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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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 Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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The main ingredient in Antifreeze is ethylene glycol which when oxidized eventually turns into oxalic acid. Not too good for aluminum, and IÂ don't know how long term exposure would affect steel.
Ernie
On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Craig, I disagree with your A&P's recommendation.  I would ask him what other aircraft pneumatic system has he experience with where he unilaterally added antifreeze because he "felt it was a good idea".  And I'll put it out there in another way. How about if your A&P mechanic calls an FAA maintenance inspector and says: "Hey, I'm working on this Chinese and Russian aircraft that has a pneumatic system used for flaps, landing gear and brakes.... what are your feeling about me adding ANTIFREEZE into the system, because hey... it is a great lubricant, absorbs water, has rust inhibitors, etc., etc.  Do that and let's see what they say.
RTFM (Read the Manual)
Mark
p.s. I've been working on Russian aircraft for 18 years now, and military aircraft for 47 years. Just FYI, military aircraft also have high pressure pneumatic systems and we do NOT recommend adding antifreeze to the system.... ever.
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Well, well...what a way to light up the Yak list. At least I didn't say I put MMO in the system!
Mark: Experimental Aircraft....what is the difference between antifreeze, air tool oil, WD-40, chainsaw lube, or any other thing I have heard go into the system. Most of which can destroy it because of being petroleum based products.
Yep...the manual says Castor Oil and it was written in China 60 years ago. Glycerin is KY Jelly....use it where it is meant to be used lol.
As far as "oxidation to Oxalic Acid" is concerned. Yes..if you swallow the stuff it does degrade in the metabolic pathway to Glycolic Acid and Oxalic Acid. My plane may be different but it has no digestive system or digestive enzymes in it.
Dennis: I don't have any chevron seals to soak in the stuff. Would be nice to try. I do know that it has no effect on any rubber used in any cooling system across the world.
I have read the manual too.
Craig
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draftsjust417(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Lots of ideas whizzing back and forth...
I'll chip in my 2-cents:
Years back I added a spritz of WD-40 to my CJ's pneu system, and very soon after a rubber seal in a firewall check valve completely broke down into pieces.
So I was AOG while I completely cleaned out the system.
    I first opened & washed inside every tube with potent ipa/isopropyl alcohol (90% ipa, higher grade than the typical 70% ipa of first aid kits), quickly blew out each tube out with compressed air, and then lubricated with drops of castor oil.
Replacing numerous check valves and the main SOV, the system has never worked or held its air better.
That said, all I use now is castor oil & dessicant kits from Doug. We'll see if it gunks up over the years, but so far this is working well for me.
Justin
N280NC
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:59 PM, ChangDriver <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)>
Well, well...what a way to light up the Yak list. At least I didn't say I put MMO in the system!
Mark: Experimental Aircraft....what is the difference between antifreeze, air tool oil, WD-40, chainsaw lube, or any other thing I have heard go into the system. Most of which can destroy it because of being petroleum based products.
Yep...the manual says Castor Oil and it was written in China 60 years ago. Glycerin is KY Jelly....use it where it is meant to be used lol.
As far as "oxidation to Oxalic Acid" is concerned. Yes..if you swallow the stuff it does degrade in the metabolic pathway to Glycolic Acid and Oxalic Acid. My plane may be different but it has no digestive system or digestive enzymes in it.
Dennis: I don't have any chevron seals to soak in the stuff. Would be nice to try. I do know that it has no effect on any rubber used in any cooling system across the world.
I have read the manual too.
Craig
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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You may want to google Oxidation. You don't need to swallow steel for it to rust.
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 2:59 PM, ChangDriver <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "ChangDriver" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)>
Well, well...what a way to light up the Yak list. At least I didn't say I put MMO in the system!
Mark: Experimental Aircraft....what is the difference between antifreeze, air tool oil, WD-40, chainsaw lube, or any other thing I have heard go into the system. Most of which can destroy it because of being petroleum based products.
Yep...the manual says Castor Oil and it was written in China 60 years ago. Glycerin is KY Jelly....use it where it is meant to be used lol.
As far as "oxidation to Oxalic Acid" is concerned. Yes..if you swallow the stuff it does degrade in the metabolic pathway to Glycolic Acid and Oxalic Acid. My plane may be different but it has no digestive system or digestive enzymes in it.
Dennis: I don't have any chevron seals to soak in the stuff. Would be nice to try. I do know that it has no effect on any rubber used in any cooling system across the world.
