there are thousands of Jabiru and Rotax 

users who are quite happy. It's unfortunate that we rarely hear from 

them.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum