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Engine break-in, first taxiing

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Mike Schnabel

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

This report will pale in comparison the Ralph from Ohio's recent First Flight report... I can’t wait for that day to happen here!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

  But here is an update on my Firestar 2, it has waited patiently in the trailer the past 10 months for me to show her some daylight. So finally home from work long enough, and the weather was perfect enough, I did a little engine break-in work last Friday

   

  After determining the battery that was new but now dead (2 years of storage will do that to a battery I guess), and could not be  recharged, a new batt was installed. Tied the tail wheel down to a nearby stump with cargo straps used on a C-130 (a souvenir from my ANG stint, and I figured if this bird breaks these babies it deserves to fly on its own!). The first start up was a little slow. Cranked over several times before the fuel lines fully filled and it started (yes I did prime the lines, but still took a while). It smoked like a freight train the first few minutes, enough so that I became concerned and shut it down to verify there was nothing amiss, stuck oil line or poorly adjusted injector. I could find nothing wrong, so restarted. This time she fired on the second revolution (Sweet!), and within another minute or so the exhaust cleared, and things looked normal.

   

  Ran through the Rotax break-in process chart,  changing RPM at the appropriate intervals. Watching closely all gauges. RPM had a few spots it liked and would hold dead steady (5000 was one). But a few were hard to hold steady (5500), where it would hold then slowly climb, tap the throttle a tad to get it back, steady, then it would slowly drop... so for some of the 5 minutes runs would have to baby it to keep it on target, others would hold perfect the whole 5 minutes. Prop flex perhaps?

   

  Temps looked within range, at 4000-RPM CHT/300 and EGT/925. At WOT 6000-RPM CHT/400 and EGT/1000. From what I have learned these are acceptable. The only deviation from expectation was the Max RPM of 6000, should have been more like 6500 (on the ground). Not until later did I understand about setting the prop load down prior to break-in. This was my mistake, but I was  assured it would not be a major issue though was best to be set for a correct Max RPM on the ground. The 65-minute process consumed just under 3 gallons of fuel. That was my estimate, and what I loaded. I doubt it would have run 5 more minutes with what was left in the tanks.

   

  After the break-in and a 30 minute cool down. I installed the short windscreen after removing the full enclosure. Wade L commented to me a few days before (during a visit to see the plane) that once I flew a summer flight with the shortie I would probably not want the full back on till the winter. Once I sat in the seat and could see the view improvement, I believe what he said will be totally correct!

   

  So sitting there, break in complete, and there was sure a lot of sunlight left... a bit more fuel and on to some taxi runs on the new airstrip. Now it’s been about 15 years since my last tail dragger experience (Sorrell Hyperlight ultralight), so nice and easy, and SLOW were key words I kept in mind. The first few passes were actually pleasantly controllable, the only issue was my turnarounds, and I suppose that at such slow speeds with the narrow tail wheel the radius consumed all 100' width of my strip. First runs were below 20 MPH, but in about 30 minutes I realized I was breaching 30 to 35 and had to watch for those first signs of lift (did not want an inadvertent lift off at this time!). I also noticed that with more speed turn radius did improve a good bit. Still not sure about the heel brakes though. Held me when stopped or very near a stop, but don’t think I will count on them for any urgent slowing down at higher  speeds.

   

  Continued on for about 15 more minutes, and felt satisfied that some good progress was made today. Back into the trailer she went... but just before that, I took a few pictures. The setting sun was glistened on the wings so brightly… I could imagine the original owner of this bird offering an approving smile from the heavens above.

   

  Next, I am waiting for some replies from some LSA instructors I have contacted so I can get some dual hours, and begin work toward the Sport Pilot ticket, so I can legally get the FS2 up in the air where I know she really longs to be!!

   

  Mike S

  Manchester TN

  Firestar 2 503



  	 		Sneak preview the [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40762/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview] all-new Yahoo.com[/url]. It's not radically different. Just radically better.

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Mike "get the FS2 up in the air where I know she really longs to be!! "



And I have-ta-tell-ya...SHE DOES! Home-sick Angle!



I also noted that with power and stick all the way back it will turn pretty tight with right or left rudder on the ground. that prop energy sure makes a difference. As for the  brakes. You really don't want them like a cars, to stop on a dime or like my first taxi trip, she will bow-down to momma Earth, rasing her tail feathers and creating a "MOONING" to the world hard to live down. I also noted on my Taxi practice thta full power from a stand still makes one embarrising Mooning all over the field.  I think I have experienced every "dumb" method of ground driving that could exist. One other, I might share, Remember: no power to the prop, no control of the direction! Gulp , I know that one real well.



