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Tailplane attach

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riveteddragon(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.



1) Â I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.Â  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.Â  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.Â  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).Â  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?

2) Â On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. Â (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Â Is something not done right?Â  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?

3) Â Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?Â  Anyone got pictures of this?

Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Tailplane attach

#3 is the easy one. Inside, immediately route the tubing up, and join left and right sides in a T fitting as high up in the tail one as possible. This will minimize water ingestion problems.



#2. My memory is that It wasn't easy to spin the nut/little panel on. Involved some bending of the cable and/or undoing the other end to gain some slack, I'm no longer sure what I did.



#1. My memory is that there was some allowed range for full elevator travel, not just one number? Ask Vans. I've seen some installations where the stick hits the panel, and the builder just said "I never need that much nose down elevator" Not saying that's right, but ask Vans what the minimum down angle is. PS I presume "in trail" was zero?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

For number 2.Â  I pulled it off and riveted itâ€¦â€¦fast and easy.

 

Rene'

801-721-6080

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:03 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Tailplane attach

 

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

 



1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



 



2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



 



3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?



 



Thanks!



Steven DeFord



925-596-0246 (cell)



RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

Number 1.Â  I filed some of it awayâ€¦â€¦

 

Rene'

801-721-6080

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:03 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Tailplane attach

 

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

 



1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



 



2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



 



3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?



 



Thanks!



Steven DeFord



925-596-0246 (cell)



RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

I see Bob replied well to your       questions so I'll make mine short...

       

       Regarding #1, if you're looking at down-elevator, and the horns       are physically hitting the stops, 

       and you're within a couple degrees, I wouldn't sweat it too much.Â        You'll never find the need

       to go farther than what you have if your nose down hits those       stops.Â  I would say this

       with a little more confidence because you said your up elevator is       within a degree or so of the

       requirements....so your plane must be built pretty much right in       line with the expected

       travels. If you had vast differences in both ends, I'd think maybe       the weldment was

       not correct, but in your case I'd say go with it as it is.Â  If       you're within a couple degrees

       you'll be just fine.Â  Before your first flight, maybe have another       RV guy look over all

       your controls with you just as a second check...preferably an       RV-10 guy.

       

       Tim

       

       

       On 3/14/2017 4:02 PM, Steven DeFord wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the         tailplane/trim/etc.         

         

         1) Â I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator           horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg           down-elevator specified in the manual.Â  I have a degree or so           more up-elevator travel than required.Â  It's almost as though           the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in           the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to           plan.Â  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop           until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to           the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal           rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper           engineering specs for rivet support).Â  Anyone have this           problem, or advice to solve it?

         

         

         2) Â On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the           elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the           starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the           little panel on. Â (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable           is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo           install bracket.) Â Is something not done right?Â  Should I           drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto           the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull           cable, and then re-rivet?

         

         

         3) Â Random question-- where did you guys route your static           source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?Â  Anyone got           pictures of this?

         

         

         Thanks!

         Steven DeFord

         925-596-0246 (cell)

         RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

1) I would recommend that you file as much as you can without going beyond edge distance requirements on the rivets and see how much that gives you.

2) Unscrew the 4 screws holding the plate under the HS attachment deck. That will allow you to pull the cable out far enough to screw on the plate. Then do the same on the other side.



3) Many different ways over the years. Usually attached to the bulkhead with zipties to where the two sides meet and T off, then with edge grommet through the lightening holes forward to conduit running under the rear seat and baggage floor and then to the side panels forward.

 Jesse SaintSaint Aviation, Inc.jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)C: 352-427-0285F: 815-377-3694  

  	  Quote: 	
		  On Mar 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?



Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

aerosport1

Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

Steve I think 35 degrees of down is way to much. I believe the recommended amount of down is somewhere between 19 to 23 for 

Down elevator. 



Geoff



Sent from my iPhoneGeoff Combs

Aerosport Modeling & Design

On Mar 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.



1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?

2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?

3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?

Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033

jrlark

Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 72

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

Steve, #1, I filed a bit to get the proper deflection.Â  During my finalÂ  inspection the MDRA inspector (Canada) wanted to know what the angle was supposed to be, to which he measured it to ensure it was per design specifications.  

#2 as others have said, keep working the cable, it should eventually fit.  

#3 again as other said, route both static sources up and â€œTâ€ it off to the front from there.  

