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art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Folks,



Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

Thanks,

    -- Art Z.



-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:50 pm Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not 

need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps 

position

or

the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft 

power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly 

transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps 

position when activated.



The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad 

immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external 

antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how 

much of this still applies to the current units.



Ken



On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Folks,



 Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several 

 hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

 https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php



 Thanks,

     -- Art Z.



 -- 

 https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/



 /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, 

 what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

I chose the Kannad because it was the smallest and the lightest. As time has passed, however, I came to desire that my ELT always have my GPS position ready to send as soon as I hit the button. So I ordered the NEMA connector for the Kannad that will allow that, but it is a very expensive part and I have been waiting for it for nearly two months now.



On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 4:48 PM, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 

 A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 or

 the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 

 The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

 

 Ken

 

 On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Folks,

 

 Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

 https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

 

 Thanks,

     -- Art Z.

 

 -- 

 https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

 

 /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

 	
 

 ====================================

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:15 pm Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

That's really good info. Thank you two. I had not realized that the Kannad did not continually know its location. Since I am building a metal airplane, I don't think the Kannad's internal antenna will be of any use at all.



    -- Art Z.



On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I chose the Kannad because it was the smallest and the lightest. As time has passed, however, I came to desire that my ELT always have my GPS position ready to send as soon as I hit the button. So I ordered the NEMA connector for the Kannad that will allow that, but it is a very expensive part and I have been waiting for it for nearly two months now.



On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 4:48 PM, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 

 A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 or

 the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 

 The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

	




	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:02 pm Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

I've been told that enough signal leaks out that they work just fine in 

a metal fuselage.

I don't have a kannad but In Canada we can get an email confirming 

satellite reception when testing Elt's and I've never heard a complaint 

about kannad reception.

I can say that the satellites pick up tests from an Ack unit in the back 

of a metal T hangar just fine so I can believe the kannads function as 

claimed.

Ken



On 27/02/2017 10:13 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   That's really good info. Thank you two. I had not realized that the 

 Kannad did not continually know its location. Since I am building a 

 metal airplane, I don't think the Kannad's internal antenna will be of 

 any use at all.



     -- Art Z.



 On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com 

 <mailto:keninalaska(at)gmail.com>> wrote:



     I chose the Kannad because it was the smallest and the lightest.

     As time has passed, however, I came to desire that my ELT always

     have my GPS position ready to send as soon as I hit the button. So

     I ordered the NEMA connector for the Kannad that will allow that,

     but it is a very expensive part and I have been waiting for it for

     nearly two months now.



     On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 4:48 PM, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com

     <mailto:yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>> wrote:



         

         <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com <mailto:yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>>



         A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that

         does not need an external antenna but does take several

         minutes to locate its gps position

         or

         the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps

         and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can

         therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking

         minutes to locate the gps position when activated.



         The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from

         the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH

         loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a

         significant concern. I don't know how much of this still

         applies to the current units.



 -- 

 https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/



 /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, 

 what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:10 pm Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Hello Art,



it is a fine piece of equipment and the internal antenna is a plus, but 

I do not understand your price question as an example:



https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/artex11-13989.php



https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/av/elts_zack/elt406.php



are several hundred $ cheaper or even less then half the price of the Kannad



Cheers Werner



On 28.02.2017 00:55, Art Zemon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Folks,



 Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several 

 hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

 https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

stuart(at)stuarthutchison
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:53 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Hey Ken,

There’s an important safety point to clarify.

