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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Hello europa List members. My name is Chris Martin and new to the list (but not to homebuilt aircraft) I own a LongEZ and a Kolb Firestar II which I enjoy flying several times a week.



I am exploring the purchase of a 2nd hand Europa XS Monowheel kit. The kit is advertised a complete with essentially no work done to it. I am thinking about flying my LEZ to go see it this weekend.



I have always been attracted to the Europa. I fly gliders too so the prospect of at one point retrofitting glider wings is very attractive. The other plane I have been considering is the Zenith 650.



But the first mission for this plane would be to fly with my kids on a side by side plane and possibly teach them how to fly (I am a CFI). I also want to fly from grass which I can't do in the LEZ. How good is the Europa for these roles?



Last, if I go this weekend to see the kit, how can I check that it is complete?  I read a couple of postings that indicated the factory doesn't have a list but some members of this forums do.



Thanks for the help.

Chris Martin

Port Orange, FL USA

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:45 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Chris, Those of us who own, have built or fly Europas are quite clear that it is a brilliant aircraft with probably the sweetest in air handling characteristics of any two seat plane. Those of us who fly the mono version would not want any other type, but it is certainly not for everyone and it is most certainly not a plane to learn on, at least if that learning is going to extend to landing & T/Os. (I would say it is the perfect plane to take Young Eagles or Air Scouts for a half hour introductory flight - 99% of them will be confident, accomplished addicted pilots within 10 mins of letting them have a go!). The Europa, especially the mono version is ideal for grass strips, generally needing little more than 100 yds ground run. However the ground handling of the mono is a demanding affair. Those with glider experience and plenty of tail wheel flying mostly take to it well but the transition from a Cessna is a very different kettle of fish and many do not manage it. If you hope to train your kids to fly then you need the trigear version. This offers the same in air benefits, has simple ground handling and only suffers from being possibly 10kts slower for same power. Converting a mono to a trigear is pretty simple if done in the initial build phase. 

   Buying an abandoned kit can be an extremely economical way of getting to own a great plane. I recently bought such a kit,some 13 yrs old in he UK(to get some major parts for a repair - the rest was sold off very cheaply to various Europa builders around the world). The original builder had had a heart attack and his widow just kept the kit in a garage. All of the composite parts were as new and the large majority of the metal parts likewise. just a few metal bits needed minor surface treatment to bring them up to standard. The resin of course was well out of date, but not a major expense to replace. Checking the completeness of the kit is not a simple matter. The number of parts runs into 4 figures, if not 5!. If the main composite components are there plus a substantial pile of metal bits, you are probably OK, especially if the person selling looks trustworthy. Any odd nuts or bolts or metal components can be sourced from Europa Aircraft (who incidentally have an on line catalogue of parts - which comes close to being a complete list, but it is so long that it would take you weeks to check off the kit against it! 

    If you are seriously interested then it would be no bad thing to ask on the forum whether some Europa owner lives in your neck of the woods and would be prepared to come along with you to check out the kit. There are lots of great Europa pilots around in the States! 

    Best of luck, David Joyce 

   

 

On 2017-03-29 22:32, n7188u wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>



Hello europa List members. My name is Chris Martin and new to the list (but not to homebuilt aircraft) I own a LongEZ and a Kolb Firestar II which I enjoy flying several times a week.



I am exploring the purchase of a 2nd hand Europa XS Monowheel kit. The kit is advertised a complete with essentially no work done to it. I am thinking about flying my LEZ to go see it this weekend.



I have always been attracted to the Europa. I fly gliders too so the prospect of at one point retrofitting glider wings is very attractive. The other plane I have been considering is the Zenith 650.



But the first mission for this plane would be to fly with my kids on a side by side plane and possibly teach them how to fly (I am a CFI). I also want to fly from grass which I can't do in the LEZ. How good is the Europa for these roles?



Last, if I go this weekend to see the kit, how can I check that it is complete?  I read a couple of postings that indicated the factory doesn't have a list but some members of this forums do.



Thanks for the help.

Chris Martin

Port Orange, FL USA





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467812#467812

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

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h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Hi Chris,

If this is the Europa on Barnstormers being sold by an EAA chapter in GA, I have talked to the chapter representative and another prospective buyer about it.  Both contacted me because I am the US representative for the Europa Club.