For more exciting reading on what I did wrong on my last taxi / flight read my post "self creteque or humble pie served in great portions"!

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Congrats! Let me interject a few comments within your post. -



Mike Schnabel wrote:

<snip> 

Ran through the Rotax break-in process chart, changing RPM at the 

appropriate intervals. Watching closely all gauges. RPM had a few spots 

it liked and would hold dead steady (5000 was one). But a few were hard 

to hold steady (5500), where it would hold then slowly climb, tap the 

throttle a tad to get it back, steady, then it would slowly drop... so 

for some of the 5 minutes runs would have to baby it to keep it on 

target, others would hold perfect the whole 5 minutes. Prop flex perhaps?

<snip>

My comments - Your engine will not get perfectly settled in for about 30 

hours. Even then, a two stroke will sometimes changes rpm's slightly 

depending on prop load and whether it is "on the pipe," or "off the 

pipe." The resonant exhaust characteristics can cause minor horsepower 

(and RPM) excursions within certain ranges. It is slightly affected by 

prop load and jetting. Live with it, it will probably get better with time.

<snip>

Mike said -   Temps looked within range, at 4000-RPM CHT/300 and 

EGT/925. At WOT 6000-RPM CHT/400 and EGT/1000. From what I have learned 

these are acceptable. The only deviation from expectation was the Max 

RPM of 6000, should have been more like 6500 (on the ground). Not until 

later did I understand about setting the prop load down prior to 

break-in. This was my mistake, but I was assured it would not be a major 

issue though was best to be set for a correct Max RPM on the ground.

<snip>

My comments: - Your current RPM on the ground of 6000 is acceptable. You 

especially do not want 6500 rpm on the ground. For instance - Last 

Friday I finally got done making airworthy an airplane I sold 15 years 

ago to a friend, and which had not flown for several years, and then he 

died. I am getting it airworthy for his widow to sell.  He had purchased 

a new Powerfin prop for it. I have never fooled with a Powerfin before.  

Installed it as the data sheet specified, and the rpm's at runup were 

too low (in my opinion - duh), about 5800 rpm.  Took out enough pitch to 

get it up to 6100 rpm static, fortunately I also raised the needles and 

went one size bigger on the main jets to keep the temps conservative.  

Taxied out and took off, and the Powerfin let that puppy jump up to 6800 

rpm on climbout, with EGT's at the max to match. Babied it carefully 

around the pattern and landed it w/o incident.  Tomorrow I will crank 

enough pitch back into it to get it down to 5800 rpm static again, so 

that in flight, as it unloads, things balance out properly. But the 

point is, for you, right now your temps are ok, but your rpm is a bit 

low. However, your prop will allow your RPM to unload to probably 

somewhere around 6200 in flight, that is safe enough, and most likely, 

as your prop unloads, your EGT's will go up a hair, and your CHT will 

come down a hair, and you will be in very safe territory, even if not 

optimum for performance. At this stage, you don't care about optimum 

performance, you will have all the performance you need, plus some, you 

want maximum reliability. If you take out enough pitch to get your rpm 

anywhere close to 6500 static, the prop will unload in more flight, and 

your EGT will go through the roof. That is not maximum reliability. That 

is giving you things to worry about on your first trip around the 

pattern that you don't need.

For more information on how to adjust prop pitch to affect your CHT and 

EGT readings, check out

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg11.htm

Again, congratulations on your successful (semi) crow hops!

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike S

 Manchester TN

 Firestar 2 503



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com 

 <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40762/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview>. It's 

 not radically different. Just radically better.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Mike, nice report.  I will print a copy for my neighbor who is about to 

do

a first run up of his 503/Flightstar.



Noticing your description of turning radius,  since I have the "economy"

setup of a single brake on my MkIII, I can't do a hard brake turn.  If 

there

are no trees to hit I can do full forward stick, left pedal,  and a 

buzz on the throttle to

get around in a fairly small radius (grass of course).

If the ground is rough I get out and do a tail lift to save what is 

obviously

an easy to damage tail structure.  I don't have enough ambition to weld

in a bunch of stabilizing members.



The engine, in last evening's splendid calm air, sounded maybe a little

uneven (always happens when nothing else is amiss) so today I unscrewed

the old NGK single electrode plugs with 50 hours on them. The center 

plug

shows a little leaner run than the ends but not bad.  Replaced with 4 

electrode

Bosch.