The RCC will know that you (specifically you) are experiencing an emergency almost immediately after a serviceable 406 ELT activation, but without a GPS position they can’t know where you are because the satellites can't fix "a rough triangulated position" in quick time.  To fix non-GPS ELTs, a range of multi-role Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites (such as NOAA satellites with a COSPAS/SARSAT payload) track a network of orbital paths over the Earth (seemingly straight-line to a ground-based observer).  These satellites receive and triangulate ELT/PLB/EPIRB fixes sent on 406.025 MHz, but the satellite can’t tell which side you are on, so one satellite pass produces both a true and a false Doppler fix on opposite sides of track.  Unless one fix is wildly improbable, first responders will often wait for a second, corroborating fix to resolve the ambiguity.  Coverage is probably more saturated over the USA than here in Aus, but it can still take hours to resolve the ambiguity with a second LEO satellite pass on a different track.  The accuracy of the Doppler fix depends on the stability of the ELT transmission frequency, which is why the old 121.5 / 243.0 MHz satellite receiver component was decommissioned over a decade ago (and that swept-tone ELT signals were generic and not unique to a particular platform, plus there was a 95% false alarm rate).  For example, one of our old C-130H ELTs ejected from the tail in a known location and it took the LEO satellite system 9.5 hours to Doppler fix the initial location.  Admittedly that was 121.5 / 243.0 MHz with poor frequency stability, but its the same LEO satellite network Doppler fixing our modern 406.025MHz signals.  ELTs are still required to have 121.5 MHZ (and perhaps 243.0 MHz for military) as a homing signal for the final rescue itself, but this is why GPS is so important.  

Once activated, most modern GPSs will fix themselves in seconds (up to less than a few minutes depending on almanac download status, which happens via the GPS satellites) and then append the fix position in the 'long message' format to the Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) via a GEO-stationary satellite (orbiting at the same rate the Earth rotates in space, so essentially stationary overhead each continent). In this way an accurate GPS position is simply ‘bounced' off the GEO satellite to the RCC rather than waiting for passing LEO satellites to Doppler fix.  Before the first GPS fix is achieved the ELT will nevertheless relay your unique 15 digit HEXID to the RCC (which, BTW, can be programmed to incorporate the 24-bit address code assigned to the aircraft’s ADS-B transponder if you have one), so the RCC knows you have an emergency almost instantly.

Food for thought:

If you turn the ELT on in flight, it will begin to GPS fix and append the position in the signal to the RCC, but it could be that first fix takes longer than you have before reaching the ground/water.  If you don’t have time to turn the ELT on, it will probably activate on impact (my Kannad Compact certainly does), however, success then depends on continued integrity of the coax cable between the ELT and its antenna, which may be vulnerable to crash damage in your particular installation (perhaps lightly retained 'service loops' would be wise).  Pre-loading the ELT with aircraft GPS position buys you some time to get your position off to the RCC on the way down (if you activate the ELT), but either way, the ELT isn’t much use if the aircraft sinks underwater, in which case you would want to be floating around with a separate GPS PLB attached to you.

My decision was to install an automatic ELT with in-built GPS (non aircraft integrated) that I intend to activate immediately in an emergency.  If the ELT is damaged, subsequently fails or I have to swim out of the cockpit, I also have a PLB attached to myself.  Militaries the world over do this too (in both ejection seat and non-ejection seat aircraft).

V/R Stu

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Feb 2017, at 12:48, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 or

 the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

 Ken

 On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

> Folks,

> 

> Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

> https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

> 

> Thanks,

>    -- Art Z.

> 

> -- 

> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

> 

> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:29 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Are ELT obligatory in the usa and canada?Will

On Feb 28, 2017 05:59, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)>

 Hey Ken,

 There’s an important safety point to clarify.

 The RCC will know that you (specifically you) are experiencing an emergency almost immediately after a serviceable 406 ELT activation, but without a GPS position they can’t know where you are because the satellites can't fix "a rough triangulated position" in quick time.  To fix non-GPS ELTs, a range of multi-role Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites (such as NOAA satellites with a COSPAS/SARSAT payload) track a network of orbital paths over the Earth (seemingly straight-line to a ground-based observer).  These satellites receive and triangulate ELT/PLB/EPIRB fixes sent on 406.025 MHz, but the satellite can’t tell which side you are on, so one satellite pass produces both a true and a false Doppler fix on opposite sides of track.  Unless one fix is wildly improbable, first responders will often wait for a second, corroborating fix to resolve the ambiguity.  Coverage is probably more saturated over the USA than here in Aus, but it can still take hours to resolve the ambiguity!