My knowledge is mostly based on the photos in Barnstormers and some history from the chapter.  It is kit A291 which was one of the last sold in the US.  Apparently the owner assembled some of the mechanical parts but didnâ€™t do any of the composite work.  You can see the main wheel assembled in the photos.   From the photos the kit appears to be pretty complete.  But at the time it was sold, Europa was undergoing financial problems and some kits were missing significant parts.  If you are seriously interested, you should contact Bud Yerly of Custom Flight Creations in Seffner, FL to have a look with you.  Bud is the Europa expert.



The kit pictured does not include the firewall forward kit.  That was common practice at the time, builders would wait until they completed the fuselage, wings and tail before spending the money for the firewall forward.  So you will need the forward cowl, engine mount, radiators etc.  Some of these parts are available from the factory, others from builders / third party vendors.  But they are all available.  Likewise, the plex for the windscreen and doors for US kits was provided by LP Aero Plastics.  They still show it in their catalog.



The photos show a Rotax 9XX engine.  The black valve covers indicate it is a 80 hp 912.  The club rep says it was turbo charged and there are no carbs or inlet manifolds.  I would consider this as a core at best.  You should plan on purchasing an engine as well as a prop.



Your intent to fly with your kids in a side by side configuration is perfect.  We love our Europa monowheel and its performance.  With the turbo 914, we see 150 kt cruise on 5.5 gph MOGAS at 10-12K ft.  It handles beautifully and is a wonderful traveling machine.  We are based on a grass strip that it does really well on, but paved runways are no problem either.  The original mission for Europa was to go from England to the south of France with girl friend for the weekend with speed and economy while having the capability to trailer home and operate off farm fields in England.  It does that mission well.



The mono wheel ground handling is different than what most pilots are accustomed to.  I would not recommend it for initial flight training.  You may find that insurance is difficult to obtain.  There are very few qualified flight instructors and only a couple that I am aware of that have recent time in type.



It is possible to convert a mono to a tri-gear, at some weight and speed penalty.  That is the configuration that is generally recommended.  Its ground handling is similar to most tricycle gear aircraft.



The glider wings are a nice option.  There were not too many produced, around 20.  The performance is similar to a 2-33 Schweitzer.  Be aware there is a major mandatory spar modification required on these.  



You may find that purchasing a flying Europa is a less expensive proposition.  The tri-gear on Barnstormers at $46,500 is quite a good value.  If you purchase the kit for $10,000 add engine and prop, roughly $25,000, some avionics, $10,000, paint and interior, $8,000 you begin to see why a flying Europa may be less expensive. 



If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Jim Butcher

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

I've attached a spread sheet with the part numbers listed.

EUROPAPART.xls

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EUROPA PARTS1.XLS

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EUROPA PARTS1.XLS

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EUROPA PARTS.XLS

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EUROPA PARTS.XLS

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447 Time(s)

stevenwpitt(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:02 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Chris,

I would echo David's comments. As Chairman of the Europa Club I will be at SunnFun next week with Bud Yerly, who runs the US builder assistance program from Seffner, Florida, so you are very close to plenty of advise, assistance and knowledge on everything Europa.

Back to David's comments on training. The trigear is ideal as a trainer, I have flown mine off grass for many years with few issues, yes it is slower but it is all relative.

Come and meet with us and other Europa owners next week at Lakeland. We will be there all 6 days, meet and greet is usually around 11.00 each day but you are welcome any time.

Looking forward to seeing you all from Tuesday onwards.

Regards

Steve

G-SMDH Trigear 912S



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 30 Mar 2017, at 08:41, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:

 

 experience

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:05 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Chris!     

My comments also:     if your children happen start to learn to fly Europa Monowheel     first, it will be natural for them. As well as for you.

     For experienced Cessna pilot, any tail wheeler is difficult and Mono     is almost impossible w/o a patient practise and a quolified     instructor.

     

     Think about our grand fathers: they all learned to fly very     sensitive tail wheelers. Was it "difficult" ?

     

     For me - a VFR pilot - flying IMC was rather difficult before a long     practise. But my daughter, it´s natural straightforward.

     That´s because she got controls first time at the age 4-years old.     She was too short to see out, so she learned to fly by instruments     only. 

     Now, at the age 15, she is saying why to look out, we have     instruments - she is a natural IMC pilot and no matter about     horizont or ground.

     

     She took of my Mono first time from the right seat at the age of 12     and last summer she landed  my mono totally by herself to our grass     strip.