Good luck  

Rick  

#40956  

Southampton, Ont  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord

 Sent: March 14, 2017 4:03 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Tailplane attach  

  

     

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.    

   

    

1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?  

    

   

    

2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?  

    

   

    

3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?  

    

   

    

Thanks!  

    

Steven DeFord  

    

925-596-0246 (cell)  

    

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Tailplane attach

I just posted this image via email but it looks like it never made it to the list.

The Elevator tab at 35 degrees down is the elevator trim tab they are talking about not the elevator itself.

final_inspection_limits.png

Description:

Filesize:

206.82 KB

Viewed:

11264 Time(s)

_________________
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

Here are the limits:



[img]cid:BE4809C0-7B6B-4CA4-A359-C4132C5245C8[/img]

Lenny 	  Quote: 	
		  On Mar 14, 2017, at 7:33 PM, g.combs <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com (g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com)> wrote:Steve I think 35 degrees of down is way to much. I believe the recommended amount of down is somewhere between 19 to 23 for Down elevator. GeoffSent from my iPhoneGeoff CombsAerosport Modeling & DesignOn Mar 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?Thanks!Steven DeFord925-596-0246 (cell)RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com

final_inspection_limits.png

Description:

Filesize:

138.65 KB

Viewed:

11263 Time(s)

_________________
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

My takes.





#1 - Geoff sounds right about 35 deg.  That sounds like way too much and I don't have my section 5 here to double check.   But that doesn't seem right to me.  

However, assuming its right, you mentioned that you had some extra up elevator and not enough down.  I'd turn the elev pushrod bearings in a few more turns until your up elevator is within spec and then recheck your down.  You might find that taking the extra off the top will give you enough on the bottom. 

I'd also caution you to not invest much time in reaching this spec until you have the panel, switches, and push/pull cables, and sticks all installed.  If they aren't installed, there's a good chance you're solving a problem that you're only good to have to solve again later down the road with different rigging and bent sticks.  

#2 - Consider using screws to hold the base down.   Just wind it on, then put the screws in with a small wrench to hold the nuts.   You might even be able to use nut plates, but i used nuts and didn't have any issue getting them in there. 

#3 - Brought the pilot side port around the bulkhead and T'd into the Pax side port.    Then brought the T'd line forward through the baggage bulkhead with a snap bushing.    Was sure to move the hole in the bulkhead far enough outboard so it didn't interfere with the bulkhead covers.   Also far enough outboard to slip underneath the cover panel.   I have Geoff's interior panels and they cover that area directly above the longeron that you're staring at when you open the baggage door.  The line is slipped behind that and basically follows the longeron forward (except as needed to route through a few holes along the way.)

Phil



Sent from my iPhone



On Mar 14, 2017, at 4:44 PM, Rene <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

For number 2.  I pulled it off and riveted itâ€¦â€¦fast and easy.

 

Rene'

801-721-6080

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord

Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:03 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Tailplane attach

 

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

 



1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



 



2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



 



3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?



 



Thanks!



Steven DeFord



925-596-0246 (cell)



RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

Ah sure.  For the trim tab you will for sure want good travel for tab down to ensure you have full up-elevator travel and trim.

Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 14, 2017, at 9:07 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I just posted this image via email but it looks like it never made it to the list.

 The Elevator tab at 35 degrees down is the elevator trim tab they are talking about not the elevator itself.

 

 --------

 Lenny

 N311LZ

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467317#467317

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/final_inspection_limits_167.png

riveteddragon(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: Tailplane attach

Thank you-- I hadn't seen that page yet!



Steve



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 14, 2017, at 19:07, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I just posted this image via email but it looks like it never made it to the list.

 The Elevator tab at 35 degrees down is the elevator trim tab they are talking about not the elevator itself.

 

 --------

 Lenny

 N311LZ

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467317#467317

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/final_inspection_limits_167.png

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Tailplane attach

 	  riveteddragon(at)gmail.co wrote: 	
		  Thank you-- I hadn't seen that page yet!



Steve



Sent from my iPhone



	


You're welcome! BTW in older kits that elevator trim nut used to have a crappy weld on it. At the time i was working on mine (2008) there was an aftermarket part available machined out of aluminum. Van's later fixed theirs. I attached mine with #6 screws and locknuts, like Phil suggested.

_________________
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs

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