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Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

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genie(at)swissmail.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:41 pm Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

I have an Avid Flyer which originally had a STOLwing. Its wings have 

been shortened to make it a Speedwing, as I would like to travel to 

places. Does anyone know what effects that would have on the aircraft's 

handling and tendency to groundloop? My Flyer has once suffered from a 

groundloop, I was told. Thank you.



George Nielsen



Avid Flyer I-6640



The Hague, the Netherlands

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but I 

might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster roll 

rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in the air 

and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, which is good 

and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions are required on 

your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the square of the 

touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a gust to catch you or 

other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings also offer less lift on 

the ground and less opportunity for wind to push you around. Shorter 

wings mean you can land in more crosswind, which is good. (More deck 

angle plus higher landing speeds.)



I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them just 

the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone to manage.



Guy Buchanan

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs

Glider pilot, too

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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

genie(at)swissmail.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:10 pm Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

Thank you for your reply. I find it useful. I have not spoken to anyone 

who has flown both types.



What kind of gliders do you fly?



George



On 19-Apr-17 17:18, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but 

 I might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster 

 roll rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in 

 the air and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, which 

 is good and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions are 

 required on your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the square 

 of the touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a gust to 

 catch you or other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings also offer 

 less lift on the ground and less opportunity for wind to push you 

 around. Shorter wings mean you can land in more crosswind, which is 

 good. (More deck angle plus higher landing speeds.)



 I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them just 

 the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone to manage.



 Guy Buchanan

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs

 Glider pilot, too

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michaelgibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:20 pm Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

I don't know how the Avid Speed- and STOL wings compare to the Kitfox airfoil but I have about 15 hours in long-wing Kitfoxes and 67 hours with clipped ("Speedster") wings. Guy's analysis is basically correct although on the low-end there is very little difference in performance. The factory's stall speed figures are the same for both and any difference in approach and landing speeds is hard to even notice. The short wings provide a noticeably quicker roll rate (the factory claims 130 degrees/second) and a bit more speed in cruise.

All other things being equal, I prefer the handling qualities of the short wing and plan to clip the wings on my Series 7 Kitfox while it is down for its annual inspection this month.

Mike G.

Kitfox Series 7

Phoenix, AZ

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 19, 2017, at 11:10 PM, George Nielsen <genie(at)swissmail.org> wrote:

 Thank you for your reply. I find it useful. I have not spoken to anyone who has flown both types.

 What kind of gliders do you fly?

 George

> On 19-Apr-17 17:18, Guy Buchanan wrote:

> 

> 

> Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but I might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster roll rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in the air and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, which is good and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions are required on your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the square of the touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a gust to catch you or other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings also offer less lift on the ground and less opportunity for wind to push you around. Shorter wings mean you can land in more crosswind, which is good. (More deck angle plus higher landing speeds.)

> 

> I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them just the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone to manage.

> 

> Guy Buchanan

> Ramona, CA

> Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs

> Glider pilot, too

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

Mostly the rentals here at Warner, Grob 102s and 103s, though I have 

some time in Duo's and Discus' at Omarama and Minden. I haven't 

purchased one yet, but would love to have an ASW-20 with winglets.



Guy Buchanan

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs

Glider pilot, too



On 4/19/2017 11:10 PM, George Nielsen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thank you for your reply. I find it useful. I have not spoken to 

 anyone who has flown both types.



 What kind of gliders do you fly?



 George



 On 19-Apr-17 17:18, Guy Buchanan wrote:

> 

>

> Don't know if you'll get an answer from someone who's flown both, but 

> I might help you with a physics answer. Shorter wings means faster 

> roll rate which is good. Faster roll rate means more control, both in 

> the air and on the ground. Shorter wings also mean higher speed, 

> which is good and bad. Higher landing speed means faster reactions 

> are required on your part, plus a much longer roll-out (goes as the 

> square of the touchdown speed) which means more opportunity for a 

> gust to catch you or other "adverse stimuli". However shorter wings 

> also offer less lift on the ground and less opportunity for wind to 

> push you around. Shorter wings mean you can land in more crosswind, 

> which is good. (More deck angle plus higher landing speeds.)

>

> I know of many Kitfoxes with short wings and the owners love them 

> just the same. I suspect the differences are small enough to anyone 

> to manage.

>

> Guy Buchanan

> Ramona, CA

> Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 600 hrs

> Glider pilot, too

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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

nightmare

Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 427

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

Hey George, i used to give tailwheel instruction and Beech18 training, dont know about the difference between the two in groundlooping tendancy but will say that regaurdless of aircraft, as long as you are lazer focused on keeping that plane straight and not let it get started in having the ass end come around, there is no reason for a groundoop. Ive personally found that other than rudder use initially that quick brake stabs will keep you going in a straight line. Wheel landings will give more positive control too. Then get those toes dancing when that tail wheel touches the ground.

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_________________
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive

genie(at)swissmail.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Avid Flyer Speedwing and STOLwing

Paul, thank you very much for your reply and your advice. I reckon that 

I will have to resist the temptation of countering every turn to one 

side with full rudder and instead just give quick rudder stabs. Do I 

also have to give wheel brake stabs?



George



On 23-Apr-17 3:01, nightmare wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey George, i used to give tailwheel instruction and Beech18 training, dont know about the difference between the two in groundlooping tendancy but will say that regaurdless of aircraft, as long as you are lazer focused on keeping that plane straight and not let it get started in having the ass end come around, there is no reason for a groundoop. Ive personally found that other than rudder use initially that quick brake stabs will keep you going in a straight line. Wheel landings will give more positive control too. Then get those toes dancing when that tail wheel touches the ground.



 --------

 Paul Donahue

 Started 8-3-12

 do not archive





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