   with a second LEO satellite pass on a different track.  The accuracy of the Doppler fix depends on the stability of the ELT transmission frequency, which is why the old 121.5 / 243.0 MHz satellite receiver component was decommissioned over a decade ago (and that swept-tone ELT signals were generic and not unique to a particular platform, plus there was a 95% false alarm rate).  For example, one of our old C-130H ELTs ejected from the tail in a known location and it took the LEO satellite system 9.5 hours to Doppler fix the initial location.  Admittedly that was 121.5 / 243.0 MHz with poor frequency stability, but its the same LEO satellite network Doppler fixing our modern 406.025MHz signals.  ELTs are still required to have 121.5 MHZ (and perhaps 243.0 MHz for military) as a homing signal for the final rescue itself, but this is why GPS is so important.

 Once activated, most modern GPSs will fix themselves in seconds (up to less than a few minutes depending on almanac download status, which happens via the GPS satellites) and then append the fix position in the 'long message' format to the Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) via a GEO-stationary satellite (orbiting at the same rate the Earth rotates in space, so essentially stationary overhead each continent). In this way an accurate GPS position is simply ‘bounced' off the GEO satellite to the RCC rather than waiting for passing LEO satellites to Doppler fix.  Before the first GPS fix is achieved the ELT will nevertheless relay your unique 15 digit HEXID to the RCC (which, BTW, can be programmed to incorporate the 24-bit address code assigned to the aircraft’s ADS-B transponder if you have one), so the RCC knows you have an emergency almost instantly.

 Food for thought:

 If you turn the ELT on in flight, it will begin to GPS fix and append the position in the signal to the RCC, but it could be that first fix takes longer than you have before reaching the ground/water.  If you don’t have time to turn the ELT on, it will probably activate on impact (my Kannad Compact certainly does), however, success then depends on continued integrity of the coax cable between the ELT and its antenna, which may be vulnerable to crash damage in your particular installation (perhaps lightly retained 'service loops' would be wise).  Pre-loading the ELT with aircraft GPS position buys you some time to get your position off to the RCC on the way down (if you activate the ELT), but either way, the ELT isn’t much use if the aircraft sinks underwater, in which case you would want to be floating around with a separate GPS PLB attached to you.

 My decision was to install an automatic ELT with in-built GPS (non aircraft integrated) that I intend to activate immediately in an emergency.  If the ELT is damaged, subsequently fails or I have to swim out of the cockpit, I also have a PLB attached to myself.  Militaries the world over do this too (in both ejection seat and non-ejection seat aircraft).

 V/R Stu

 > On 28 Feb 2017, at 12:48, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 > or

 > the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 >

 > The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

 >

 > Ken

 >

 > On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

 >> Folks,

 >>

 >> Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

 >> https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

 >>

 >> Thanks,

 >>    -- Art Z.

 >>

 >> --

 >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

 >>

 >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ====================================

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:31 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Short answer, yes.

However, in the US (I don't know Canadian specifics) even the 1st 

generation, circa 1973 ELTs are legal to meet the requirement if they 

were installed prior to a specified date. 2nd generation 121.5 ELTs are 

required for new installations. 406 units are not required, no upgrade 

requirement forecast. It is all up to the aircraft owner what they want 

and are willing to pay.

One overriding consideration is that a large portion of the US fleet 

must install ADS-B by 2020. It will provide an automatic trace of the 

aircraft for all but the first and last few hundred feet above the 

ground, depending on proximity to ground receivers. After spending $3000 

and up for that equipment, owners may be reluctant to pay another $1000 

for a 406 ELT and installation.



On 2/28/2017 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Are ELT obligatory in the usa and canada?