     

     I have flown with my wife since 1997 and since 2007 with my Mono.     She has flown a lot w/o a license. Until we decided she must have a     real personal

     license. It was very easy for her. After 30 hrs with Eurostar trike     in the flying school, we purchased her a tail wheeled bush plane.     She was capable direct to that,

     because of a Mono experience.

     

     I try to say, that if you have happend to learn to cyckle a three     wheeler, it´s quite difficult to change and learn to cykle a normal     two wheeler bi-cyckle.

     But if you start with a bi-cyckle, like we all normally do,  it´s     natural, easy and you will never forget that skill.

     

     ***

     I do not know how old are your children? Anyway - beware they will     be a lot older when your possible Mono is flyable (if you have to     build it first)!

     

     I would like to recommend you: buy any tail wheeler and fly it with     your children. Meanwhile build your Mono very quickly - transition     will be then smoother.

     

     Or - what´s your best very best option - buy instantly a flyable     Mono and same time build your dream one!   

     

     You will have at least double fun!

                     

           Cheers, Raimo Toivio                  

Europa               XS Mono OH-XRT #417 2007               

               LamcoCub M SE-VAY 2004               

               Bravo AS202T OH-NTM 1995               

               Antonov AN-2 TDSRM AirCamper HA-MDO 1987               

               Beechcraft C45 Twin OH-BLL 1953                  37500 Lempaala

           FINLAND

           

           p +358-3-3753 777           

           m +358-40-590 1450           

           

           FLYING BREWERY

           - only beer in the world brewed             to aircraft standards 

               by pilots to pilots and also to normal people           

         

           raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)

         www.flyingbreweryfinland.fi

       www.rwm.fi       

     

     30.3.2017, 17:01, Steven Pitt       kirjoitti:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Steven Pitt <stevenwpitt(at)me.com> (stevenwpitt(at)me.com)



Chris,

I would echo David's comments. As Chairman of the Europa Club I will be at SunnFun next week with Bud Yerly, who runs the US builder assistance program from Seffner, Florida, so you are very close to plenty of advise, assistance and knowledge on everything Europa.

Back to David's comments on training. The trigear is ideal as a trainer, I have flown mine off grass for many years with few issues, yes it is slower but it is all relative.

Come and meet with us and other Europa owners next week at Lakeland. We will be there all 6 days, meet and greet is usually around 11.00 each day but you are welcome any time.

Looking forward to seeing you all from Tuesday onwards.

Regards

Steve

G-SMDH Trigear 912S



Sent from my iPad



          	  Quote: 	
		  On 30 Mar 2017, at 08:41, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:



experience

Martymason

Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 20
Location: Norcross, GA

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

I purchased this kit in 2004. Some of you know the problems I had due to the bankruptcy of Europa Aircraft, In fact I had to purchase the wings from Europa 2004 along with the firewall forward kit. The kit is complete and there are many extra purchases including the reinforced tailplane tube.  A crushed left elbow and mangled left hand in 2007 prevented me from completing the kit. After several years I donated it to EAA chapter 690 in hopes that young people could complete it. Unfortunately they have decided to sell it along with the used  Rotax 912 I also donated. 



You can contact me by e-mail or phone at 770-448-6469.  



Marty Mason

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Thanks for all the helpful replies.



I already contacted Bud and will be meeting him either Friday or Saturday. I am looking forward to that meeting. 



I am personally not too concerned about the monowheel (being an experienced glider pilot and currently owning and flying a tailwheel airplane). But teaching the kids may be a problem. Probably OK in the initial phases but solo could take a while in coming (I'm a CFI so I can spend a lot of time teaching them  I will consider the triwheel retrofit if I end up getting a monowheel airplane.



And I will make sure I seek the Europa owners in SnF. I will be coming in my LongEZ. Hard to miss since generally there are not too many 



Regards,

Chris

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Or maybe I need to read a little more about Mono vs tri gear. After reviewing a post describing some experiences with mono wheel in crosswind maybe I need to just consider conversion from the beginning!



It's just that the mono wheel is soooo cool!



Chris

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Chris,



FWIW my XS began its life as a Mono, made its first flight in 2001 and was then converted into a Trigear and made its first flight as such in 2004 - no idea why 



Anyway - welcome to the community 



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 388
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Chris,



With the Europa mono-wheel it's not a case of "if" but when you're going to suffer a ground-loop. This is much more likely on tar than on grass. I learned to fly in the military and have almost 300 hours total in the Harvard/AT6. Because they have differential brakes, crosswinds aren't much of a problem.



