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Unuseable Full

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Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: Unuseable Full

I have 8 oz in one tank and 9 in the other of unusable full when tanks were

drained while sitting on the ramp. Aircraft was in level cruise flight and

tank was used in flight until fuel pressure started to drop. Switched tanks,

landed and drained tank. Very small amount of unusable fuel  but makes me

aware of the need to frequently check tanks for water/other contamination.

Anyone else have numbers?

Albert Gardner

RV-10 N991RV

Yuma, AZ

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: Unuseable Full

How much is unusable in a takeoff/go-around attitude?  Or a cross-wind slip to landing?  That's the value we all should really be seeking and using to flight plan. 



Fly safe,

Jim



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 28, 2017, at 00:23, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I have 8 oz in one tank and 9 in the other of unusable full when tanks were

 drained while sitting on the ramp. Aircraft was in level cruise flight and

 tank was used in flight until fuel pressure started to drop. Switched tanks,

 landed and drained tank. Very small amount of unusable fuel  but makes me

 aware of the need to frequently check tanks for water/other contamination.

 Anyone else have numbers?

 Albert Gardner

 RV-10 N991RV

 Yuma, AZ

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:28 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

That might be good info but useless.   If you depart or land with that little fuel then you're obviously suicidal and in need of professional help.

IMHO of course!!!!

Linn





Sent from Samsung tablet cruising on the Oasis Of The Seas.

-------- Original message --------

From Jim Beyer <fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com> 

Date: 03/28/2017  1:41 AM  (GMT-05:00) 

To rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject Re: RV10-List: Unuseable Full 

 



--> RV10-List message posted by: Jim Beyer <fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com>



How much is unusable in a takeoff/go-around attitude?  Or a cross-wind slip to landing?  That's the value we all should really be seeking and using to flight plan. 



Fly safe,

Jim



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 28, 2017, at 00:23, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>

 

 I have 8 oz in one tank and 9 in the other of unusable full when tanks were

 drained while sitting on the ramp. Aircraft was in level cruise flight and

 tank was used in flight until fuel pressure started to drop. Switched tanks,

 landed and drained tank. Very small amount of unusable fuel  but makes me

 aware of the need to frequently check tanks for water/other contamination.

 Anyone else have numbers?

 Albert Gardner

 RV-10 N991RV

 Yuma, AZ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


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partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:51 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

Hopefully, if you're, for whatever reason, running right down to the last drop, you won'tÂ be doing anything wierd, other than landing the airplane. Â I purposely ran a tank dry, at very low time, for 2 reasons, one, to find the usable fuel, the other to insure the engine would refire. The results were very comforting; Â could barely fill 1/4 of the plastic fuel tester, and the engine fired back up immediately, with no boost pump necessary.Although we tend to flight plan longer legs than most of our RV friends, it's still nowhere near 55 gallons. Â Usually use 4 hours, and, if necessary, slightly longer, but only if there is/are other fuel choices closer in case fuel burn is higher and/or speed is much slower. Â We are very blessed to be flying a fast and efficient plane, which makes flight planning a whole lot easier.I usually start the flight planning at around 600nm..... looking for the cheapest fuel, at the highest possible airport. Â You'll save fuel and time being able to decend and climb out 5,000' instead of 10,000'.Â Don McDonaldComing up on 1,000 hours and still enjoying every damn minute.In an attempt to share the fun, I now have had over 275 "different" passengers.

      From: Jim Beyer <fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:52 AM

 Subject: Re: Unuseable Full

How much is unusable in a takeoff/go-around attitude?Â  Or a cross-wind slip to landing?Â  That's the value we all should really be seeking and using to flight plan. 

Fly safe,

Jim

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On Mar 28, 2017, at 00:23, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

 I have 8 oz in one tank and 9 in the other of unusable full when tanks were

 drained while sitting on the ramp. Aircraft was in level cruise flight and

 tank was used in flight until fuel pressure started to drop. Switched tanks,

 landed and drained tank. Very small amount of unusable fuelÂ  but makes me

 aware of the need to frequently check tanks for water/other contamination

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:20 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

I somewhat agree.  I think Jim's general concept is correct...you

wouldn't want to flight plan with an amount of fuel that is

expected to be available but may not be under certain conditions.