 Will

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

JOHN TIPTON

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:10 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

What are your requirements, over here (Europe) we carry these: 



https://www.flightstore.co.uk/pilot-supplies-c1/safety-survival-c740/plb-and-elt-beacons-c164/mcmurdo-fastfind-220-plb-with-gps-p3878?gclid=CjwKEAiA3NTFBRDKheuO6IG43VQSJAA74F77PECVW8N0D_uBN-h8pwWywiltaxiQikL1P9fY62EjfBoC-3Hw_wcB



John



Sent from my iPad



     ----x--O--x----



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Feb 2017, at 01:31 pm, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 

 =

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:23 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Thanks Stu

I definitely overstated about triangulation.  I concluded that the 

benefit of a 406 without immediate gps position was mostly identifying 

what aircraft was involved which contributes a lot. In theory if the 

alert with an aircraft ID gets out with a 406, coordinating with a 

flight plan etc. can quickly locate a 'very' general position which has 

some value especially for relatively common landing and takeoff incidents.



Will - I'm not up to date on all the  current ELT regs and 

interpolations but yes ELT's are mandatory in Canada. There are still 

121.5 units in service and also aircraft flying with the units removed 

for annual certifications though.

Ken



On 28/02/2017 6:27 AM, William Daniell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Are ELT obligatory in the usa and canada?

 Will



 On Feb 28, 2017 05:59, "Stuart Hutchison" 

 <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au <mailto:stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>> 

 wrote:



     

     <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au <mailto:stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au>>



     Hey Ken,



     There’s an important safety point to clarify.



     The RCC will know that you (specifically you) are experiencing an

     emergency almost immediately after a serviceable 406 ELT

     activation, but without a GPS position they can’t know where you

     are because the satellites can't fix "a rough triangulated

     position" in quick time.  To fix non-GPS ELTs, a range of

     multi-role Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites (such as NOAA

     satellites with a COSPAS/SARSAT payload) track a network of

     orbital paths over the Earth (seemingly straight-line to a

     ground-based observer).  These satellites receive and triangulate

     ELT/PLB/EPIRB fixes sent on 406.025 MHz, but the satellite can’t

     tell which side you are on, so one satellite pass produces both a

     true and a false Doppler fix on opposite sides of track.  Unless

     one fix is wildly improbable, first responders will often wait for

     a second, corroborating fix to resolve the ambiguity. Coverage is

     probably more saturated over the USA than here in Aus, but it can

     still take hours to resolve the ambiguity!

       with a second LEO satellite pass on a different track. The

     accuracy of the Doppler fix depends on the stability of the ELT

     transmission frequency, which is why the old 121.5 / 243.0 MHz

     satellite receiver component was decommissioned over a decade ago

     (and that swept-tone ELT signals were generic and not unique to a

     particular platform, plus there was a 95% false alarm rate).  For

     example, one of our old C-130H ELTs ejected from the tail in a

     known location and it took the LEO satellite system 9.5 hours to

     Doppler fix the initial location.  Admittedly that was 121.5 /

     243.0 MHz with poor frequency stability, but its the same LEO

     satellite network Doppler fixing our modern 406.025MHz signals. 

     ELTs are still required to have 121.5 MHZ (and perhaps 243.0 MHz

     for military) as a homing signal for the final rescue itself, but

     this is why GPS is so important.



     Once activated, most modern GPSs will fix themselves in seconds

     (up to less than a few minutes depending on almanac download

     status, which happens via the GPS satellites) and then append the

     fix position in the 'long message' format to the Rescue

     Coordination Centre (RCC) via a GEO-stationary satellite (orbiting

     at the same rate the Earth rotates in space, so essentially

     stationary overhead each continent). In this way an accurate GPS

     position is simply ‘bounced' off the GEO satellite to the RCC

     rather than waiting for passing LEO satellites to Doppler fix. 

     Before the first GPS fix is achieved the ELT will nevertheless

     relay your unique 15 digit HEXID to the RCC (which, BTW, can be

     programmed to incorporate the 24-bit address code assigned to the

     aircraft’s ADS-B transponder if you have one), so the RCC knows

     you have an emergency almost instantly.