Later in life I built my Europa as a mono and flew it like that for over 600 hours, sharing the joys of such a wonderful aircraft with a couple of friends. One of them was the country's senior gliding instructor examiner at the time, plus having experience of other tail-wheel aircraft. After flying my Europa for more than 10 years and while landing on our tar runway, he suffered a ground-loop in light crosswind conditions. He couldn't account for this and my guess is that there might have been a slight moment of inattention.



Perhaps the main difference between the mono Europa and gliders is the much shorter wings with far less inertia than gliders. I would describe the Europa mono as "squirrelly" by comparison. You have to react instantaneously to any yaw deviations, especially during landings.



Another one of my friends also suffered a ground-loop in almost nil wind conditions maybe for the same reason, so I eventually decided to get rid of my anxiety each time friends took charge of the Europa and converted to tricycle configuration. This conversion is very much more difficult after the aircraft has already been built as a mono.



In my experience the loss of speed in the cruise after the conversion was less than 5 knots, but there was an increase in empty weight of around 40 lbs.

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Thanks to all again for the informative replies. 



Well, there is doubt in my mind that the mono is challenging and the conversion to tri is to be seriously considered. This discussion reminds me of what you read regarding the landings in the U2 aircraft 



Anyway, maybe the Europa mono is a little more challenging in crosswinds than a glider simply because you can't drop a wing while riding on the main. But obviously there are limits to crosswinds you can handle even in gliders.



BTW, I do fly from asphalt and crosswinds can be common but high winds are only common in this time of the year. 



Can't wait to go to SnF next week and meet some of the Europa flyers!



Chris

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a spinny thing 

on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop strikes are also

common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on 

the brake might just rock you forward!  Fortunately (if one can say 

that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop and 

Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.

_________________
Ira N224XS

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:17 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Hi Ira



"Prop strikes on Mono's are common". What makes you say that ? 



In the UK there is no noticeable difference between aircraft insurance premiums for tri gear and mono, which tells you something  .



Sure if you brake hard while turning you can upset things but the accident rate is very similar for both types.



I have had my 912 mono classic flying for 15 years now and yes I broke a prop ( only once) but as I attempted to land rounding out about ten feet too high I blame the pilot (me) not the configuration , indeed in a similar situation a tri gear would not only have damaged the prop but also the nosewheel. 



Better pilots than me have described the mono as no more difficult to operate than a piper cub, Having only been a passenger in a cub I cannot give an opinion on that.



The mono is a tail wheel aeroplane and behaves like one, 



regards



Tim



G-BZTH





 	  Quote: 	
		  

On 01 April 2017 at 17:30 rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>



To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a spinny thing 

on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop strikes are also

common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on 

the brake might just rock you forward! Fortunately (if one can say 

that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop and 

Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467914#467914



	


>

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Hi Ira

          

I agree totally with Tim.Â  In fact in the last 15 years since my       mono has been flying I have never noticed any tendency to tip the       nose down on braking regardless of the G of G. 

          

You just need soft hands on the ailerons to keep the wings       level.Â  If you over control and push the outrigger into the       surface then it affects theÂ  C of G, unloads the tail wheel and a       ground loop is waiting to happen.     

Having owned a share in a Cub I think the mono is neither harder       nor easier just different. 

          

Pete     

G-RMAC #109

          

     On 01/04/17 18:15, houlihan tim wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                

Hi Ira

              

"Prop strikes on Mono's are common". What makes you say that ?         

              

In the UK thereÂ is no noticeable difference between aircraft         insurance premiums for tri gear and mono, which tells you         something Â .

              

Sure if you brake hard while turning you can upset things but         the accident rate is very similar for both types.

              

I have had my 912 mono classic flying for 15 years now and yes         I broke a prop ( only once) but as I attempted to land rounding         out about ten feet too high I blame the pilot (me) not the         configuration , indeed in a similar situation a tri gear would         not only have damaged the prop but also the nosewheel. 

              

Better pilots than me have described the mono as no more         difficult to operate than a piper cub, Having only been a         passenger in a cub I cannot give anÂ opinion on that.

              

The mono is a tail wheel aeroplane and behaves like one, 

              

regards

              

Tim

              

G-BZTH

              



              



               	  Quote: 	
		           

On 01 April 2017 at 17:30 rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)           wrote:

           

           

           --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil"           <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)

           

           To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a           spinny thing 

           on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop           strikes are also

           common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on           

           the brake might just rock you forward! Fortunately (if one can           say 

           that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop           and 

           Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.

