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ngeorge(at)cmg.aero
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 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Some clarification is probably warranted.
Welding is the preferred method of attaching things to structural tube. Adel clamps are acceptable when structure is already complete/finished/in-service.
When using Adel clamps on structural tube, one must ensure that they are TIGHT on the tube. If you can wiggle it, it will wiggle in service. If it is loose enough to wiggle, dirt and other abrasives will work their way under the cushion. Dirt and oil make a dandy lapping compound...
As the rubber cushion wears and/or dried out over time, it should be replaced. Hard, cracked, dried out Adel clamp cushions can't function as designed and are therefore unserviceable.
Unserviceable or marginally serviceable parts often cause the damage they are intended to prevent.
Neal George
A&P/IA
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 17, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:
I've seen it many times too. A tie wrap that vibrates will eat
right into metal...even steel. Anything that goes on an engine
mount needs to have a cushion clamp or something like layers
of silicone tape wrapped around it...something to guarantee
it won't get worn into.
Tim
> neal.george(at)cmg.aero
>
> Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage.
>
> Neal George
> A&P/IA
> Sent from my iPhone
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as possible, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of cutting. If I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Art,
After watching your video I said to myself "Whoa I could do that"
Bill Hunter
On Feb 17, 2017 07:49, "Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name> wrote:
[quote] On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
wrote:
> Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and
> when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on
> a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology.
I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy.
Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire
<https://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/2016/12/19/how-to-lace-wire/> on my blog.
If I had an installation in place and needed to add one more wire, I would
just lace it to the existing bundle, without removing the existing lacing
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art(at)zemon.name
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Bill,
 That is the reaction that I hope people will have when they watch the
video. Lacing wire is really easy. I don't know why it got such a bad
reputation.
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:13 AM, William Hunter <billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com
[quote] Art,
After watching your video I said to myself "Whoa I could do that"
Bill Hunter
On Feb 17, 2017 07:49, "Art Zemon" <art(at)zemon.name> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net
> > wrote:
>
>> Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and
>> when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on
>> a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology.
>
> I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy.
> Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire
> <https://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/2016/12/19/how-to-lace-wire/> on my blog
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donvansanten(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I use zip ties very rarely. For the few that I have I bought a set of zip tie pullers. I found them on E Bay from the vender who buys used tools from retirering Boeing employees. The pullers are adjustable for tension and the finished zip tie is perfectly smooth. IIRC they were roughly 15 bucks each.
On Feb 17, 2017 08:19, "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote: | Quote: | I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as possible, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of cutting. If I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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stein(at)steinair.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Yep – I’ll guarantee you a competent technician (even inside the tail of a 747) can lace a long run of wires faster than anyone can zip tie them! It’s also a fact that zip ties can, do and will eat right into an engine mount. Anyone who’s worked on airplanes any length of time will have seen it (more than once). It’s not some nebulous wives tail…even if you wish it so. Lastly, if zip ties are installed correctly, they won’t “cut your hands” at all….makes me wonder how they’re being installed that they cut up your hands?!
Zip ties are fine and we use them extensively, but blanket statements like some of those made previous are just not credible or accurate.
Cheers,
Stein
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Art Zemon
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:37 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote: | Quote: |
Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, it’s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. |
I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy. Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire on my blog.
If I had an installation in place and needed to add one more wire, I would just lace it to the existing bundle, without removing the existing lacing. The lace is so light weight, and takes up so little space, that there is not much reason to remove it. OTOH, before I installed the wire bundles in my plane, I did remove some lacing just to keep things neat. It was kind of tedious but not difficult at all. I used my mustache scissors because the pointy ends slipped right under the lacing.
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
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n81jg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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The side cutter I recommended has a flat cutting surface on the outside, not a chisel, so you end up with a flush surface at the ratchet. Finger nail cutter works as well and would more easily reach into tight spaces.
John Greaves
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 17, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as possible, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of cutting. If I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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You will find if use a pair of these cable tie cutters, there will not be a sharp cut end remaining.
I too follow the practice of not using tie wraps but using lacing cord instead. Silicon tape in certain situations.
On 2/17/2017 6:14 AM, user9253 wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com> (fransew(at)gmail.com)
I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury.
--------
Joe Gores
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Bob McC
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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[quote] --------
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_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting) |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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At 08:34 AM 2/17/2017, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
> On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
> Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration.
Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered wire bundle |
That's not the worry. The MATERIAL from which
the tie wrap is made is critical. I have
tie wraps from my dad's old inventory that
you can break the buckles off with your
fingers. Try to tie them around something
with any vigor and they break.
There are plastics and then there are PLASTICS.
Some do not demonstrate good service lives
exposed to hydrocarbon vapor, heat cycles,
ozone, uv, etc.
Tie wraps from known sources (like ULINE
and many others) fabricated from 6-6 Nylon
and better yet, tailored for "outdoor service"
or "UV resistant" (usually black or dark green
in color) are fine for your airplane.
I don't KNOW that Harbor Freight stuff is
'bad' but confidence in their labeling is
not high compared to other, reasonably
prices sources.