     Food for thought:



     If you turn the ELT on in flight, it will begin to GPS fix and

     append the position in the signal to the RCC, but it could be that

     first fix takes longer than you have before reaching the

     ground/water.  If you don’t have time to turn the ELT on, it will

     probably activate on impact (my Kannad Compact certainly does),

     however, success then depends on continued integrity of the coax

     cable between the ELT and its antenna, which may be vulnerable to

     crash damage in your particular installation (perhaps lightly

     retained 'service loops' would be wise).  Pre-loading the ELT with

     aircraft GPS position buys you some time to get your position off

     to the RCC on the way down (if you activate the ELT), but either

     way, the ELT isn’t much use if the aircraft sinks underwater, in

     which case you would want to be floating around with a separate

     GPS PLB attached to you.



     My decision was to install an automatic ELT with in-built GPS (non

     aircraft integrated) that I intend to activate immediately in an

     emergency.  If the ELT is damaged, subsequently fails or I have to

     swim out of the cockpit, I also have a PLB attached to myself. 

     Militaries the world over do this too (in both ejection seat and

     non-ejection seat aircraft).



     V/R Stu



     > On 28 Feb 2017, at 12:48, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com

     <mailto:yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

     >

     > 

     <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com <mailto:yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com>>

     >

     > A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does

     not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to

     locate its gps position

     > or

     > the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and

     aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore

     instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to

     locate the gps position when activated.

     >

     > The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the

     kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an

     external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I

     don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

     >

     > Ken

     >

     > On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

     >> Folks,

     >>

     >> Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is

     several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

     >>

     https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

     <https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php>

     >>

     >> Thanks,

     >>    -- Art Z.

     >>

     >> --

     >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/>

     >>

     >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for

     myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

     >

     >

     >

     >

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alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:46 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Except in limited circumstances, in Canada an ELT (either 121.5MHz or 406MHz) is required, yes.

On 28Feb2017, at 6:27 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Are ELT obligatory in the usa and canada?

Will

On Feb 28, 2017 05:59, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:

Hey Ken,

There’s an important safety point to clarify.

The RCC will know that you (specifically you) are experiencing an emergency almost immediately after a serviceable 406 ELT activation, but without a GPS position they can’t know where you are because the satellites can't fix "a rough triangulated position" in quick time.  To fix non-GPS ELTs, a range of multi-role Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites (such as NOAA satellites with a COSPAS/SARSAT payload) track a network of orbital paths over the Earth (seemingly straight-line to a ground-based observer).  These satellites receive and triangulate ELT/PLB/EPIRB fixes sent on 406.025 MHz, but the satellite can’t tell which side you are on, so one satellite pass produces both a true and a false Doppler fix on opposite sides of track.  Unless one fix is wildly improbable, first responders will often wait for a second, corroborating fix to resolve the ambiguity.  Coverage is probably more saturated over the USA than here in Aus, but it can still take hours to resolve the ambiguity!

  with a second LEO satellite pass on a different track.  The accuracy of the Doppler fix depends on the stability of the ELT transmission frequency, which is why the old 121.5 / 243.0 MHz satellite receiver component was decommissioned over a decade ago (and that swept-tone ELT signals were generic and not unique to a particular platform, plus there was a 95% false alarm rate).  For example, one of our old C-130H ELTs ejected from the tail in a known location and it took the LEO satellite system 9.5 hours to Doppler fix the initial location.  Admittedly that was 121.5 / 243.0 MHz with poor frequency stability, but its the same LEO satellite network Doppler fixing our modern 406.025MHz signals.  ELTs are still required to have 121.5 MHZ (and perhaps 243.0 MHz for military) as a homing signal for the final rescue itself, but this is why GPS is so important.