I have read the manual too.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467033#467033
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:49 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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On castor oil from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil
Vegetable oils like castor oil are typically unattractive alternatives to petroleum-derived lubricants because of their poor oxidative stability.[30][31] Castor oil has better low-temperature viscosity properties and high-temperature lubrication than most vegetable oils, making it useful as a lubricant in jet, diesel, and racing engines.[32] The viscosity of castor oil at 10 °C is 2,420 centipoise.[33] However, castor oil tends to form gums in a short time, and therefore its usefulness is limited to engines that are regularly rebuilt, such as racing engines. The lubricants company Castrol took its name from castor oil.Castor oil has been suggested as a lubricant for bicycle pumps because it does not degrade natural rubber seals.[34]
This site rates its suitability against various o rings materials
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Castor%20Oil
[quote]--
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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And it helps you poop.
[quote]On Mar 8, 2017, at 16:42, William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)> wrote:
On castor oil from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil
Vegetable oils like castor oil are typically unattractive alternatives to petroleum-derived lubricants because of their poor oxidative stability.[30][31] Castor oil has better low-temperature viscosity properties and high-temperature lubrication than most vegetable oils, making it useful as a lubricant in jet, diesel, and racing engines.[32] The viscosity of castor oil at 10 °C is 2,420 centipoise.[33] However, castor oil tends to form gums in a short time, and therefore its usefulness is limited to engines that are regularly rebuilt, such as racing engines. The lubricants company Castrol took its name from castor oil.
Castor oil has been suggested as a lubricant for bicycle pumps because it does not degrade natural rubber seals.[34]
This site rates its suitability against various o rings materials
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Castor%20Oil
[quote]--
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:24 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Antifreeze????
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:03 PM William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]And it helps you poop.
[quote]On Mar 8, 2017, at 16:42, William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)> wrote:
On castor oil from: Â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil
Vegetable oils like castor oil are typically unattractive alternatives to petroleum-derived lubricants because of their poor oxidative stability.[30][31] Castor oil has better low-temperature viscosity properties and high-temperature lubrication than most vegetable oils, making it useful as a lubricant in jet, diesel, and racing engines.[32] The viscosity of castor oil at 10 °C is 2,420 centipoise.[33] However, castor oil tends to form gums in a short time, and therefore its usefulness is limited to engines that are regularly rebuilt, such as racing engines. The lubricants company Castrol took its name from castor oil.
Castor oil has been suggested as a lubricant for bicycle pumps because it does not degrade natural rubber seals.[34]Â
This site rates its suitability against various o rings materials
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Castor%20Oil
[quote]--
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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castor oil. Antifreeze keeps it from freezing hard.[quote]On Mar 8, 2017, at 17:22, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Antifreeze????On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:03 PM William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]And it helps you poop.
[quote]On Mar 8, 2017, at 16:42, William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)> wrote:
On castor oil from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil
Vegetable oils like castor oil are typically unattractive alternatives to petroleum-derived lubricants because of their poor oxidative stability.[30][31] Castor oil has better low-temperature viscosity properties and high-temperature lubrication than most vegetable oils, making it useful as a lubricant in jet, diesel, and racing engines.[32] The viscosity of castor oil at 10 °C is 2,420 centipoise.[33] However, castor oil tends to form gums in a short time, and therefore its usefulness is limited to engines that are regularly rebuilt, such as racing engines. The lubricants company Castrol took its name from castor oil.
Castor oil has been suggested as a lubricant for bicycle pumps because it does not degrade natural rubber seals.[34]
This site rates its suitability against various o rings materials
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Castor%20Oil
[quote]--
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Oh, I thought antifreeze was so you could pee in winter.
On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 9:32 PM William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]castor oil. Antifreeze keeps it from freezing hard.
| Quote: | On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 7:03 PM William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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| Quote: | | Quote: | And it helps you poop.
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[quote][quote][quote][quote]--
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Basically it is two problems here: Rust protection for the air tank and lubrication/rust protection for the lines/tubes/actuators.
For the tank I still believe the dried chain grease from spray cans to be no. one and it worked for me 10 years now.
For the lines I don´t know, but if you google pneumatic antifreeze you will find several products specifically for air brake systems. These additives will absorb water to a degree and provide some lubrication. If that works in trucks so it will do in Yaks. For the cautious you could put some Yak seals into that stuff in a jar for a while and see . No way would I use castor oil anywhere , same goes for WD 40, that forms gum or resin when dry as well .
Also keep in mind that any stuff into the lines may wash down grease in the actuator downlock balls and springs to start corrosion there.
Vic
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Air Tank Cocktail |
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The A&P here has been working on Yaks for over 20 years and currently maintains 4 Yak and my CJ. He also has airline experience as he worked for TWA for many years. So he just didn't wake up one day and decide it was a good idea. It is actually a transfer of knowledge from another industry. There are companies that sell systems to prevent air line icing in cold areas where all sorts of very high pressure air systems can't freeze up. Most use Methanol - a compound to not be messed with. Others use the sister product to antifreeze (ethylene glycol) propylene glycol. Newer "green" antifreeze for the auto industry use propylene glycol as well. Propylene glycol is in lots of our foods, is what people vape and is what makes theatrical smoke. So it is very safe.
