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Air Tank Cocktail
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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:01 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

I'm rinsing my main air tank. 



I have glycerin from Doug, but how much of that and how much alcohol and what kind of alcohol goes in? Mixed together or just put them in and let them work it out?



Also, put a little tool oil in the main tank or no?



Thanks,

Jon

Vic

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria

Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

What´s good about glycerin when you expect to get water in the tank ?? That will be washed away soon and be gone. You want rust protection, no ? We use real sticky chain lube from spray cans, let the thinner in it dry before assembly and  no rust for years. 



    Vic

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:35 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

I am no expert in these matters, but is it a good idea to have a mixture of

grease, presumably slightly inflammable, with very high pressure air?

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

--

Vic

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

Richard, 

I suggested having the thinner dried before assembling the system. High pressure - 50 bar ?? Or else, injecting pure alcohol into the system not flammable ??



    Vic

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:54 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Good point - but I do know that highly compressed air and anything flammable

is not a great idea!



Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

--

Vic

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

Richard,

don´t confuse (mildly) compressed air with pure oxygen. I would definitely NOT advise grease or some such in oxygen cylinders. But simple grease or oil is not easy to ignite, like in Diesels. You´d require a LOT more pressure plus temperature to get the bang. Anybody operating his Diesel will know , even more so in winter times. No, I don´t see any problem here, never had any since ten years with chain grease in the tank. But then, we never had any visible water there too, in the 18 T. Dunno, why not . . . 



    Vic

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:22 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Gents,Both Glycerin and alcohol are humectants, meaning that they absorb moisture.  The "cocktail" is fully described in the manual, which most of us have but for some reason fail to read.  

Castor oil is also used in the pneumatic system, and is VERY effective in stopping the tiny leaks which plague us all on occasion.  It too is covered in the manual.

Best,

Doug

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 2:32 AM, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)>

 

 I am no expert in these matters, but is it a good idea to have a mixture of

 grease, presumably slightly inflammable, with very high pressure air?

 

 

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 

 Tel:  [url=tel:%2B44%20%280%29%201544%20340120]+44 (0) 1544 340120[/url]

 Fax: [url=tel:%2B44%20%280%29%201544%20340129]+44 (0) 1544 340129[/url]

 www.russianaeros.com

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:22 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

The subject of what to mix up and put in the pneumatic system has been an on-again, off-again topic for decades now.  It seems that everyone has their own idea of "extra ingredients" that can be added to make it even better.   I respect the fact that Jon is actually ASKING about "tool oil" here, and not just doing it out of hand because someone else suggested it.  For the record, I followed lots of advice when I first purchased my Russian aircraft one of which was adding pneumatic tool oil to the mixture of "stuff" to blow into the pneumatic system.  The result was a total failure of the chevron seals in the landing gear actuators.  Were they old to begin with?  Yes they were.  However, adding that tool oil was without a doubt the catalyst that led to their demise and I was just lucky that I didn't end up becoming a statistic.  



Experimental aircraft owners have a lot of latitude on what they can do with their airplanes but I would suggest caution when implementing ideas that are not covered in the maintenance manuals.  



Mark 



p.s.  Jon, don't add any "tool oil" or anything else that will end up being blown through the aircrafts pneumatic system.  Instead stick to the plan.  The one the people who made the airplane recommend.

--

Harv

Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

I believe the manual also mentions applying varnish to protect from rust.



Once the  tanks are rust free and clean could a simple 2k clear lacquer be applied (or something like POR15) with a sloshing action and then drained and allowed to cure, once coated rust won't form..?

threein60

Joined: 04 Feb 2016
Posts: 51
Location: Everett Wa

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

There is a lot of opinions on this.   I did the same inspection during my last 100hr and I believe Doug Sapp suggested pure Castor oil.  That is what I did, but I'm sure others used all sorts of stuff.

Larry Pine





       From: Harv <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 10:31 AM

 Subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

  

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Harv" <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)>



I believe the manual also mentions applying varnish to protect from rust.



Once the  tanks are rust free and clean could a simple 2k clear lacquer be applied (or something like POR15) with a sloshing action and then drained and allowed to cure, once coated rust won't form..?





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466831#466831"http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.co="http://wiki.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution<b============

markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Harv,

     Anything that can harden can fracture.  I'd be worried about fractured

bits moving through the system that wouldn't be friendly to the actuators

and cylinders or start system.  Whatever gunk forms in the system seems to

be carried out with an occasional dose of glycerine/alcohol in my system.

I've even cured a leaking actuator in my landing gear before by giving it a

shot of glycerine/alcohol.  The handful of snot in my hand after cycling the

gear a few times must've had the culprit mixed in with it.  That's my

experience, YMMV.



Mark Davis

N44YK

--

Robin Hou

Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 15
Location: El Monte, CA

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:25 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Since the subject of this post has drifted to main tank rust prevention, I always wonder if adding an additional stainless steel compress air/water filter from Doug Sapp to the main tank outlet would help the entire system stay clean?  