But, at the same time, you can't really try to simulate the

most extreme situations and come up with a reliable number.

First, let me say that when I did my test, I got maybe a

pop-can's worth of fuel out after flying them empty.

That was in level flight.  Also, I just saw someone posted

on the RV-14 forum that they got between .1 and .2 gallons

remaining doing the same thing.  A pop can is 12oz, which

is also .1 gallons.  So, we can basically know that

there is almost zero unusable fuel in the RV-10/14 design

of wing tanks.  12oz isn't enough for me to say counts

for anything. I certainly can't top my tanks off to within

12oz every time, given uneven pavement and such.

So in the RV-10, I just consider all fuel to be

labeled "useable".

But, the other thing we know about the RV-10 tanks is that

the fuel port is just a couple inches from the aft portion

of the tank near the spar, and it's on the flatter area of

the tank, not on the curved airfoil.  So where Jim

says in a "takeoff/go-around situation", in the RV-10,

that is actually not where I would have my worry.

I think you could actually tap into that last little

bit of fuel better in climb-out, especially if you

mis-applied rudder enough to keep the fuel forced against

the bulkhead.

My big worry, and the reason I really don't fly it down

to less than 5 gallons per tank, has a few reasons:

1) with float error and such, I don't want to count on the

accuracy that low.

2) I have fuel low warnings that come on around 6-7

gallons (each side) if I remember right.  If I go below

that, I'm going to be hitting mute a lot.

3) During landing, if you don't keep the rudder pressure

right, or have a crosswind that you have to correct for,

you could easily un-port that fuel port even with a couple

gallons in there.

4) This is the big one...  In landing configuration, the

RV-10 tips quite a bit nose down if you are landing

with full flaps. (I almost always do) and you are far

more likely to un-port the fuel inlet when it all

sloshes forward in the tank.

So I really don't like the idea of trying to bring a plane

in at low fuel levels.

In teaching landings, BTW, we all know that there

are 2 ways to do the crosswind correction.  I've been

teaching them a bunch lately.  You can crab to landing

and then kick the rudder in just before you touch down,

or you can hold the slip correction all the way down final.

Another instructor I know does not even TEACH the former

method, and I am not thrilled by this.  I specifically

teach my students that although the slip to final is

easier for initial learning, they will absolutely

want to work to perfect the crab and kick-in the rudder

method.  It will be really the only way to help

guard against fuel un-porting in lower fuel situations,

and there are planes like one I used to own, that

are placarded "slips with flaps prohibited".  So I

see this as a very necessary skill for pilots.

Taking into consideration the above, that's how I

came to my personal minimum of 10 gallons remaining

for the RV-10.  In fact, I think my lowest was 10.2,

and that only happened one time.   If I were even

to want to stretch my fuel burn lower, the only way

I would do it is to fly one tank empty, and land

with 5 gallons in the remaining tank....but take this

with a grain of salt because that would violate

the FAR's...the RV-10 in cruise (low-altitude

such as going to an alternate airport) will generally

burn more than 10gph (usually 14 or so), and

that puts you below the 30 minute fuel reserve

minimums.  I myself would only use that method

in the most extreme fuel emergency, but it is

a tool to keep in your back pocket.

Hopefully by reading the above, if you weren't already

thinking of fuel minimums for yourself, you can at

least have some food for thought when you develop

your own personal fuel minimums.

Tim

On 03/28/2017 07:24 AM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   That might be good info but useless.   If you depart or land with that

 little fuel then you're obviously suicidal and in need of professional help.

 IMHO of course!!!!

 Linn

 Sent from Samsung tablet cruising on the Oasis Of The Seas.

 -------- Original message --------

 From Jim Beyer <fehdxlbb(at)gmail.com>

 Date: 03/28/2017 1:41 AM (GMT-05:00)

 To rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject Re: Unuseable Full

 How much is unusable in a takeoff/go-around attitude?  Or a cross-wind

 slip to landing?  That's the value we all should really be seeking and

 using to flight plan.