-BB  MkIII, .993L Suzuki

do not archive



On 9, Jul 2006, at 2:21 PM, Mike Schnabel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   This report will pale in comparison the Ralph from Ohio's recent First 

 Flight report... I can’t wait for that day to happen here!

  

 But here is an update on my Firestar 2, it has waited patiently in the 

 trailer the past 10 months for me to show her some daylight. So 

 finally home from work long enough, and the weather was perfect 

 enough, I did a little engine break-in work last Friday

  

 After determining the battery that was new but now dead (2 years of 

 storage will do that to a battery I guess), and could not be 

 recharged, a new batt was installed. Tied the tail wheel down to a 

 nearby stump with cargo straps used on a C-130 (a souvenir from my ANG 

 stint, and I figured if this bird breaks these babies it deserves to 

 fly on its own!). The first start up was a little slow. Cranked over 

 several times before the fuel lines fully filled and it started (yes I 

 did prime the lines, but still took a while). It smoked like a freight 

 train the first few minutes, enough so that I became concerned and 

 shut it down to verify there was nothing amiss, stuck oil line or 

 poorly adjusted injector. I could find nothing wrong, so restarted. 

 This time she fired on the second revolution (Sweet!), and within 

 another minute or so the exhaust cleared, and things looked normal.

  

 Ran through the Rotax break-in process chart, changing RPM at the 

 appropriate intervals. Watching closely all gauges. RPM had a few 

 spots it liked and would hold dead steady (5000 was one). But a few 

 were hard to hold steady (5500), where it would hold then slowly 

 climb, tap the throttle a tad to get it back, steady, then it would 

 slowly drop... so for some of the 5 minutes runs would have to baby it 

 to keep it on target, others would hold perfect the whole 5 minutes. 

 Prop flex perhaps?

  

 Temps looked within range, at 4000-RPM CHT/300 and EGT/925. At WOT 

 6000-RPM CHT/400 and EGT/1000. From what I have learned these are 

 acceptable. The only deviation from expectation was the Max RPM of 

 6000, should have been more like 6500 (on the ground). Not until later 

 did I understand about setting the prop load down prior to break-in. 

 This was my mistake, but I was assured it would not be a major issue 

 though was best to be set for a correct Max RPM on the ground. The 

 65-minute process consumed just under 3 gallons of fuel. That was my 

 estimate, and what I loaded. I doubt it would have run 5 more minutes 

 with what was left in the tanks.

  

 After the break-in and a 30 minute cool down. I installed the short 

 windscreen after removing the full enclosure. Wade L commented to me a 

 few days before (during a visit to see the plane) that once I flew a 

 summer flight with the shortie I would probably not want the full back 

 on till the winter. Once I sat in the seat and could see the view 

 improvement, I believe what he said will be totally correct!

  

 So sitting there, break in complete, and there was sure a lot of 

 sunlight left... a bit more fuel and on to some taxi runs on the new 

 airstrip. Now it’s been about 15 years since my last tail dragger 

 experience (Sorrell Hyperlight ultralight), so nice and easy, and SLOW 

 were key words I kept in mind. The first few passes were actually 

 pleasantly controllable, the only issue was my turnarounds, and I 

 suppose that at such slow speeds with the narrow tail wheel the radius 

 consumed all 100' width of my strip. First runs were below 20 MPH, but 

 in about 30 minutes I realized I was breaching 30 to 35 and had to 

 watch for those first signs of lift (did not want an inadvertent lift 

 off at this time!). I also noticed that with more speed turn radius 

 did improve a good bit. Still not sure about the heel brakes though. 

 Held me when stopped or very near a stop, but don’t think I will count 

 on them for any urgent slowing down at higher speeds.

  

 Continued on for about 15 more minutes, and felt satisfied that some 

 good progress was made today. Back into the trailer she went... but 

 just before that, I took a few pictures. The setting sun was glistened 

 on the wings so brightly… I could imagine the original owner of this 

 bird offering an approving smile from the heavens above.

  

 Next, I am waiting for some replies from some LSA instructors I have 

 contacted so I can get some dual hours, and begin work toward the 

 Sport Pilot ticket, so I can legally get the FS2 up in the air where I 

 know she really longs to be!!

  

 Mike S

 Manchester TN

 Firestar 2 503



 Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. 

 Just radically better.

Mike Schnabel

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org> wrote: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

    --> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike 



Brother Pike---Congrats! Let me interject a few comments within your post. -



Mike S----Ran  through the Rotax break-in process chart, changing RPM at the 

appropriate intervals. Watching closely all gauges. RPM had a few spots 

it liked and would hold dead steady...