Do you see any down side to this idea (other then the added cost and maintenance which are fairly minimum)?

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)>

 

 Harv,

      Anything that can harden can fracture.  I'd be worried about fractured

 bits moving through the system that wouldn't be friendly to the actuators

 and cylinders or start system.  Whatever gunk forms in the system seems to

 be carried out with an occasional dose of glycerine/alcohol in my system.

 I've even cured a leaking actuator in my landing gear before by giving it a

 shot of glycerine/alcohol.  The handful of snot in my hand after cycling the

 gear a few times must've had the culprit mixed in with it.  That's my

 experience, YMMV.

 

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

 

 

 --

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

I guess you could put one on the output side as well. But because the 

compressor on the CJ fills both the main and emergency bottles, you 

should really put one on the output of both tanks.



The way the moisture gets into the tank in the first place is from the 

compressor.That's why putting Doug's SS filter on the input to the tank 

is the best thing you can do...stop the moisture to the maximum extent 

possible from entering the two tanks.

Dennis

On 3/3/2017 7:23 PM, Robin Hou wrote:

[quote] Since the subject of this post has drifted to main tank rust 

 prevention, I always wonder if adding an additional stainless steel 

 compress air/water filter from Doug Sapp to the main tank outlet would 

 help the entire system stay clean?



 Do you see any down side to this idea (other then the added cost and 

 maintenance which are fairly minimum)?



 On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org 

 <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>> wrote:



     

     <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>>



     Harv,

          Anything that can harden can fracture.  I'd be worried about

     fractured

     bits moving through the system that wouldn't be friendly to the

     actuators

     and cylinders or start system.  Whatever gunk forms in the system

     seems to

     be carried out with an occasional dose of glycerine/alcohol in my

     system.

     I've even cured a leaking actuator in my landing gear before by

     giving it a

     shot of glycerine/alcohol.  The handful of snot in my hand after

     cycling the

     gear a few times must've had the culprit mixed in with it. That's my

     experience, YMMV.



     Mark Davis

     N44YK

     --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

It's also important to have a tight air system. In a normally operating system the air compressor will charge up the air system up to operating pressure and then that air remains static in the plumbing, while the remaining air being produced by the compressor just blows by the pressure regulator prior to the desiccant. But if you ignore a leaky air valve or actuator, then you end up with air constantly flowing through your system very rapidly depleting the moisture absorbing capacity of your desiccant which then leads to very wet air flowing through your air system from it's point of origin at the compressor to where it ultimately finds it's way out at the leak. 



This can happen very rapidly with a sufficient leak. If you feel moisture on your hand when you actuate your flaps or gear, thats water blowing out of the exhaust port, and means you have water in your system and your desiccant is dead.



Ernie



On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 8:48 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

 

 I guess you could put one on the output side as well. But because the compressor on the CJ fills both the main and emergency bottles, you should really put one on the output of both tanks.

 

 The way the moisture gets into the tank in the first place is from the compressor.That's why putting Doug's SS filter on the input to the tank is the best thing you can do...stop the moisture to the maximum extent possible from entering the two tanks.

 Dennis

 

 

 On 3/3/2017 7:23 PM, Robin Hou wrote:

 [quote] Since the subject of this post has drifted to main tank rust prevention, I always wonder if adding an additional stainless steel compress air/water filter from Doug Sapp to the main tank outlet would help the entire system stay clean?

 

 Do you see any down side to this idea (other then the added cost and maintenance which are fairly minimum)?

 

 On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org) <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)>> wrote:

 

     --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)

     <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)>>

 

     Harv,

          Anything that can harden can fracture.  I'd be worried about

     fractured

     bits moving through the system that wouldn't be friendly to the

     actuators

     and cylinders or start system.  Whatever gunk forms in the system

     seems to

     be carried out with an occasional dose of glycerine/alcohol in my

     system.

     I've even cured a leaking actuator in my landing gear before by

     giving it a

     shot of glycerine/alcohol.  The handful of snot in my hand after

     cycling the

     gear a few times must've had the culprit mixed in with it. That's my

     experience, YMMV.

 

     Mark Davis

     N44YK

 

 

     --

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:52 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Ernie is absolutely correct in his statement.  Good job Ernie pointing 

that out.



A. Dennis Savarese

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 3/3/2017 9:14 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:

[quote] It's also important to have a tight air system. In a normally 

 operating system the air compressor will charge up the air system up 

 to operating pressure and then that air remains static in the 

 plumbing, while the remaining air being produced by the compressor 

 just blows by the pressure regulator prior to the desiccant. But if 

 you ignore a leaky air valve or actuator, then you end up with air 

 constantly flowing through your system very rapidly depleting the 

 moisture absorbing capacity of your desiccant which then leads to very 

 wet air flowing through your air system from it's point of origin at 

 the compressor to where it ultimately finds it's way out at the leak.