 Fly safe,

 Jim

 Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 28, 2017, at 00:23, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> I have 8 oz in one tank and 9 in the other of unusable full when tanks

 were

> drained while sitting on the ramp. Aircraft was in level cruise flight and

> tank was used in flight until fuel pressure started to drop. Switched

 tanks,

> landed and drained tank. Very small amount of unusable fuel  but makes me

> aware of the need to frequently check tanks for water/other contamination.

> Anyone else have numbers?

> Albert Gardner

> RV-10 N991RV

> Yuma, AZ

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:21 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

Just a couple points. Most single engine Cessnas have some 

recommendation against slipping with full flaps. However, I don't recall 

any that prohibited it, and certainly not slips for crosswind landing.

Second, the FAR fuel requirements for VFR and IFR are "planning" 

requirements, not a requirement to land with that much fuel. For VFR it 

is only a "planned" 30 minutes, which I guess would be about 7-8 gal.

For IFR if no alternate is required, 45 min. If alternate is needed, 

then fuel to that alternate plus 45 min.



That said, I too am very uncomfortable with less than 5 gal per tank, or 

10 gal all in one tank, and I prefer to plan for 15 gal on board at 

landing. Likewise, if it looks like I am burning more than planned by 

1/2 way distance, I will start evaluating alternates to at least get 15 

gal extra.

As a controller, I once worked a DC-8-63 that landed without enough fuel 

to even make a go around to a less suitable airport 7 miles away. They 

had an enroute alternate, passed that when destination was still above 

minimums, and then destination and nearby alternates went below 

minimums. Forced them to fly an extra 300 nm to nearest suitable 

airport, which fortunately for them was clear and 80 nm vis.

I can't imagine the pressure of being committed to a single shot at 

landing a large jet from 300 nm out, knowing that any delay, any miscalc 

and you would crash.



On 3/28/2017 6:19 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   My big worry, and the reason I really don't fly it down

 to less than 5 gallons per tank, has a few reasons:



 1) with float error and such, I don't want to count on the

 accuracy that low.


	


   It will be really the only way to help

 	  Quote: 	
		   guard against fuel un-porting in lower fuel situations,

 and there are planes like one I used to own, that

 are placarded "slips with flaps prohibited".  So I

 see this as a very necessary skill for pilots.



 Taking into consideration the above, that's how I

 came to my personal minimum of 10 gallons remaining

 for the RV-10.  In fact, I think my lowest was 10.2,

 and that only happened one time.   If I were even

 to want to stretch my fuel burn lower, the only way

 I would do it is to fly one tank empty, and land

 with 5 gallons in the remaining tank....but take this

 with a grain of salt because that would violate

 the FAR's...the RV-10 in cruise (low-altitude

 such as going to an alternate airport) will generally

 burn more than 10gph (usually 14 or so), and

 that puts you below the 30 minute fuel reserve

 minimums.  I myself would only use that method

 in the most extreme fuel emergency, but it is

 a tool to keep in your back pocket.



 Hopefully by reading the above, if you weren't already

 thinking of fuel minimums for yourself, you can at

 least have some food for thought when you develop

 your own personal fuel minimums.



 Tim

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

Yeah, my Sundowner was one of them that was "Slips with flaps

prohibited".  I was told a week or so ago that the

flight training cessna locally (M model) was no slips with

full flaps, but as you said, that may be that it was

just advice, not a real prohibition.  Still, my main point

was that I think a pilot should absolutely learn both

methods and then try to perfect the no-slip landing so

that they can avoid fuel issues easiest.  The same thing

with fuel minimums...may as well not go with the letter of the

law minimums when a prudent amount will be more.  For my

students who solo, I will tell them they must land with

10 gallons or 1 hour as an absolute minimum for solo

requirements.



The worst I ever personally saw was an airplane that

landed on a direct flight from the east coast, who

landed straight in, and as they were taxiing to the ramp,

the prop quit about 100 yards away and they rolled to the

pump....bone dry.  That was way too closet.