I've got some H.F. ties under the hood of
my truck that have been there for years and
doing fine . . . so THAT batch was Okay.
If you're tying up something not likely to
be looked at for a very long time and/or
hard to reach, just spend a little extra
$time$ acquiring a low risk product.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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At 09:27 AM 2/17/2017, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
I've seen it many times too. A tie wrap that vibrates will eat
right into metal...even steel. Anything that goes on an engine
mount needs to have a cushion clamp or something like layers
of silicone tape wrapped around it...something to guarantee
it won't get worn into. |
This is true of ANY constriction around structure
where grit-bearing contaminants can get in. I blew
out a brake line on my '57 chevy where a power
steering hose, covered in oily road grit had
rubbed a thin spot in the steel line.
This is NOT unique to tie wraps. This is why
the M21919 (Adel) clamps should be sized to grab
vulnerable structures . . . to immobilize the
clamp on the at-risk surface -AND- prevent the
ingress of contaminants.
One of the images in my wire tying comic book
http://tinyurl.com/z6qem2v
shows a protective wrap on the at-risk surfaces
before the wrap goes on. A buffer that is important
whether the retainer is string, tie-wrap, or aluminum band
of an Adel clamp.
Tie wraps installed with your needle nose plies and
hand-forces will not be antagonistic to wires. Tie
wrap guns set for too much tension are the main
culprit. Using some of the knot tying techniques and
applying Hulk Hogan make-up forces can make your
string ties just as antagonistic.
Bob . . .
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture.
I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine.
-Kent
Technical Counselor
| Quote: | On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com wrote:
Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage
|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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At 04:06 PM 2/17/2017, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net>
I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture.
I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine.
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Think about the process of using
polishing compound on your car.
The rag is probably softer than the
paint. In this case, the paint isn't
very hard but it's a LOT softer than
tiny particles of harder stuff SUSPENDED
in a semi-liquid carrier called polishing
compound.
The particle shape brings very low
areas of 'harder stuff' into contact
with 'softer stuff'. Also not much
force. But 'low area' is the key feature
where Pressure is Force divided by Area.
If area approaches zero, pressure can
become quite large . . . so large that
itty-bitty chunks of material are removed
from the work surface.
The grit size is reduced as the polishing
job progresses until the scratches
left on the surface become significantly
small compared to a wavelength of light.
Light now bounces off with gusto . . . i.e.
polish Nervana has been achieved.
I will bet you a weeks pay that instances
of noticeable metal removal under a tie
wrap was on a pretty dirty airplane . . .
I.e. a soft polishing cloth (tie wrap) was
sloshing a grinding grit (dirt) suspended
in semi-liquid (grease and oil) against
a work surface (metal strut).
It's easy to misinterpret the effect to
'use of a tie wrap' when in fact the root
cause is simply poor craftsmanship. Anything
that is bolted, tied, clamped, or otherwise
fastened to a piece of critical structure
must be (1) immobile and (2) free of contaminants.
You're correct in thinking that a piece of
plastic isn't going to mark up a piece of metal
and indeed, it didn't. It had help.
Bob . . .
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:42 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Here's a thread from VAF:http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012
Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture.
I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine.
-Kent
Technical Counselor
> On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com) wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)
>
> Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage |
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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Yeah but see post #21 in that thread: 18 years zip ties in place and the tube paint is undisturbed. I agree with that fellow. Engine mounts crack all the time. The presence of a zip tie is trivial compared to forces on a welded upper engine-mount joint. When I see a zip tie that has removed any metal from a 4130 tube, I 'll reconsider.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=624064&postcount=21
-kent
On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Here's a thread from VAF:http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012
Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture.
I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine.
-Kent
Technical Counselor
> On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com) wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)
>
> Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage |
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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:55 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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As Bob described to in the polishing rag example, tie looseness (whether incorrectly tensioned or due tie stretching or soft paint migrating away from underneath the tie) + vibration = relative motion + contaminants = wear and tear. Not everyone will observe wear and tear from plastic zip ties on metal, depending on application and maintenance, but it is a fact that some people do experience this and I have seen it for myself. An Adel clamp will do the same thing if loose, but at least it has greater surface contact area to spread the load. Better to recommend best practices on the forum, but they are not the ‘only’ practices that work.
Cheers, Stu | Quote: | On 18 Feb 2017, at 09:38, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Here's a thread from VAF:http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012
Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire.On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote: | Quote: | | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture. I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine. -Kent Technical Counselor > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com) wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com) > > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage |
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:49 pm Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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There is more to the common or garden ty-rap/zip-tie/cable-wrap than is first apparent. I have a government customer who insists on only externally serrated ties with no metal locking tang - your buyer has to be careful to get the correct items!
I tend to replace any firewall forward ty-rap every few years to ensure the is no damage to the motor mount tubes. I keep a pair of flush cutting side cutters specifically for cutting the tails.
In a production environment, with everything to hand, ty-raps can save time and require less skill (so are cheaper). I have more lacing chord on my aeroplane than ty-raps...