 This can happen very rapidly with a sufficient leak. If you feel 

 moisture on your hand when you actuate your flaps or gear, thats water 

 blowing out of the exhaust port, and means you have water in your 

 system and your desiccant is dead.

 Ernie



 On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 8:48 PM, A. Dennis Savarese 

 <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>> wrote:



     

     <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>>



     I guess you could put one on the output side as well. But because

     the compressor on the CJ fills both the main and emergency

     bottles, you should really put one on the output of both tanks.



     The way the moisture gets into the tank in the first place is from

     the compressor.That's why putting Doug's SS filter on the input to

     the tank is the best thing you can do...stop the moisture to the

     maximum extent possible from entering the two tanks.

     Dennis

     On 3/3/2017 7:23 PM, Robin Hou wrote:



         Since the subject of this post has drifted to main tank rust

         prevention, I always wonder if adding an additional stainless

         steel compress air/water filter from Doug Sapp to the main

         tank outlet would help the entire system stay clean?



         Do you see any down side to this idea (other then the added

         cost and maintenance which are fairly minimum)?



         On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Davis

         <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>

         <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>>>

         wrote:



             

         <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>

             <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org <mailto:markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>>>



             Harv,

                  Anything that can harden can fracture.  I'd be

         worried about

             fractured

             bits moving through the system that wouldn't be friendly

         to the

             actuators

             and cylinders or start system.  Whatever gunk forms in the

         system

             seems to

             be carried out with an occasional dose of

         glycerine/alcohol in my

             system.

             I've even cured a leaking actuator in my landing gear

         before by

             giving it a

             shot of glycerine/alcohol.  The handful of snot in my hand

         after

             cycling the

             gear a few times must've had the culprit mixed in with it.

         That's my

             experience, YMMV.



             Mark Davis

             N44YK

             --

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Agree with Mark. Keep tool oil out of the air system. Got that T shirt too. 

Doc



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Mar 3, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

 

 

 

 The subject of what to mix up and put in the pneumatic system has been an on-again, off-again topic for decades now.  It seems that everyone has their own idea of "extra ingredients" that can be added to make it even better.   I respect the fact that Jon is actually ASKING about "tool oil" here, and not just doing it out of hand because someone else suggested it.  For the record, I followed lots of advice when I first purchased my Russian aircraft one of which was adding pneumatic tool oil to the mixture of "stuff" to blow into the pneumatic system.  The result was a total failure of the chevron seals in the landing gear actuators.  Were they old to begin with?  Yes they were.  However, adding that tool oil was without a doubt the catalyst that led to their demise and I was just lucky that I didn't end up becoming a statistic.  

 

 Experimental aircraft owners have a lot of latitude on what they can do with their airplanes but I would suggest caution when implementing ideas that are not covered in the maintenance manuals.  

 

 Mark 

 

 p.s.  Jon, don't add any "tool oil" or anything else that will end up being blown through the aircrafts pneumatic system.  Instead stick to the plan.  The one the people who made the airplane recommend.

 

 

 --

_________________
Viperdoc

Ttail

Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 120

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

" The "cocktail" is fully described in the manual, which most of us have but for some reason fail to read. "



Help us out here Doug what is the formula in the manual ? .... away from home so away from the books

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail

A&P in my area who has been working on Yaks and my CJ for many years has always recommended and used antifreeze in the air system.  Great lubricant, absorbs water, not petroleum based,  rust inhibitors in it and similar consistency to what is recommended in the manual, etc, etc. 



YMMV,



Craig

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Interesting.  I'm wondering what the antifreeze does to the rubber seals in the actuators and unlock assemblies?  Just for grins, try soaking a couple of the replacement chevron seals for a few days and see if they swell or any sign of deterioration. Let us know the results please. 

Dennis



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 7, 2017, at 1:47 PM, ChangDriver <capav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 A&P in my area who has been working on Yaks and my CJ for many years has always recommended and used antifreeze in the air system.  Great lubricant, absorbs water, not petroleum based,  rust inhibitors in it and similar consistency to what is recommended in the manual, etc, etc. 

 

 YMMV,

 

 Craig

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466971#466971

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail

Craig,  I disagree with your A&P's recommendation.   I would ask him what other aircraft pneumatic system has he experience with where he unilaterally added antifreeze  because he "felt it was a good idea".   And I'll put it out there in another way.  How about if your A&P mechanic calls an FAA maintenance inspector and says: "Hey, I'm working on this Chinese and Russian aircraft that has a pneumatic system used for flaps, landing gear and brakes..... what are your feeling about me adding ANTIFREEZE into the system, because hey... it is a great lubricant, absorbs water, has rust inhibitors, etc., etc.   Do that and let's see what they say.   



RTFM (Read the Manual) 



Mark



p.s.  I've been working on Russian aircraft for 18 years now, and military aircraft for 47 years.  Just FYI, military aircraft also have high pressure pneumatic systems and we do NOT recommend adding antifreeze to the system.... ever.   

--

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