Brother Pike----Your engine will not get perfectly settled in for about 30 hours. Even then, a two stroke will sometimes changes rpm's slightly depending on prop load and whether it is "on the pipe," or "off the 

pipe." 

   

  Mike S---- Temps looked within range, at 4000-RPM CHT/300 and EGT/925. At WOT 6000-RPM CHT/400 and EGT/1000. From what I have learned these are acceptable. The only deviation from expectation was the Max RPM of 6000, should have been more like 6500 (on the ground). Not until later did I understand about setting the prop load down prior to break-in. This was my mistake, but I was assured it would not be a major issue though was best to be set for a correct Max RPM on the ground.

   

  Brother Pike----Your current RPM on the ground of 6000 is acceptable. You 

especially do not want 6500 rpm on the ground. For instance - Last 

Friday I finally got done making airworthy an airplane I sold 15 years 

ago to a friend, and which had not flown for several years, and then he 

died. I am getting it airworthy for his widow to sell. He had purchased 

a new Powerfin prop for it. I have never fooled with a Powerfin before. 

Installed it as the data sheet specified, and the rpm's at run  up were 

too low (in my opinion - duh), about 5800 rpm. Took out enough pitch to 

get it up to 6100 rpm static, fortunately I also raised the needles and 

went one size bigger on the main jets to keep the temps conservative. 

Taxied out and took off, and the Powerfin let that puppy jump up to 6800 

rpm on climbout, with EGT's at the max to match. Babied it carefully 

around the pattern and landed it w/o incident. Tomorrow I will crank 

enough pitch back into it to get it down to 5800 rpm static again, so 

that in flight, as it unloads, things balance out properly. But the 

point is, for you, right now your temps are ok, but your rpm is a bit 

low. However, your prop will allow your RPM to unload to probably 

somewhere around 6200 in flight, that is safe enough, and most likely, 

as your prop unloads, your EGT's will go up a hair, and your CHT will 

come down a hair, and you will be in very safe territory, even if not 

optimum for  performance. At this stage, you don't care about optimum 

performance, you will have all the performance you need, plus some, you 

want maximum reliability. If you take out enough pitch to get your rpm 

anywhere close to 6500 static, the prop will unload in more flight, and 

your EGT will go through the roof. That is not maximum reliability. That 

is giving you things to worry about on your first trip around the 

pattern that you don't need.

   

  Mike S---Excellent analysis of my current prop RPM situation. I know I need some tweaking, but was seeking, as you mentioned, a safe zone for initial flight. Once comfortable with the planes characteristics, the tweaking can begin. Trying to maximize a planes performance before the first flight always seemed hard to me... but it at least had to meet minimal requirements... I think I have that, and that is good.

  

Brother Pike----Again, congratulations on your successful (semi) crow hops!

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

   

   

  Mike S----Thanks so very much, the real "crow hops" will be soon! Some may scoff my tendency toward safe aviation, but to them, I direct to the recent video posted here by David L. (Thanks Dave for the GREAT Video) with the fella flying a UL,

   

  At http://media.putfile.com/ultralight-flying

   

  Supposed I guess a fella with no training, no practice, sucked down a beer (or a cola, I don’t know), flew the craft, somehow landed.... and his comment on landing was ... "I told you I could fly that shit”…. Now maybe this was a stunt video, who knows… but it demonstrates a rare success of ignorance. In this case it was flying an ultralight. Tomorrow will it be a video of some other soul, but of him crashing a plane because he thought, it was just that easy to teach himself?’

   

  Again, laugh at me if you will, but prefer to err on the side of safety.

   

  But don’t let that gloss over the fact, I have one “Bitchin” Light plane here! And can hardly wait to fly her!

   

  Mike S

  Firestar2 503

  Manchester TN

   

  Do not archive 

   

   

   

   



Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org> wrote:  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Richard Pike 



Congrats! Let me interject a few comments within your post. -



Mike Schnabel wrote:



Ran through the Rotax break-in process chart, changing RPM at the 

appropriate intervals. Watching closely all gauges.  RPM had a few spots 

it liked and would hold dead steady (5000 was one). But a few were hard 

to hold steady (5500), where it would hold then slowly climb, tap the 

throttle a tad to get it back, steady, then it would slowly drop... so 

for some of the 5 minutes runs would have to baby it to keep it on 

target, others would hold perfect the whole 5 minutes. Prop flex perhaps?