Peter
On 18 Feb 2017 01:09, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote: | Quote: | As Bob described to in the polishing rag example, tie looseness (whether incorrectly tensioned or due tie stretching or soft paint migrating away from underneath the tie) + vibration = relative motion + contaminants = wear and tear. Not everyone will observe wear and tear from plastic zip ties on metal, depending on application and maintenance, but it is a fact that some people do experience this and I have seen it for myself. An Adel clamp will do the same thing if loose, but at least it has greater surface contact area to spread the load. Better to recommend best practices on the forum, but they are not the ‘only’ practices that work.
Cheers, Stu
| Quote: | On 18 Feb 2017, at 09:38, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Here's a thread from VAF:http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012
Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture.
I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine.
-Kent
Technical Counselor
> On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com) wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)
>
> Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage |
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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For inside the engine compartment, cable ties made of Tefzel are available (although expensive).
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:45 PM, Peter Pengilly <peter(at)sportingaero.com (peter(at)sportingaero.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | There is more to the common or garden ty-rap/zip-tie/cable-wrap than is first apparent. I have a government customer who insists on only externally serrated ties with no metal locking tang - your buyer has to be careful to get the correct items!
I tend to replace any firewall forward ty-rap every few years to ensure the is no damage to the motor mount tubes. I keep a pair of flush cutting side cutters specifically for cutting the tails.
In a production environment, with everything to hand, ty-raps can save time and require less skill (so are cheaper). I have more lacing chord on my aeroplane than ty-raps...
Peter
On 18 Feb 2017 01:09, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote: | Quote: | As Bob described to in the polishing rag example, tie looseness (whether incorrectly tensioned or due tie stretching or soft paint migrating away from underneath the tie) + vibration = relative motion + contaminants = wear and tear. Not everyone will observe wear and tear from plastic zip ties on metal, depending on application and maintenance, but it is a fact that some people do experience this and I have seen it for myself. An Adel clamp will do the same thing if loose, but at least it has greater surface contact area to spread the load. Better to recommend best practices on the forum, but they are not the ‘only’ practices that work.
Cheers, Stu
| Quote: | On 18 Feb 2017, at 09:38, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Here's a thread from VAF:http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012
Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire.
On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
I’d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of “zip tie engine mount tube wear” does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture.
I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it’s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine.
-Kent
Technical Counselor
> On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com) wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)
>
> Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage |
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jrevens
Joined: 21 Nov 2013
Posts: 34
Location: Arvada, CO
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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I really have to disagree with the blanket idea expressed in the "Maintenance Matters" article that "using tie wraps to secure wire bundles is poor practice."
Like just about anything we do with our aircraft there are right ways and wrong ways, and some materials, tools and techniques are better than others. Lacing wire bundles is great, but using wire ties can also be just fine. Also, there are tight places where lacing is a real PITA.
As Bob said, some factory-built aircraft have used wire ties successfully. On the new Rotax engine that I recently bought, Rotax used relatively inexpensive looking wire ties all over it to keep ignition wiring, hoses, etc. in their proper positions. I have used wire ties, both behind the panel, in the engine compartment, and elsewhere on my first homebuilt that was an Oshkosh and other fly-ins award winner. I have been flying that airplane for 26 years, and there has not been a single problem due to them... not one. I am using them on my latest project also. I use the best ones that I am familiar with - T&B with the stainless steel insert & in UV resistant black nylon. They are pricey but one of the best, if not the best, IMHO. I don't think the UV issue is terribly important (how much direct sunlight does the back of an instrument panel, or an engine compartment actually see anyway?), but I think they are also longer lasting in general. I protect structural tubing, usually with a layer of tough polyurethane anti-abrasion tape, and often the wire also, with that or a self-fusing rubber tape when using them. As far as contact area goes, even some of the smaller wire ties have greater width/contact area against the wire than lacing cord does. As others have said, there is really no problem cutting them properly to avoid sharp edges. It really bugs me when someone makes a statement like that in a popular magazine, and then the widely-held opinion (as people "pile-on") is that this or that is "bad" or "poor practice" in general.
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John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (sold)
Kitfox SS7 N27JE (built & flying) |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:31 am Post subject: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles |
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| Quote: | | I don't think the UV issue is terribly important (how much direct sunlight does the back of an instrument panel, or an engine compartment actually see anyway?), |
Agreed . . . plastics suitable to
our task are selected for their resistance
to environmental effects and age. "UV
resistance" is simply one data point indicating
that the manufacturer has taken the time to
produce a robust product.
I've had tie-wraps of unknown pedigree lay on
the self in dark, room temperature repose for
years become brittle with time alone.
Putting the least tension on them during installation
snaps the buckle off.
There are hundreds of sources for perfectly acceptable
tie wraps. We used them by the truck-load at Beech . . .
I don't recall seeing a craftsman use string ties during
my last years at Beech.
I'm sure the other guys in Wichita used them as well.
The take-away from this thread is KNOW where the
tie-wraps come from . . . a requirement impossible to
track from H.F. and sometimes difficult on eBay.
Caveat emptor . . .
Bob . . .
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