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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Hi All,
The March 2017 issue of Kit Planes has an article called "Maintenance Matters" and in that article there is a picture of some wires being secured with tie wraps (zip ties). The author indicates that using tie wraps to secure wire bundles is "poor practice".
What would be a good practice to secure wire bundles to both themselves and to a structure or other component of the airplane /engine?
THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!!!
Bill Hunter
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MNellis
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 15
Location: Georgetown, TSX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Waxed lacing cord.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4041&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=4041&gclid=CK2XsozPldICFQQvaQodI14Nfg
On Feb 16, 2017 3:27 PM, "William Hunter" <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com (billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Hi All,
The March 2017 issue of Kit Planes has an article called "Maintenance Matters" and in that article there is a picture of some wires being secured with tie wraps (zip ties). The author indicates that using tie wraps to secure wire bundles is "poor practice".
What would be a good practice to secure wire bundles to both themselves and to a structure or other component of the airplane /engine?
THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!!!
Bill Hunter
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Mike Nellis
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Cushion clamps. High temperature ones are available for the engine compartment. For engine mounts, use two clamps bolted together, one on the tube and one for wires.
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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At 03:18 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi All,
The March 2017 issue of Kit Planes has an article called "Maintenance Matters" and in that article there is a picture of some wires being secured with tie wraps (zip ties). The author indicates that using tie wraps to secure wire bundles is "poor practice".
What would be a good practice to secure wire bundles to both themselves and to a structure or other component of the airplane /engine?
THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!!! |
Check out http://tinyurl.com/j5jtccn
There ARE some tie-wraps suited to aircraft (and other
environmentally unfriendly applications) but they
need to be carefully procured and you wont find them
on eBay or Harbor Freight.
Here's a pretty good source for a suitable version
http://tinyurl.com/hyey8th
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:01 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote:
This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . .
a little easier to use.
Bob . . .
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morgana.ram(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:26 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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if you decide to use lacing consider high quality silicone tape along with it. you can put a small piece around the wire bundle and the tube then use the lacing to secure it.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Express 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
Date: 2/16/17 4:59 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote:
This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . .
a little easier to use.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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| Quote: | There ARE some tie-wraps suited to aircraft (and other
environmentally unfriendly applications) but they
need to be carefully procured and you wont find them
on eBay or Harbor Freight. |
-CORRECTION- you might find them on eBay
but more likely to get REAL UV resistant,
outdoor rated ties from somebody in that
business. Heres one example:
http://tinyurl.com/zj2mb87
Tie wraps CAN be just fine in airplanes.
We used them at Beech. But just 'cause the
box SAYS UV resistant . . . well . . .
Bob . . .
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markwheelermd(at)icloud.c
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:58 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Why both? | Quote: | On Feb 16, 2017, at 3:14 PM, morgana.ram <morgana.ram(at)gmail.com (morgana.ram(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
if you decide to use lacing consider high quality silicone tape along with it. you can put a small piece around the wire bundle and the tube then use the lacing to secure it.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Express 3, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
Date: 2/16/17 4:59 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote: This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . . a little easier to use.
Bob . . .
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stein(at)steinair.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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We sell that as well, but $5 less per roll….
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:59 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote:
This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . .
a little easier to use.
Bob . . .
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:26 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Hi All.
I knew I could count on you (all)…THANKS for the info!!!
So why are tie wraps so…like… “bad practice”? If I heard that anything was “bad” back in high school that is exactly the direction where I would have gone…tie wraps still seem like a good idea to me.
I can see that “Adel clamps” are far superior in design…and weight…and the stainless steel part can be fire resistant (well…except for the rubber padding material). My guess is that the rubber would burn more hotter than nylon…because rubber makes nice fuel for rocket motors:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5226424/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/historic-rocket-powered-rubber-fuel/#.WKahpvkrJRY
So why are the ancient technology waxed fabric lace ribbon so great and “good practice”?!?!?