Tim

On 3/28/2017 10:20 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just a couple points. Most single engine Cessnas have some

 recommendation against slipping with full flaps. However, I don't recall

 any that prohibited it, and certainly not slips for crosswind landing.

 Second, the FAR fuel requirements for VFR and IFR are "planning"

 requirements, not a requirement to land with that much fuel. For VFR it

 is only a "planned" 30 minutes, which I guess would be about 7-8 gal.

 For IFR if no alternate is required, 45 min. If alternate is needed,

 then fuel to that alternate plus 45 min.



 That said, I too am very uncomfortable with less than 5 gal per tank, or

 10 gal all in one tank, and I prefer to plan for 15 gal on board at

 landing. Likewise, if it looks like I am burning more than planned by

 1/2 way distance, I will start evaluating alternates to at least get 15

 gal extra.

 As a controller, I once worked a DC-8-63 that landed without enough fuel

 to even make a go around to a less suitable airport 7 miles away. They

 had an enroute alternate, passed that when destination was still above

 minimums, and then destination and nearby alternates went below

 minimums. Forced them to fly an extra 300 nm to nearest suitable

 airport, which fortunately for them was clear and 80 nm vis.

 I can't imagine the pressure of being committed to a single shot at

 landing a large jet from 300 nm out, knowing that any delay, any miscalc

 and you would crash.

rv10pro(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

In January 1981,Portland had a DC-8 which circled multiple times during a mechanical issue until both turbines went silent. Â 11 soles were lost when the pilot made a choice to continue flight.Â  The landing was on 162nd and Stark in SE PDX.

The FAA developed Cockpit Resource Management as a result.Â  Discussions were held of the independent streak of post war fighter pilots in the decision making process..Â  CRM morphed into Crew Resourse Management which places the responsibility of the newer pilots to reach out and consult every available resource.Â  As a result the safety record continues to improve.

John

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 Just a couple points. Most single engine Cessnas have some recommendation against slipping with full flaps. However, I don't recall any that prohibited it, and certainly not slips for crosswind landing.

 Second, the FAR fuel requirements for VFR and IFR are "planning" requirements, not a requirement to land with that much fuel. For VFR it is only a "planned" 30 minutes, which I guess would be about 7-8 gal.

 For IFR if no alternate is required, 45 min. If alternate is needed, then fuel to that alternate plus 45 min.

 

 That said, I too am very uncomfortable with less than 5 gal per tank, or 10 gal all in one tank, and I prefer to plan for 15 gal on board at landing. Likewise, if it looks like I am burning more than planned by 1/2 way distance, I will start evaluating alternates to at least get 15 gal extra.

 As a controller, I once worked a DC-8-63 that landed without enough fuel to even make a go around to a less suitable airport 7 miles away. They had an enroute alternate, passed that when destination was still above minimums, and then destination and nearby alternates went below minimums. Forced them to fly an extra 300 nm to nearest suitable airport, which fortunately for them was clear and 80 nm vis.

 I can't imagine the pressure of being committed to a single shot at landing a large jet from 300 nm out, knowing that any delay, any miscalc and you would crash.

 

 On 3/28/2017 6:19 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 	
 

  	  Quote: 	
		   My big worry, and the reason I really don't fly it down

 to less than 5 gallons per tank, has a few reasons:

 

 1) with float error and such, I don't want to count on the

 accuracy that low.

 	
 

 Â  It will be really the only way to help

  	  Quote: 	
		   guard against fuel un-porting in lower fuel situations,

 and there are planes like one I used to own, that

 are placarded "slips with flaps prohibited".Â  So I

 see this as a very necessary skill for pilots.

 

 Taking into consideration the above, that's how I

 came to my personal minimum of 10 gallons remaining

 for the RV-10.Â  In fact, I think my lowest was 10.2,

 and that only happened one time.Â  Â If I were even

 to want to stretch my fuel burn lower, the only way

 I would do it is to fly one tank empty, and land

 with 5 gallons in the remaining tank....but take this

 with a grain of salt because that would violate

 the FAR's...the RV-10 in cruise (low-altitude

 such as going to an alternate airport) will generally

 burn more than 10gph (usually 14 or so), and

 that puts you below the 30 minute fuel reserve

 minimums.Â  I myself would only use that method

 in the most extreme fuel emergency, but it is

 a tool to keep in your back pocket.