Once activated, most modern GPSs will fix themselves in seconds (up to less than a few minutes depending on almanac download status, which happens via the GPS satellites) and then append the fix position in the 'long message' format to the Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) via a GEO-stationary satellite (orbiting at the same rate the Earth rotates in space, so essentially stationary overhead each continent). In this way an accurate GPS position is simply ‘bounced' off the GEO satellite to the RCC rather than waiting for passing LEO satellites to Doppler fix.  Before the first GPS fix is achieved the ELT will nevertheless relay your unique 15 digit HEXID to the RCC (which, BTW, can be programmed to incorporate the 24-bit address code assigned to the aircraft’s ADS-B transponder if you have one), so the RCC knows you have an emergency almost instantly.

Food for thought:

If you turn the ELT on in flight, it will begin to GPS fix and append the position in the signal to the RCC, but it could be that first fix takes longer than you have before reaching the ground/water.  If you don’t have time to turn the ELT on, it will probably activate on impact (my Kannad Compact certainly does), however, success then depends on continued integrity of the coax cable between the ELT and its antenna, which may be vulnerable to crash damage in your particular installation (perhaps lightly retained 'service loops' would be wise).  Pre-loading the ELT with aircraft GPS position buys you some time to get your position off to the RCC on the way down (if you activate the ELT), but either way, the ELT isn’t much use if the aircraft sinks underwater, in which case you would want to be floating around with a separate GPS PLB attached to you.

My decision was to install an automatic ELT with in-built GPS (non aircraft integrated) that I intend to activate immediately in an emergency.  If the ELT is damaged, subsequently fails or I have to swim out of the cockpit, I also have a PLB attached to myself.  Militaries the world over do this too (in both ejection seat and non-ejection seat aircraft).

V/R Stu

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Feb 2017, at 12:48, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 or

 the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

 Ken

 On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

> Folks,

>

> Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

> https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

>

> Thanks,

>    -- Art Z.

>

> --

> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

>

> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

====================================

-

Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

====================================

FORUMS -

eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

====================================

b Site -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Correct.  For the U.S., ELT requirements are detailed in FAR 91.207.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/jhl8hfm

The exception that's most commonly applicable to the Experimental aircraft community is that single seat aircraft are exempt.  The wisdom of flying alone without an emergency transmitter of some kind is another question...

Eric



On Feb 28, 2017, at 5:31 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Short answer, yes.

However, in the US (I don't know Canadian specifics) even the 1st generation, circa 1973 ELTs are legal to meet the requirement if they were installed prior to a specified date. 2nd generation 121.5 ELTs are required for new installations. 406 units are not required, no upgrade requirement forecast. It is all up to the aircraft owner what they want and are willing to pay.

One overriding consideration is that a large portion of the US fleet must install ADS-B by 2020. It will provide an automatic trace of the aircraft for all but the first and last few hundred feet above the ground, depending on proximity to ground receivers. After spending $3000 and up for that equipment, owners may be reluctant to pay another $1000 for a 406 ELT and installation.



On 2/28/2017 4:27 AM, William Daniell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Are ELT obligatory in the usa and canada?

Will

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Stu,

I do always carry a PLB with me.

Why don't you buy the NEMA adapter so that your Kannad always knows your GPS position. That way, when you hit that button while going down, SAR will know exactly where you are. I don't particularly like spending another $342 but it's worth it to me. Alaska is big and it's hard to find lost airplanes. Many are never found.

Ken

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)>

 Hey Ken,

 There’s an important safety point to clarify.

 The RCC will know that you (specifically you) are experiencing an emergency almost immediately after a serviceable 406 ELT activation, but without a GPS position they can’t know where you are because the satellites can't fix "a rough triangulated position" in quick time.  To fix non-GPS ELTs, a range of multi-role Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites (such as NOAA satellites with a COSPAS/SARSAT payload) track a network of orbital paths over the Earth (seemingly straight-line to a ground-based observer).  These satellites receive and triangulate ELT/PLB/EPIRB fixes sent on 406.025 MHz, but the satellite can’t tell which side you are on, so one satellite pass produces both a true and a false Doppler fix on opposite sides of track.  Unless one fix is wildly improbable, first responders will often wait for a second, corroborating fix to resolve the ambiguity.  Coverage is probably more saturated over the USA than here in Aus, but it can still take hours to resolve the ambiguity!