My daughters would be most happy to use little fabric ribbons to do the hair on their Barbie dolls…and I can see the benefit of the “anti-fungal” design…however…the temperature range of -67F to + 250F seems…well…kinda lame (code for “bad practice”) in airplane equipment…
I…REALLY…like the X-Treme Tape TPE-XR1510ZLB Silicone Rubber Self Fusing tape…seems like the ultimate new-fangled and high tech solution…and…the “will not melt up to 260C (500F)”…and the “Remains flexible to -50C (-60F)”…and the “Tensile strength of 700+PSI”…and the “Insulates to 400 volts/mil” sounds like silicon is a REALLY good solution…to me…almost even “better than best practice”…just say-in
So anyhoo…would the DAR be happy with the new-fangled silicon tape?!?!?
Seriously…I really do not care about the DAR…I simply what the “best practice” for me and my airplane…so is the new-fangled silicon a good deal?
Additionally…do I really need to cut away ALL of the tie wraps I just lovingly tied to my wire bundles!?!?!
THANKS AGAIN!!!
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:54 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
We sell that as well, but $5 less per roll….
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:59 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote:
This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . .
a little easier to use.
Bob . . .
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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:47 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Vibration mostly Bill.
Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration. They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant. Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer.
SteinAir always stock waxed lacing, have a great range of products and are dedicated to our kit builder community, so they’re my first go to option.
Cheers, Stu
| Quote: | On 17 Feb 2017, at 18:22, William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com (billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Hi All.
I knew I could count on you (all)…THANKS for the info!!!
So why are tie wraps so…like… “bad practice”? If I heard that anything was “bad” back in high school that is exactly the direction where I would have gone…tie wraps still seem like a good idea to me.
I can see that “Adel clamps” are far superior in design…and weight…and the stainless steel part can be fire resistant (well…except for the rubber padding material). My guess is that the rubber would burn more hotter than nylon…because rubber makes nice fuel for rocket motors:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5226424/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/historic-rocket-powered-rubber-fuel/#.WKahpvkrJRY
So why are the ancient technology waxed fabric lace ribbon so great and “good practice”?!?!?
My daughters would be most happy to use little fabric ribbons to do the hair on their Barbie dolls…and I can see the benefit of the “anti-fungal” design…however…the temperature range of -67°F to + 250°F seems…well…kinda lame (code for “bad practice”) in airplane equipment…
I…REALLY…like the X-Treme Tape TPE-XR1510ZLB Silicone Rubber Self Fusing tape…seems like the ultimate new-fangled and high tech solution…and…the “will not melt up to 260°C (500°F)”…and the “Remains flexible to -50°C (-60°F)”…and the “Tensile strength of 700+PSI”…and the “Insulates to 400 volts/mil” sounds like silicon is a REALLY good solution…to me…almost even “better than best practice”…just say-in
So anyhoo…would the DAR be happy with the new-fangled silicon tape?!?!?
Seriously…I really do not care about the DAR…I simply what the “best practice” for me and my airplane…so is the new-fangled silicon a good deal?
Additionally…do I really need to cut away ALL of the tie wraps I just lovingly tied to my wire bundles!?!?!
THANKS AGAIN!!!
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Stein BruchSent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:54 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: RE: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
We sell that as well, but $5 less per roll….
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, IIISent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:59 PMTo: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote:
This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . . a little easier to use.
Bob . . .
|
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:14 am Post subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury.
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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| Quote: | On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration.
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Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered wire bundle.
| Quote: | They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts,
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This is likely an old wives’ tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube.
| Quote: | making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant.
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Sometimes Adel clamps can be avoided. For wires on engine mounts, I wrap a turn of silicone baffle seal around the wire bundle and tie-wrap it to the engine mount. Simple, light, easy to do and undo. It also saves room in a crowded area because double Adel clamps (to clamp to a tube) stick way out and hinder access.
| Quote: | Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer.
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Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology.
The downside of tie-wraps is that they cut your hands.
-Kent
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neal.george(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage.