 

 Hopefully by reading the above, if you weren't already

 thinking of fuel minimums for yourself, you can at

 least have some food for thought when you develop

 your own personal fuel minimums.

 

 Tim

 	
 

 ====================================

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ====================================

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 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

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 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

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 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:56 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

Not to start another discussion....but why not. I thought the no slip with full flips on some aircraft, t-tail in particular, had to do with blanking out the tail.  I know is some Cessna in my past, it had a time limit and I assume that was a fuel issue.



Rene'

801-721-6080



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

Sadly I personally haven't heard the "why" but just see the placards

or notes in the POH.  I guess they aren't expected to tell us

the details but only give us the prohibition...   I can only

assume that in some cases it's aerodynamic and other cases it's

fuel or systems related.  There are probably far better

sources than myself who could speak to the why on various

airplanes.



Tim

On 03/28/2017 10:55 AM, Rene wrote:

[quote] 



 Not to start another discussion....but why not. I thought the no slip with full flips on some aircraft, t-tail in particular, had to do with blanking out the tail.  I know is some Cessna in my past, it had a time limit and I assume that was a fuel issue.



 Rene'

 801-721-6080



 --

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

The older 172s (40 degrees of flaps), will sometimes, after prolonged slips with full flaps, unexpectedly and sharply drop the nose because of blocked airflow over the tail.Â  It's easy to recover, but it's scary.Â  The newer, 30 degree flapped 172s will not do this (I beleive this s why flaps were limited to 30 degrees), but will do some pretty odd buffeting in prolonged slips with full flaps.Â  Fuel supply is not a problem as long as you've got some fuel in both tanks and the selector on both.



On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 

 Sadly I personally haven't heard the "why" but just see the placards

 or notes in the POH.Â  I guess they aren't expected to tell us

 the details but only give us the prohibition...Â  Â I can only

 assume that in some cases it's aerodynamic and other cases it's

 fuel or systems related.Â  There are probably far better

 sources than myself who could speak to the why on various

 airplanes.

 

 Tim

 

 

 On 03/28/2017 10:55 AM, Rene wrote:

 [quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)>

 

 Not to start another discussion....but why not. I thought the no slip with full flips on some aircraft, t-tail in particular, had to do with blanking out the tail.Â  I know is some Cessna in my past, it had a time limit and I assume that was a fuel issue.

 

 Rene'

 [url=tel:801-721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]

 

 --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: Unuseable Full

Fuel supply is a problem with the older Cessnas. I don't recall when or 

if they got rid of the placard which required 1/4 tank for takeoff or go 

around. the pickup was somewhere near the middle of the tank, (fore and 

aft axis) and would unport with nose up attitude used on takeoff climb.



On 3/28/2017 9:24 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

[quote] The older 172s (40 degrees of flaps), will sometimes, after prolonged

 slips with full flaps, unexpectedly and sharply drop the nose because of

 blocked airflow over the tail.  It's easy to recover, but it's scary.

 The newer, 30 degree flapped 172s will not do this (I beleive this s why

 flaps were limited to 30 degrees), but will do some pretty odd buffeting

 in prolonged slips with full flaps.  Fuel supply is not a problem as

 long as you've got some fuel in both tanks and the selector on both.



 On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com

 <mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>> wrote:



     



     Sadly I personally haven't heard the "why" but just see the placards

     or notes in the POH.  I guess they aren't expected to tell us

     the details but only give us the prohibition...   I can only

     assume that in some cases it's aerodynamic and other cases it's

     fuel or systems related.  There are probably far better

     sources than myself who could speak to the why on various

     airplanes.



     Tim



     On 03/28/2017 10:55 AM, Rene wrote:



         

         <mailto:rene(at)felker.com>>



         Not to start another discussion....but why not. I thought the no

         slip with full flips on some aircraft, t-tail in particular, had

         to do with blanking out the tail.  I know is some Cessna in my

         past, it had a time limit and I assume that was a fuel issue.