           

           --------

           Ira N224XS

           

           

           

           

           Read this topic online here:

           

           http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467914#467914

           

                  	
       

 	  Quote:

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Fwiw, I had the generous opportunity to fly with Tim in his fine Mono a few years back, and didn't notice any strange handling issues - in fact he showed me two landings to prove it   I did't get the impression it was any busier than a normal taildragger either.  Thanks again Tim!  I had the same observations on my other three mono demo flights. For sure it would have different techniques with the outriggers than a 'normal' taildragger, but nothing  that couldn't be easily learned. Up here in canada, the young air cadets train on gliders without disaster. I for sure will build mine as a mono, as the mono's attributes are what attracted me to the plane in the first place, and the entire structure is based on the compact and efficient design. For sure it is less busy on the ground than my short coupled and inadequate tailed hummelbird 

That said, the tri "gold rush" that is for sale would be the most economical way to get into a europa (the current north american resale values for europas has plummeted, simply due to their sparse numbers, and fickle NA flyers preference to match hole sonex's and RV's).

So far i have not yet flown another type that is so beautifully harmonized, stable and yet responsive. DD did his homework well! I still love this design this 19 years after i first did my research.

Cheers and blue skies,

Pete

C-IPWZ (not a europa 



On Apr 1, 2017, at 1:54 PM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                     

Hi Ira

          

I agree totally with Tim.  In fact in the last 15 years since my       mono has been flying I have never noticed any tendency to tip the       nose down on braking regardless of the G of G. 

          

You just need soft hands on the ailerons to keep the wings       level.  If you over control and push the outrigger into the       surface then it affects the  C of G, unloads the tail wheel and a       ground loop is waiting to happen.     

Having owned a share in a Cub I think the mono is neither harder       nor easier just different. 

          

Pete     

G-RMAC #109

          

     On 01/04/17 18:15, houlihan tim wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                

Hi Ira

              

"Prop strikes on Mono's are common". What makes you say that ?         

              

In the UK there is no noticeable difference between aircraft         insurance premiums for tri gear and mono, which tells you         something  .

              

Sure if you brake hard while turning you can upset things but         the accident rate is very similar for both types.

              

I have had my 912 mono classic flying for 15 years now and yes         I broke a prop ( only once) but as I attempted to land rounding         out about ten feet too high I blame the pilot (me) not the         configuration , indeed in a similar situation a tri gear would         not only have damaged the prop but also the nosewheel. 

              

Better pilots than me have described the mono as no more         difficult to operate than a piper cub, Having only been a         passenger in a cub I cannot give an opinion on that.

              

The mono is a tail wheel aeroplane and behaves like one, 

              

regards

              

Tim

              

G-BZTH

              



              



               	  Quote: 	
		           

On 01 April 2017 at 17:30 rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)           wrote:

           

           

           --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil"           <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)

           

           To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a           spinny thing 

           on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop           strikes are also

           common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on           

           the brake might just rock you forward! Fortunately (if one can           say 

           that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop           and 

           Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.

           

           --------

           Ira N224XS

           

           

           

           

           Read this topic online here:

           

           http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467914#467914

           

                  	
       

 	  Quote:

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

I have seen a prop strike or two and heard of more.  In the US, they 

are not officially reportable events, so the actual incidence and

prevalence are difficult to ascertain. Having some hours in a J3, and a 

few landings in the factory demonstrator at KLAL, I believe there is

quite a substantial difference in tolerance for landing technique. I have 

also seen a B75 driven by a 28,000 hour pilot flip inverted (and I am one

of the guys fixing it, just ask Bud ). 



Perhaps, it's just the perspective of a 1000 hour pilot rather than a 

10,000 hour CFI, but I think there are better choices for a primary trainer.

_________________
Ira N224XS

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:57 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

The Mono vs Trigear debate could go on for ever and there is no clear winner.Â  Here is my take on it for what it is worth.

 

I built my Europa as a Mono.Â  Prior to flying it I had about 15 hours tailwheel experience in a J3 Cub.Â  I would describe myself as only an average pilot who has work to stay sharp and current. I received expert conversion training and then flew some 20 hours of the most challenging and enjoyable kind.Â  I then got too confident and tried to land on tarmac with a 90 degree 5-10 knot crosswind.Â  It got away from me but the runway was 45 metres wide so no real drama.Â  Just as the aircraft was coming to a stop at 90 degrees to the runway heading and with the wind now up my tail I touched the brakes and it tipped on its nose .Â  The cost was three new Airmaster blades and an overhauled hub.Â  It was my fault, not the aircraft.Â  The lesson I learned was- you can never relax with a Mono- you must always keep on top of it.Â  Once you get below a certain speed if you are still out of shape you become a passenger because you have no differential braking to save the day.