Neal George
A&P/IA
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: |
> They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts,
This is likely an old wives tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube.
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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On 2/17/2017 7:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote:
| Quote: |
> On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
> Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration.
Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered wire bundle.
Perhaps you haven't worked on planes with time in service with
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tie-wraps. I see cuts, but mostly from over-tightening.
| Quote: | > They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts,
This is likely an old wives’ tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube.
Not old tail. Very real hazard. Generally occurs when tie-wrap gets oil
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and or dust under it. Promotes rapid and serious wear on engine mount.
| Quote: | > making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant.
Sometimes Adel clamps can be avoided. For wires on engine mounts, I wrap a turn of silicone baffle seal around the wire bundle and tie-wrap it to the engine mount. Simple, light, easy to do and undo. It also saves room in a crowded area because double Adel clamps (to clamp to a tube) stick way out and hinder access.
Yes, silicone rescue tape is good.
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| Quote: | > Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer.
Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology.
The downside of tie-wraps is that they cut your hands.
-Kent
Kelly
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A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
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Kelly McMullen
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n81jg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:12 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Buy a small right angle cutter that cuts the nylon tie flush with the ratchet and there are no sharp ends. Cutter available at most electrical supply shops and only 6 inches or smaller.
John Greaves
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 17, 2017, at 3:14 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326
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rene(at)felker.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I have used them in a couple of places on my motor mount. I wrap the mount
with fusion tape and then use the tie. The fusion tape molds to what I am
holding and also grabs the tie. Works great and is more effective than the
adel clamps. It does not work as a standoff and thus is not appropriate for
everything. I have thought about making a little standoff that would go
under the tape (between layers), but have not tried.
Rene'
801-721-6080
--
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I've seen it many times too. A tie wrap that vibrates will eat
right into metal...even steel. Anything that goes on an engine
mount needs to have a cushion clamp or something like layers
of silicone tape wrapped around it...something to guarantee
it won't get worn into.
As a side note, I've had spark plug wires chafe thru the
colored silicone cover just by having a little slop in the
cushion clamps where they pass thru. Nothing that
fully compromise the wire, but the wires rubbed on eachother
enough to see bare braid. So now when I run spark plug
wires thru adel clamps, I inject RTV into the clamp as well,
to prevent any movement of the wire.
Tim
On 2/17/2017 8:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage.
Neal George
A&P/IA
Sent from my iPhone
>
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Wow... good information. You guys are a wealth of experience.
THANKS AGAIN!!!
Bill Hunter
On Feb 17, 2017 07:14, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote: | Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
On 2/17/2017 7:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
| Quote: | On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration.
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Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered wire bundle.
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Perhaps you haven't worked on planes with time in service with tie-wraps. I see cuts, but mostly from over-tightening.
| Quote: | | Quote: | They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts,
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This is likely an old wives’ tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube.
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Not old tail. Very real hazard. Generally occurs when tie-wrap gets oil and or dust under it. Promotes rapid and serious wear on engine mount.
| Quote: | | Quote: | making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant.
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Sometimes Adel clamps can be avoided. For wires on engine mounts, I wrap a turn of silicone baffle seal around the wire bundle and tie-wrap it to the engine mount. Simple, light, easy to do and undo. It also saves room in a crowded area because double Adel clamps (to clamp to a tube) stick way out and hinder access.
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Yes, silicone rescue tape is good.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer.
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Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology.
The downside of tie-wraps is that they cut your hands.
-Kent
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Kelly
A&P/IA
EAA Tech Counselor
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art(at)zemon.name
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. |
I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy. Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire on my blog.
If I had an installation in place and needed to add one more wire, I would just lace it to the existing bundle, without removing the existing lacing. The lace is so light weight, and takes up so little space, that there is not much reason to remove it. OTOH, before I installed the wire bundles in my plane, I did remove some lacing just to keep things neat. It was kind of tedious but not difficult at all. I used my mustache scissors because the pointy ends slipped right under the lacing.
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
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