My comments - Your engine will not get perfectly settled in for about 30 

hours. Even then, a two stroke will sometimes changes rpm's slightly 

depending on prop load and whether it is "on the pipe," or "off the 

pipe." The resonant exhaust characteristics can cause minor horsepower 

(and RPM) excursions within certain ranges. It is slightly affected by 

prop load and jetting. Live with it, it will probably get better with time.



Mike said - Temps looked within range, at 4000-RPM CHT/300 and 

EGT/925. At WOT 6000-RPM CHT/400 and EGT/1000. From  what I have learned 

these are acceptable. The only deviation from expectation was the Max 

RPM of 6000, should have been more like 6500 (on the ground). Not until 

later did I understand about setting the prop load down prior to 

break-in. This was my mistake, but I was assured it would not be a major 

issue though was best to be set for a correct Max RPM on the ground.



My comments: - Your current RPM on the ground of 6000 is acceptable. You 

especially do not want 6500 rpm on the ground. For instance - Last 

Friday I finally got done making airworthy an airplane I sold 15 years 

ago to a friend, and which had not flown for several years, and then he 

died. I am getting it airworthy for his widow to sell. He had purchased 

a new Powerfin prop for it. I have never fooled with a Powerfin before. 

Installed it as the data sheet specified, and the rpm's at runup were 

too low (in my opinion - duh), about 5800 rpm. Took out  enough pitch to 

get it up to 6100 rpm static, fortunately I also raised the needles and 

went one size bigger on the main jets to keep the temps conservative. 

Taxied out and took off, and the Powerfin let that puppy jump up to 6800 

rpm on climbout, with EGT's at the max to match. Babied it carefully 

around the pattern and landed it w/o incident. Tomorrow I will crank 

enough pitch back into it to get it down to 5800 rpm static again, so 

that in flight, as it unloads, things balance out properly. But the 

point is, for you, right now your temps are ok, but your rpm is a bit 

low. However, your prop will allow your RPM to unload to probably 

somewhere around 6200 in flight, that is safe enough, and most likely, 

as your prop unloads, your EGT's will go up a hair, and your CHT will 

come down a hair, and you will be in very safe territory, even if not 

optimum for performance. At this stage, you don't care about optimum  

performance, you will have all the performance you need, plus some, you 

want maximum reliability. If you take out enough pitch to get your rpm 

anywhere close to 6500 static, the prop will unload in more flight, and 

your EGT will go through the roof. That is not maximum reliability. That 

is giving you things to worry about on your first trip around the 

pattern that you don't need.

For more information on how to adjust prop pitch to affect your CHT and 

EGT readings, check out

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg11.htm

Again, congratulations on your successful (semi) crow hops!

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

[quote]

 Mike S

 Manchester TN

 Firestar 2 503



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com 

 . It's 

 not radically different. Just 		Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

Mike Schnabel

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Robert (BB), 

   

  Thanks for the reply! , and as for the radius turns comments, i had no idea (which is again an acknowledgement of my ignorance) which direction a prop blast would assist a turn. I thought, with the few trys i had, that making a right turn was the most efficent, but i would like to ask you, and the group, which way do you turn when radius is close, and with or with out brakes you choose to turn?

   

  Maybe i need a new name....

   

  Rookie Mike

  Manchester, TN

  Firestar 2 503

   

  do not archive

   

   

   

  



robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, nice report. I will print a copy for my neighbor who is about to 

do

a  first run up of his 503/Flightstar.



Noticing your description of turning radius, since I have the "economy"

setup of a single brake on my MkIII, I can't do a hard brake turn. If 

there

are no trees to hit I can do full forward stick, left pedal, and a 

buzz on the throttle to

get around in a fairly small radius (grass of course).

If the ground is rough I get out and do a tail lift to save what is 

obviously

an easy to damage tail structure. I don't have enough ambition to weld

in a bunch of stabilizing members.



The engine, in last evening's splendid calm air, sounded maybe a little

uneven (always happens when nothing else is amiss) so today I unscrewed

the old NGK single electrode plugs with 50 hours on them. The center 

plug

shows a little leaner run than the ends but not bad. Replaced with 4 

electrode

Bosch.

-BB MkIII, .993L Suzuki

do not archive

	


  		Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Mike, my plane, for some unknown reason, tends to like left turns on the

ground better.  Maybe its the CCW engine rotation, the weight in the 

left

seat, coriolis effect,  tilted runway?  Who knows, just seems that way.

-BB  do not archive



On 9, Jul 2006, at 5:39 PM, Mike Schnabel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Robert (BB),

  

 Thanks for the reply! , and as for the radius turns comments, i had 

 no idea (which is again an acknowledgement of my ignorance) which 

 direction a prop blast would assist a turn. I thought, with the few 

 trys i had, that making a right turn was the most efficent, but i 

 would like to ask you, and the group, which way do you turn when 

 radius is close, and with or with out brakes you choose to turn?