   with a second LEO satellite pass on a different track.  The accuracy of the Doppler fix depends on the stability of the ELT transmission frequency, which is why the old 121.5 / 243.0 MHz satellite receiver component was decommissioned over a decade ago (and that swept-tone ELT signals were generic and not unique to a particular platform, plus there was a 95% false alarm rate).  For example, one of our old C-130H ELTs ejected from the tail in a known location and it took the LEO satellite system 9.5 hours to Doppler fix the initial location.  Admittedly that was 121.5 / 243.0 MHz with poor frequency stability, but its the same LEO satellite network Doppler fixing our modern 406.025MHz signals.  ELTs are still required to have 121.5 MHZ (and perhaps 243.0 MHz for military) as a homing signal for the final rescue itself, but this is why GPS is so important.

 Once activated, most modern GPSs will fix themselves in seconds (up to less than a few minutes depending on almanac download status, which happens via the GPS satellites) and then append the fix position in the 'long message' format to the Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) via a GEO-stationary satellite (orbiting at the same rate the Earth rotates in space, so essentially stationary overhead each continent). In this way an accurate GPS position is simply ‘bounced' off the GEO satellite to the RCC rather than waiting for passing LEO satellites to Doppler fix.  Before the first GPS fix is achieved the ELT will nevertheless relay your unique 15 digit HEXID to the RCC (which, BTW, can be programmed to incorporate the 24-bit address code assigned to the aircraft’s ADS-B transponder if you have one), so the RCC knows you have an emergency almost instantly.

 Food for thought:

 If you turn the ELT on in flight, it will begin to GPS fix and append the position in the signal to the RCC, but it could be that first fix takes longer than you have before reaching the ground/water.  If you don’t have time to turn the ELT on, it will probably activate on impact (my Kannad Compact certainly does), however, success then depends on continued integrity of the coax cable between the ELT and its antenna, which may be vulnerable to crash damage in your particular installation (perhaps lightly retained 'service loops' would be wise).  Pre-loading the ELT with aircraft GPS position buys you some time to get your position off to the RCC on the way down (if you activate the ELT), but either way, the ELT isn’t much use if the aircraft sinks underwater, in which case you would want to be floating around with a separate GPS PLB attached to you.

 My decision was to install an automatic ELT with in-built GPS (non aircraft integrated) that I intend to activate immediately in an emergency.  If the ELT is damaged, subsequently fails or I have to swim out of the cockpit, I also have a PLB attached to myself.  Militaries the world over do this too (in both ejection seat and non-ejection seat aircraft).

 V/R Stu

 > On 28 Feb 2017, at 12:48, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 > or

 > the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 >

 > The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

 >

 > Ken

 >

 > On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

 >> Folks,

 >>

 >> Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

 >> https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

 >>

 >> Thanks,

 >>    -- Art Z.

 >>

 >> --

 >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

 >>

 >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ================================

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:27 am Post subject: Kannad Integra ELT

Excellent thanks

I am planning a move from Colombia to the US hence my interest.  ELT are not required for Colombia Class 2 ultralights under which my Europa will be "certified".  So I g

William Daniell

LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)>

 Except in limited circumstances, in Canada an ELT (either 121.5MHz or 406MHz) is required, yes.

 On 28Feb2017, at 6:27 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 Are ELT obligatory in the usa and canada?

 Will

 On Feb 28, 2017 05:59, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)>

 Hey Ken,

 There’s an important safety point to clarify.