 

I considered my situation and decided the Mono was great fun but I wanted to do some European touring and felt I would enjoy it more with a Trigear so I converted.Â  With the speed kit fitted it is probably 5 knots slower but I donâ€™t notice that.Â  Once in the air I cannot tell the difference between the two configurations.Â  I have never regretted my decision to convert but if asked I would always advise someone building a Mono to go for it and enjoy the challenge.Â  Yes, conversion is much harder than going Tri during the build Â but handling a Mono is one of those flying experiences that should not be missed.

 

Brian Davies G-DDBD

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete

Sent: 01 April 2017 23:08

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

 

Fwiw, I had the generous opportunity to fly with Tim in his fine Mono a few years back, and didn't notice any strange handling issues - in fact he showed me two landings to prove it   I did't get the impression it was any busier than a normal taildragger either.  Thanks again Tim!  I had the same observations on my other three mono demo flights. For sure it would have different techniques with the outriggers than a 'normal' taildragger, but nothing  that couldn't be easily learned. Up here in canada, the young air cadets train on gliders without disaster. I for sure will build mine as a mono, as the mono's attributes are what attracted me to the plane in the first place, and the entire structure is based on the compact and efficient design. For sure it is less busy on the ground than my short coupled and inadequate tailed hummelbird 



 



That said, the tri "gold rush" that is for sale would be the most economical way to get into a europa (the current north american resale values for europas has plummeted, simply due to their sparse numbers, and fickle NA flyers preference to match hole sonex's and RV's).



 



So far i have not yet flown another type that is so beautifully harmonized, stable and yet responsive. DD did his homework well! I still love this design this 19 years after i first did my research.



 



Cheers and blue skies,



Pete



C-IPWZ (not a europa 

On Apr 1, 2017, at 1:54 PM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Ira

I agree totally with Tim.  In fact in the last 15 years since my mono has been flying I have never noticed any tendency to tip the nose down on braking regardless of the G of G. 

You just need soft hands on the ailerons to keep the wings level.  If you over control and push the outrigger into the surface then it affects the  C of G, unloads the tail wheel and a ground loop is waiting to happen.

Having owned a share in a Cub I think the mono is neither harder nor easier just different. 

Pete

G-RMAC #109

 

On 01/04/17 18:15, houlihan tim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Ira

"Prop strikes on Mono's are common". What makes you say that ? 

In the UK there is no noticeable difference between aircraft insurance premiums for tri gear and mono, which tells you something  .

Sure if you brake hard while turning you can upset things but the accident rate is very similar for both types.

I have had my 912 mono classic flying for 15 years now and yes I broke a prop ( only once) but as I attempted to land rounding out about ten feet too high I blame the pilot (me) not the configuration , indeed in a similar situation a tri gear would not only have damaged the prop but also the nosewheel. 

Better pilots than me have described the mono as no more difficult to operate than a piper cub, Having only been a passenger in a cub I cannot give an opinion on that.

The mono is a tail wheel aeroplane and behaves like one, 

regards

Tim

G-BZTH

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

On 01 April 2017 at 17:30 rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com) wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)



To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a spinny thing 

on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop strikes are also

common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on 

the brake might just rock you forward! Fortunately (if one can say 

that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop and 

Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467914#467914





	


 	  Quote: 	
		   	


 
	


	


No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 04/01/17

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:17 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Interesting example....thx for sharing. Did the tail rise because of downwind full aft stick? Im confused why you were pointing downwind and not weather-cocked into the wind ( which i would have thought would have ben the planes natural tendency)?

Cheers and thx,

Pete



On Apr 2, 2017, at 4:56 AM, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

The Mono vs Trigear debate could go on for ever and there is no clear winner.  Here is my take on it for what it is worth.