If we never used different products for different applications we would not have M-14Ps on CJs (not in the manual), total seal piston rings, fuel injection, coil over ignition, MSD spark on a couple CJs, bladder fuel tanks, and on and on.
Fact is A&P has been recommending/using antifreeze in these airplanes for 20+ years with not issues whatever and there is vast industry use of these chemicals in very high pressure air lines. Most of the cars manufactured now have aluminum radiators and some aluminum blocks as well. Most cooling systems have lots of different rubber components in them and these compounds are safe for them. If someone has a chevron seal they would like to test for the rest of us that would be great but the chevron seals in these Yaks he has been maintaining have been exposed to the stuff for years with the added benefit of rust inhibitors for the steel tanks and other steel components.
As far as the Feds go....they would say...Experimental....and that is exactly what the category is for trying things like Corvair engines on airplanes, etc, etc.
As I said in my original post....YMMV.
Fly safe....an acquaintance of mine died yesterday in his Pitts S2E - clipped trees on landing. Hell of a guy and a true gentleman.
Craig
PS - Now about that MMO (hehe)
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Sorry to hear about your friend.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 9, 2017, at 23:10, ChangDriver <capav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:
The A&P here has been working on Yaks for over 20 years and currently maintains 4 Yak and my CJ. He also has airline experience as he worked for TWA for many years. So he just didn't wake up one day and decide it was a good idea. It is actually a transfer of knowledge from another industry. There are companies that sell systems to prevent air line icing in cold areas where all sorts of very high pressure air systems can't freeze up. Most use Methanol - a compound to not be messed with. Others use the sister product to antifreeze (ethylene glycol) propylene glycol. Newer "green" antifreeze for the auto industry use propylene glycol as well. Propylene glycol is in lots of our foods, is what people vape and is what makes theatrical smoke. So it is very safe.
If we never used different products for different applications we would not have M-14Ps on CJs (not in the manual), total seal piston rings, fuel injection, coil over ignition, MSD spark on a couple CJs, bladder fuel tanks, and on and on.
Fact is A&P has been recommending/using antifreeze in these airplanes for 20+ years with not issues whatever and there is vast industry use of these chemicals in very high pressure air lines. Most of the cars manufactured now have aluminum radiators and some aluminum blocks as well. Most cooling systems have lots of different rubber components in them and these compounds are safe for them. If someone has a chevron seal they would like to test for the rest of us that would be great but the chevron seals in these Yaks he has been maintaining have been exposed to the stuff for years with the added benefit of rust inhibitors for the steel tanks and other steel components.
As far as the Feds go....they would say...Experimental....and that is exactly what the category is for trying things like Corvair engines on airplanes, etc, etc.
As I said in my original post....YMMV.
Fly safe....an acquaintance of mine died yesterday in his Pitts S2E - clipped trees on landing. Hell of a guy and a true gentleman.
Craig
PS - Now about that MMO (hehe)
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467108#467108
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Sorry about your friend. It seems all of us have lost friends to terrible accidents.
------------------------------
Replying to the rest of your message:
No, that is not what the FAA would say. I just got finished asking them.
Craig, I fully believe that you consider your A&P mechanic to be extremely qualified and knowledgeable and that you feel comfortable following his recommendations.
However, I am pretty knowledgeable too and adding anti-freeze to any pneumatic system that comes into contact with seals and O-rings (especially those made in another country) that are essential to safety of flight, is not something I am going to even consider without extensive and personal investigation into what exact materials were used in their construction followed by a complete and thorough testing of what possible impact any additive might make to the complete system that could impact the safe operation of the aircraft.
I offer that exact advice to every aircraft owner/operator.
Mark
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Just for the record... antifreeze was used extensively in older systems in the water they would use to inject to increase the air density and thus power. JB
From: "Mark G CIV NAVAIR Bitterlich, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2017 11:39:01 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Air Tank Cocktail
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Sorry about your friend. It seems all of us have lost friends to terrible accidents.
------------------------------
Replying to the rest of your message:
No, that is not what the FAA would say. I just got finished asking them.
Craig, I fully believe that you consider your A&P mechanic to be extremely qualified and knowledgeable and that you feel comfortable following his recommendations.
However, I am pretty knowledgeable too and adding anti-freeze to any pneumatic system that comes into contact with seals and O-rings (especially those made in another country) that are essential to safety of flight, is not something I am going to even consider without extensive and personal investigation into what exact materials were used in their construction followed by a complete and thorough testing of what possible impact any additive might make to the complete system that could impact the safe operation of the aircraft.
I offer that exact advice to every aircraft owner/operator.
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: Air Tank Cocktail |
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Absolutely correct. A water/methanol anti-freeze concoction is still available for injection into the Pegasus engine used in the AV-8B Harrier for the same reason.
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