  

 Maybe i need a new name....

  

 Rookie Mike

 Manchester, TN

 Firestar 2 503

  

 do not archive

  

  

  

 robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:

> Mike, nice report. I will print a copy for my neighbor who is about to

> do

> a first run up of his 503/Flightstar.

>

> Noticing your description of turning radius, since I have the 

> "economy"

> setup of a single brake on my MkIII, I can't do a hard brake turn. If

> there

> are no trees to hit I can do full forward stick, left pedal, and a

> buzz on the throttle to

> get around in a fairly small radius (grass of course).

> If the ground is rough I get out and do a tail lift to save what is

> obviously

> an easy to damage tail structure. I don't have enough ambition to weld

> in a bunch of stabilizing members.

>

> The engine, in last evening's splendid calm air, sounded maybe a 

> little

> uneven (always happens when nothing else is amiss) so today I 

> unscrewed

> the old NGK single electrode plugs with 50 hours on them. The center

> plug

> shows a little leaner run than the ends but not bad. Replaced with 4

> electrode

> Bosch.

> -BB MkIII, .993L Suzuki

> do not archive

 Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great 

 rates starting at 1¢/min.

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Mike,

I totally agree with Brother Richards advice below.

Sounds like you are in the ball park with the prop.



Denny

do not archive

---

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Richard, you have provided some good advise.  It's probably only your experience that you were able to make it around the field without seizing that engine.  We had a new guy who decided to convert his IVO prop from a 3 to a 2 blade configuration.  He didn't wait for the more experienced guys to show up, decided to go it himself.  He added some pitch, made ground run up holding with the brakes and couple taxi runs but did not do a tail tied down static test run up.  As soon as he got in the air he found the engine to be revving to high, backed of power , had to back off again, which leaned it out, it seized and he went down and busted up his plane.  



 If you do anything dramatic with a prop, always warm the engine up first and do a full throttle static test with the tail tied down, watch the RPM and EGT's as throttle is added.  



 Expect the engine to unload once in the air so adjust the prop for less than max RPM.  Example for our Rotax 447 with a 2 blade IVO we normally set for around 5800-6000 RPM max on static ground test.  This produces about 6000-6200 RPM on climb out.  Unless your operating out of very short fields where you need every bit of HP for climb performance, you normally prop for a compromise between climb (flatter pitch higher RPM allows the engine to wind up and produce more of it rated HP which equates to smaller powerful bites producing less speed) and cruise (more pitch loads the engine more by taking bigger bites producing better speed).  Just as a little comment about our experience breaking two 447's, we had to add pitch during the break in procedure as the engine power output increased as the break in process progressed.  Also for the first 20 hours we also had to necessary to add pitch to compensate for increase of power output as the engine continued to settle in.

 jerb



 At 12:21 AM 7/10/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Denny Rowe" <rowedl(at)highstream.net>



 Mike,

 I totally agree with Brother Richards advice below.

 Sounds like you are in the ball park with the prop.



 Denny

 do not archive

 ---

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Engine break-in, first taxiing

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ran through the Rotax break-in process chart, changing RPM at the appropriate intervals. Watching closely all gauges. RPM had a few spots it liked and would hold dead steady (5000 was one). But a few were hard to hold steady (5500), where it would hold then slowly climb, tap the throttle a tad to get it back, steady, then it would slowly drop... so for some of the 5 minutes runs would have to baby it to keep it on target, others would hold perfect the whole 5 minutes. Prop flex perhaps? 	




Mike,

I've operated Rotax 503's on two different aircraft, and have had difficulty setting a specific RPM in the 5,000-6,000 range without drifting, even though the throttle was locked.  I think it is the nature of the beast.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Mike, 

I've operated Rotax 503's on two different aircraft, and have had difficulty setting a specific RPM in the 5,000-6,000 range without drifting, even though the throttle was locked. I think it is the nature of the beast. 



David B:



I believe the reason the Rotax two stroke is not too happy in the 5300 to 5500 rpm range is because this is the area that the engine "gets up on the pipe", e.g., the exhaust system is a tuned system designed to operate continuously above this rpm range.  Above 5500 rpm the engine is getting much more efficient, putting out more hp, and is happier than lower rpm's and especially that area where it is trying to, but not quite up on the pipe.