         Rene'

         801-721-6080 <tel:801-721-6080>



         --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject: Unuseable Full

The flap change was done for certification .... has something to do with ability to climb with full flaps during a go around. 

Linn





Sent from Samsung tablet cruising on the Oasis Of The Seas.

-------- Original message --------

From "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com> 

Date: 03/28/2017  12:24 PM  (GMT-05:00) 

To rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject Re: RV10-List: Unuseable Full 

 



The older 172s (40 degrees of flaps), will sometimes, after prolonged slips with full flaps, unexpectedly and sharply drop the nose because of blocked airflow over the tail.  It's easy to recover, but it's scary.  The newer, 30 degree flapped 172s will not do this (I beleive this s why flaps were limited to 30 degrees), but will do some pretty odd buffeting in prolonged slips with full flaps.  Fuel supply is not a problem as long as you've got some fuel in both tanks and the selector on both.



On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 

 Sadly I personally haven't heard the "why" but just see the placards

 or notes in the POH.  I guess they aren't expected to tell us

 the details but only give us the prohibition...   I can only

 assume that in some cases it's aerodynamic and other cases it's

 fuel or systems related.  There are probably far better

 sources than myself who could speak to the why on various

 airplanes.

 

 Tim

 

 

 On 03/28/2017 10:55 AM, Rene wrote:

 [quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)>

 

 Not to start another discussion....but why not. I thought the no slip with full flips on some aircraft, t-tail in particular, had to do with blanking out the tail.  I know is some Cessna in my past, it had a time limit and I assume that was a fuel issue.

 

 Rene'

 [url=tel:801-721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]

 

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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Unuseable Full

 	  flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote: 	
		  The flap change was done for certification .... has something to do with ability to climb with full flaps during a go around.ï¿½

Linn

 -- 	




yes, it was done in conjunction with an increase in gross weight. There's an STC available for older 172s.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

maca2790

Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 59
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:51 pm Post subject: Unuseable Full

Well I ran my Right tank empty accidentally in purpose while in the Circuit at Bathurst, NSW Aus. When I checked how much there was left in the tank I got 120 ml out of it. But I also had the engine die on me when doing a big side slip in level flight for an extended time. The tank was indicating 17 ltrs at the time. It certainly got my attention real quick as I was only 700 ft agl at the time. Anyway from that event I made a note to myself to not go below 20 ltrs (5.2 Galls US)  on any tank while in flight. 

Cheers John MacCalum

RV10 41016

VH-DUU

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 29 Mar 2017, at 8:38 am, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote:

> The flap change was done for certification .... has something to do with ability to climb with full flaps during a go around.ï¿½

> Linn

> 

> 

> --

 yes, it was done in conjunction with an increase in gross weight. There's an STC available for older 172s.

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467767#467767

cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: Unuseable Full

I too strive to always land with at least 10 gallons, roughly an hour of cruise burn. However, if I'm going to be even close I burn most of the left tank out, not enough to go quiet, so the majority is in the right tank to minimize any chance of the fuel pickup becoming uncovered with fuel during approach and landing.  Just a technique. 

Marcus 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 28, 2017, at 8:49 PM, John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com> wrote:

 Well I ran my Right tank empty accidentally in purpose while in the Circuit at Bathurst, NSW Aus. When I checked how much there was left in the tank I got 120 ml out of it. But I also had the engine die on me when doing a big side slip in level flight for an extended time. The tank was indicating 17 ltrs at the time. It certainly got my attention real quick as I was only 700 ft agl at the time. Anyway from that event I made a note to myself to not go below 20 ltrs (5.2 Galls US)  on any tank while in flight. 

 Cheers John MacCalum

 RV10 41016

 VH-DUU

> On 29 Mar 2017, at 8:38 am, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> 

> flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote:

>> The flap change was done for certification .... has something to do with ability to climb with full flaps during a go around.ï¿½

>> Linn

>> 

>> 

>> --

> 

> 

> yes, it was done in conjunction with an increase in gross weight. There's an STC available for older 172s.

> 

> --------

> Bob Turner

> RV-10 QB

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467767#467767

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

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