 The RCC will know that you (specifically you) are experiencing an emergency almost immediately after a serviceable 406 ELT activation, but without a GPS position they can’t know where you are because the satellites can't fix "a rough triangulated position" in quick time.  To fix non-GPS ELTs, a range of multi-role Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites (such as NOAA satellites with a COSPAS/SARSAT payload) track a network of orbital paths over the Earth (seemingly straight-line to a ground-based observer).  These satellites receive and triangulate ELT/PLB/EPIRB fixes sent on 406.025 MHz, but the satellite can’t tell which side you are on, so one satellite pass produces both a true and a false Doppler fix on opposite sides of track.  Unless one fix is wildly improbable, first responders will often wait for a second, corroborating fix to resolve the ambiguity.  Coverage is probably more saturated over the USA than here in Aus, but it can still take hours to resolve the ambiguity!

   with a second LEO satellite pass on a different track.  The accuracy of the Doppler fix depends on the stability of the ELT transmission frequency, which is why the old 121.5 / 243.0 MHz satellite receiver component was decommissioned over a decade ago (and that swept-tone ELT signals were generic and not unique to a particular platform, plus there was a 95% false alarm rate).  For example, one of our old C-130H ELTs ejected from the tail in a known location and it took the LEO satellite system 9.5 hours to Doppler fix the initial location.  Admittedly that was 121.5 / 243.0 MHz with poor frequency stability, but its the same LEO satellite network Doppler fixing our modern 406.025MHz signals.  ELTs are still required to have 121.5 MHZ (and perhaps 243.0 MHz for military) as a homing signal for the final rescue itself, but this is why GPS is so important.

 Once activated, most modern GPSs will fix themselves in seconds (up to less than a few minutes depending on almanac download status, which happens via the GPS satellites) and then append the fix position in the 'long message' format to the Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) via a GEO-stationary satellite (orbiting at the same rate the Earth rotates in space, so essentially stationary overhead each continent). In this way an accurate GPS position is simply ‘bounced' off the GEO satellite to the RCC rather than waiting for passing LEO satellites to Doppler fix.  Before the first GPS fix is achieved the ELT will nevertheless relay your unique 15 digit HEXID to the RCC (which, BTW, can be programmed to incorporate the 24-bit address code assigned to the aircraft’s ADS-B transponder if you have one), so the RCC knows you have an emergency almost instantly.

 Food for thought:

 If you turn the ELT on in flight, it will begin to GPS fix and append the position in the signal to the RCC, but it could be that first fix takes longer than you have before reaching the ground/water.  If you don’t have time to turn the ELT on, it will probably activate on impact (my Kannad Compact certainly does), however, success then depends on continued integrity of the coax cable between the ELT and its antenna, which may be vulnerable to crash damage in your particular installation (perhaps lightly retained 'service loops' would be wise).  Pre-loading the ELT with aircraft GPS position buys you some time to get your position off to the RCC on the way down (if you activate the ELT), but either way, the ELT isn’t much use if the aircraft sinks underwater, in which case you would want to be floating around with a separate GPS PLB attached to you.

 My decision was to install an automatic ELT with in-built GPS (non aircraft integrated) that I intend to activate immediately in an emergency.  If the ELT is damaged, subsequently fails or I have to swim out of the cockpit, I also have a PLB attached to myself.  Militaries the world over do this too (in both ejection seat and non-ejection seat aircraft).

 V/R Stu

 > On 28 Feb 2017, at 12:48, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > A couple of  years ago my choice came down to a kannad that does not need an external antenna but does take several minutes to locate its gps position

 > or

 > the Ack that receives gps location from my portable nav gps and aircraft power whenever my master switch is on, and can therefore instantly transmit that gps position without taking minutes to locate the gps position when activated.

 >

 > The satelites should get a rough triangulated position from the kannad immediately but not a precise gps position. OTOH loss of an external antenna on competing ELT's is a significant concern. I don't know how much of this still applies to the current units.

 >

 > Ken

 >

 > On 27/02/2017 6:55 PM, Art Zemon wrote:

 >> Folks,

 >>

 >> Do you have any thoughts about the Kannad Integrat ELT? It is several hundred dollars less expensive than the competition.

 >> https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadintegraeasy.php

 >>

 >> Thanks,

 >>    -- Art Z.

 >>

 >> --

 >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/

 >>

 >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/

 >

 >

 >

 >

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