 

I built my Europa as a Mono.  Prior to flying it I had about 15 hours tailwheel experience in a J3 Cub.  I would describe myself as only an average pilot who has work to stay sharp and current. I received expert conversion training and then flew some 20 hours of the most challenging and enjoyable kind.  I then got too confident and tried to land on tarmac with a 90 degree 5-10 knot crosswind.  It got away from me but the runway was 45 metres wide so no real drama.  Just as the aircraft was coming to a stop at 90 degrees to the runway heading and with the wind now up my tail I touched the brakes and it tipped on its nose .  The cost was three new Airmaster blades and an overhauled hub.  It was my fault, not the aircraft.  The lesson I learned was- you can never relax with a Mono- you must always keep on top of it.  Once you get below a certain speed if you are still out of shape you become a passenger because you have no differential braking to save the day.

 

I considered my situation and decided the Mono was great fun but I wanted to do some European touring and felt I would enjoy it more with a Trigear so I converted.  With the speed kit fitted it is probably 5 knots slower but I donâ€™t notice that.  Once in the air I cannot tell the difference between the two configurations.  I have never regretted my decision to convert but if asked I would always advise someone building a Mono to go for it and enjoy the challenge.  Yes, conversion is much harder than going Tri during the build  but handling a Mono is one of those flying experiences that should not be missed.

 

Brian Davies G-DDBD

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pete

Sent: 01 April 2017 23:08

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

 

Fwiw, I had the generous opportunity to fly with Tim in his fine Mono a few years back, and didn't notice any strange handling issues - in fact he showed me two landings to prove it   I did't get the impression it was any busier than a normal taildragger either.  Thanks again Tim!  I had the same observations on my other three mono demo flights. For sure it would have different techniques with the outriggers than a 'normal' taildragger, but nothing  that couldn't be easily learned. Up here in canada, the young air cadets train on gliders without disaster. I for sure will build mine as a mono, as the mono's attributes are what attracted me to the plane in the first place, and the entire structure is based on the compact and efficient design. For sure it is less busy on the ground than my short coupled and inadequate tailed hummelbird 



 



That said, the tri "gold rush" that is for sale would be the most economical way to get into a europa (the current north american resale values for europas has plummeted, simply due to their sparse numbers, and fickle NA flyers preference to match hole sonex's and RV's).



 



So far i have not yet flown another type that is so beautifully harmonized, stable and yet responsive. DD did his homework well! I still love this design this 19 years after i first did my research.



 



Cheers and blue skies,



Pete



C-IPWZ (not a europa 

On Apr 1, 2017, at 1:54 PM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Ira

I agree totally with Tim.  In fact in the last 15 years since my mono has been flying I have never noticed any tendency to tip the nose down on braking regardless of the G of G. 

You just need soft hands on the ailerons to keep the wings level.  If you over control and push the outrigger into the surface then it affects the  C of G, unloads the tail wheel and a ground loop is waiting to happen.

Having owned a share in a Cub I think the mono is neither harder nor easier just different. 

Pete

G-RMAC #109

 

On 01/04/17 18:15, houlihan tim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Ira

"Prop strikes on Mono's are common". What makes you say that ? 

In the UK there is no noticeable difference between aircraft insurance premiums for tri gear and mono, which tells you something  .

Sure if you brake hard while turning you can upset things but the accident rate is very similar for both types.

I have had my 912 mono classic flying for 15 years now and yes I broke a prop ( only once) but as I attempted to land rounding out about ten feet too high I blame the pilot (me) not the configuration , indeed in a similar situation a tri gear would not only have damaged the prop but also the nosewheel. 

Better pilots than me have described the mono as no more difficult to operate than a piper cub, Having only been a passenger in a cub I cannot give an opinion on that.

The mono is a tail wheel aeroplane and behaves like one, 

regards

Tim

G-BZTH

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

On 01 April 2017 at 17:30 rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com) wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)



To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a spinny thing 

on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop strikes are also

common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on 

the brake might just rock you forward! Fortunately (if one can say 

that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop and 

Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467914#467914





	


 	  Quote: 	
		   	


 
	


	


No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 04/01/17

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:05 am Post subject: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

Yes, the natural tendency started the event but I was late correcting and then over controlled and ended up pointing in the other direction. Not sure why the tail lifted but probably the combination of a tail wind and brakes.

 

Brian

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete

Sent: 02 April 2017 14:16

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

 

Interesting example....thx for sharing. Did the tail rise because of downwind full aft stick? Im confused why you were pointing downwind and not weather-cocked into the wind ( which i would have thought would have ben the planes natural tendency)?



 



Cheers and thx,



Pete

On Apr 2, 2017, at 4:56 AM, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The Mono vs Trigear debate could go on for ever and there is no clear winner.  Here is my take on it for what it is worth.