When one changes power from two to four stroke, the first major change in operation seems to be the absence of this "unsteady" area.



john h

mkIII



PS:  I am on the road.  1.6 mb downloads on a telephone modem ruin my opportunity to enjoy the Kolb List and the internet when I am traveling with the lap top.  Also helps to make the Kolb List more enjoyable and educational to stick to the subject of Kolb aircraft, engines, and Kolb related cross country and local flying.  There are nearly 700 members on this List.  I am sure some probably feel similar to the way I feel.  A lot of this stuff could go back copy to the individual, especially negotiating sale of an airplane and/or its equipment.  Sorry is my comments disturb a few, but that is the way I feel.  Wouldn't hurt for every member of the Kolb List to "really" read the commandments Matt sends to the List each month.  Me especially.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

At 10:15 AM 7/11/06 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



When one changes power from two to four stroke, the first major change in operation seems to be the absence of this "unsteady" area.



john h

mkIII


	


John, & Kolbers,



Not all two cycle engines show this unsteady or rpm creep.  The Simonini, 

Victor 1 is a reed valve engine with a tuned pipe.  No problem with rpm 

creep or rpm fluctuations in the cruise speed rpm range.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Engine break-in, first taxiing

 	  Quote: 	
		  John, & Kolbers, 



Not all two cycle engines show this unsteady or rpm creep. The Simonini, 

Victor 1 is a reed valve engine with a tuned pipe. No problem with rpm 

creep or rpm fluctuations in the cruise speed rpm range. 



Jack B. Hart FF004 

Winchester, IN 	


Jack H:



This only occurs on the Rotax engines (2 strokes) in the area of 5300 to 5500 rpm.  Normal cruise for a Rotax two stroke is 5,800 rpm, which is 75% power.  Well above "getting on the pipe".  Even the rotary valve 532 and 582 do this.



As for reed valve engines, reed valves do not change the port timing of the intake and exhaust, meerly increase efficiency of the intake system.  The design of the exhaust system (expansion chamber) dictates how "peaky" or "torquey" a two stroke will be, and how noticeable the area will be where the engine is starting to use the pipe effectively.



I forget where it occurred on the Cuyuna ULII02, which has been 21 years since I have flown one, but it too had an area where it would not want to settle down.



In addition to the pipe, expansion chamber, and prop load, you will probably get this on any two stroke unless it is a seriously detuned engine.  Two strokes are very supceptible to prop loading.  A little nose up or down will quickly increase or decrease rpm.  One major reason, I believe, is prop loading greatly affects carb tuning.  Nose up, runs richer and slower.  Nose down, runs leaner and faster.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rsanoa

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

I've never noticed it with the UltraStar Cuyunas.

   

  



"Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" 



At 10:15 AM 7/11/06 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" 



When one changes power from two to four stroke, the first major change in operation seems to be the absence of this "unsteady" area.



john h

mkIII


	


John, & Kolbers,



Not all two cycle engines show this unsteady or rpm creep. The Simonini, 

Victor 1 is a reed valve engine with a tuned pipe. No problem with rpm 

creep or rpm fluctuations in the cruise speed rpm range.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, 		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. [url=http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/  ]Try it free.[/url]

_________________
Ray S.Anderson

Mike Schnabel

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

John / Gang,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

  Thanks for the insight on the RPM comment that I experienced. I felt sure that as steady as the engine performed that day, this "area" of instability was due to some specific factors. My first thoughts were that each wisp of breeze was enough to change the inertia of the prop and the flex of its composite to flatten out, as if it was riding on a design edge for flex thus allowing a rev increase in the RPM. And your comment about riding on the pipe at just that RPM also makes great sense.

   

  I thank you and ALL the others list members for the great input and advice, I feel perfectly comfortable now with this engines performance that day on the ground. I have a great lack of experience, and wanted to share what I saw, to hope I could be alerted if something was really amiss. Again, thanks to ALL for your invaluable input, you have made a shining example of why this list has so much to offer. The sharing of ideas and experience. Above all, though sometimes not easy to see on the surface, I believe we all want to help each other stay safe in the air and on the ground.

   

  Mike S

  Manchester, TN

  Firestar 2 503

    

  do not archive

  



John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" 



Mike, 

I've operated Rotax 503's on two different aircraft, and have had difficulty setting a specific RPM in the 5,000-6,000 range without drifting, even though the throttle was locked. I think it is the nature of the beast. 



David B:



I believe the reason the Rotax two stroke is not too happy in the 5300 to 5500 rpm range is because this is the area that the engine "gets up on the pipe", e.g., the  exhaust system is a tuned system designed to operate continuously above this rpm range. Above 5500 rpm the engine is getting much more efficient, putting out more hp, and is happier than lower rpm's and especially that area where it is trying to, but not quite up on the pipe.