 

I built my Europa as a Mono.  Prior to flying it I had about 15 hours tailwheel experience in a J3 Cub.  I would describe myself as only an average pilot who has work to stay sharp and current. I received expert conversion training and then flew some 20 hours of the most challenging and enjoyable kind.  I then got too confident and tried to land on tarmac with a 90 degree 5-10 knot crosswind.  It got away from me but the runway was 45 metres wide so no real drama.  Just as the aircraft was coming to a stop at 90 degrees to the runway heading and with the wind now up my tail I touched the brakes and it tipped on its nose .  The cost was three new Airmaster blades and an overhauled hub.  It was my fault, not the aircraft.  The lesson I learned was- you can never relax with a Mono- you must always keep on top of it.  Once you get below a certain speed if you are still out of shape you become a passenger because you have no differential braking to save the day.

 

I considered my situation and decided the Mono was great fun but I wanted to do some European touring and felt I would enjoy it more with a Trigear so I converted.  With the speed kit fitted it is probably 5 knots slower but I donâ€™t notice that.  Once in the air I cannot tell the difference between the two configurations.  I have never regretted my decision to convert but if asked I would always advise someone building a Mono to go for it and enjoy the challenge.  Yes, conversion is much harder than going Tri during the build  but handling a Mono is one of those flying experiences that should not be missed.

 

Brian Davies G-DDBD

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pete

Sent: 01 April 2017 23:08

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Considering the purchase of a 2nd hand kit

 

Fwiw, I had the generous opportunity to fly with Tim in his fine Mono a few years back, and didn't notice any strange handling issues - in fact he showed me two landings to prove it   I did't get the impression it was any busier than a normal taildragger either.  Thanks again Tim!  I had the same observations on my other three mono demo flights. For sure it would have different techniques with the outriggers than a 'normal' taildragger, but nothing  that couldn't be easily learned. Up here in canada, the young air cadets train on gliders without disaster. I for sure will build mine as a mono, as the mono's attributes are what attracted me to the plane in the first place, and the entire structure is based on the compact and efficient design. For sure it is less busy on the ground than my short coupled and inadequate tailed hummelbird 



 



That said, the tri "gold rush" that is for sale would be the most economical way to get into a europa (the current north american resale values for europas has plummeted, simply due to their sparse numbers, and fickle NA flyers preference to match hole sonex's and RV's).



 



So far i have not yet flown another type that is so beautifully harmonized, stable and yet responsive. DD did his homework well! I still love this design this 19 years after i first did my research.



 



Cheers and blue skies,



Pete



C-IPWZ (not a europa 

On Apr 1, 2017, at 1:54 PM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Ira

I agree totally with Tim.  In fact in the last 15 years since my mono has been flying I have never noticed any tendency to tip the nose down on braking regardless of the G of G. 

You just need soft hands on the ailerons to keep the wings level.  If you over control and push the outrigger into the surface then it affects the  C of G, unloads the tail wheel and a ground loop is waiting to happen.

Having owned a share in a Cub I think the mono is neither harder nor easier just different. 

Pete

G-RMAC #109

 

On 01/04/17 18:15, houlihan tim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hi Ira

"Prop strikes on Mono's are common". What makes you say that ? 

In the UK there is no noticeable difference between aircraft insurance premiums for tri gear and mono, which tells you something  .

Sure if you brake hard while turning you can upset things but the accident rate is very similar for both types.

I have had my 912 mono classic flying for 15 years now and yes I broke a prop ( only once) but as I attempted to land rounding out about ten feet too high I blame the pilot (me) not the configuration , indeed in a similar situation a tri gear would not only have damaged the prop but also the nosewheel. 

Better pilots than me have described the mono as no more difficult to operate than a piper cub, Having only been a passenger in a cub I cannot give an opinion on that.

The mono is a tail wheel aeroplane and behaves like one, 

regards

Tim

G-BZTH

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

On 01 April 2017 at 17:30 rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com) wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)



To further your consideration, the mono wheel also has a spinny thing 

on the front end which is absent from most gliders. Prop strikes are also

common with monowheels. Depending on you CG loading, a tap on 

the brake might just rock you forward! Fortunately (if one can say 

that in this context), the combination of carbon fiber prop and 

Rotax gear box usually prevents expensive engine damage.



--------

Ira N224XS





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467914#467914







	


 	  Quote: 	
		   	


 
	


	


No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 04/01/17

	


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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 04/02/17

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