When one changes power from two to four stroke, the first major change in operation seems to be the absence of this "unsteady" area.



john h

mkIII



PS: I am on the road. 1.6 mb downloads on a telephone modem ruin my opportunity to enjoy the Kolb List and the internet when I am traveling with the lap top. Also helps to make the Kolb List more enjoyable and educational to stick to the subject of Kolb aircraft, engines, and Kolb related cross country and local flying. There are nearly 700 members on this List. I am sure some probably feel similar to the way I feel. A lot of this stuff could go back copy to the individual, especially negotiating sale of an airplane and/or its 		How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks for the insight on the RPM comment that I experienced. I felt sure that as steady as the 

 engine performed that day, this "area" of instability was due to some specific factors.


	


Probably not the factors that you think are in play. I'd urge 

anyone with a real sense of inquisitiveness to explore the 

following....



http://edj.net/2stroke/jennings/2stroketunershandbook.pdf



This is not a small PDF..around 7.5MB, but one of the best two-

stroke tomes no longer available in print except as purchased 

used....if you can find it.



Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

Have been avidly absorbing the Jennings book, (Thanks, Jim!) it has been 

years since I have last seen it. Something I was looking for, and have 

apparently found a slight reference to is on page 58, and has to do with 

port alignment.

The 582 has a real discontinuity in it's inlet tract, the relationship 

between the carb, the rubber manifold and the intake port, and the port 

on the inside of the rotary valve appears to be made with no thought or 

concern to any smoothness at all. One section is bigger, one is smaller, 

there are flat surfaces sticking out as if gas flow is a non-event. Yet 

the thing obviously runs well, but looking at it, it seems contrary to 

what it ought to be. Anybody else have any comments on the 582 inlet path?

I do take the 582 exhaust gaskets and clean them up around the inside 

with a moto-tool, so they don't protrude into the exhaust gas path. 

Seems to help keep carbon from accumulating as quickly within the 

exhaust, or maybe it's just the clean oil, I dunno... Comments?

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Jim Baker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> Thanks for the insight on the RPM comment that I experienced. I felt sure that as steady as the 

> engine performed that day, this "area" of instability was due to some specific factors.

>     

 Probably not the factors that you think are in play. I'd urge 

 anyone with a real sense of inquisitiveness to explore the 

 following....

 http://edj.net/2stroke/jennings/2stroketunershandbook.pdf

 This is not a small PDF..around 7.5MB, but one of the best two-

 stroke tomes no longer available in print except as purchased 

 used....if you can find it.

 Jim Baker

 580.788.2779

 Elmore City, OK

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Engine break-in, first taxiing

 	  Quote: 	
		   Have been avidly absorbing the Jennings book, (Thanks, Jim!) 


	


I was really surprised a couple of years ago to find it 

online...copyright be danged, I guess.....

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   The 582 has a real discontinuity in it's inlet tract, the relationship 

 between the carb, the rubber manifold and the intake port, and the port 

 on the inside of the rotary valve appears to be made with no thought or 

 concern to any smoothness at all. One section is bigger, one is smaller, 

 there are flat surfaces sticking out as if gas flow is a non-event. 


	


I've never done/seen an indicator diagram for the 

valve/piston/port relationships on a 582 so can't speak to 

overlaps and system interactions. I would think intake tract 

length (tuning) would be more critical than discontinuities in the 

flow path. There's only so much time spent on the intake 

cycle...at 6500 rpm, for instance, that's 108.3 intake events per 

second. That's  .0092 seconds for each cycle. Quite a 

conservative number when one considers a full tilt '70's two 

stroke race bike at 14,500 rpm that was spending about .0041 on 

each cycle (didn't last too long at that rate). Inertia of the intake 

flow and intake tract length were the most critical components.



Yet 

 	  Quote: 	
		   the thing obviously runs well, but looking at it, it seems contrary to 

 what it ought to be. Anybody else have any comments on the 582 inlet path?


	


Who'd have thought that a boundary layer trip on an otherwise 

flawless airfoil would lead to increased sailplane performance. I 

recall that one Jenning's other admonitions was not to spend a 

lot of time smoothing things up except to the extent that there 

aren't any gross discontinuities such as your gasket intrusions. 

Some may be good but only experimentation will reveal which 

are beneficial and which are not. To me, that says $$$$ for parts 

to butcher and mangle.



 

Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

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