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Prop Problems
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vernon.franklin(at)gmail.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
I started the engine for the first time today Smile
Everything was in the green, and looked really good.  But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good.  Everything from the outside looks like it should work.  Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough.  See picture.

[img]cid:ii_15b9881cd1bbd634[/img]

Anyone ever experience this?
--
Vernon Franklin

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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:10 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
I can't answer about the spacer. It should be easy enough to tell if the splines are meshing. But I can tell you it make take a short bit of running time before there's enough oil in the hub for the prop to cycle. You didn't mention how long you ran it for but maybe you just didn't wait long enough?
Tim

Quote:
On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I started the engine for the first time today Smile

Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.

I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.

I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue. I just don't know the first place to start looking.

The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.

<image.png>

Anyone ever experience this?

--
Vernon Franklin


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gengrumpy



Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 131
Location: Tullahoma, TN
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Tim is correct, it takes several minutes of running for the oil to make its way up to the governor.

When I pulled my prop for IRAN last year, it took 3-4 minutes of run time to get enough oil back up there to move the blades.

grumpy

do not archive

Quote:
On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:10 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:



I can't answer about the spacer. It should be easy enough to tell if the splines are meshing. But I can tell you it make take a short bit of running time before there's enough oil in the hub for the prop to cycle. You didn't mention how long you ran it for but maybe you just didn't wait long enough?
Tim

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I started the engine for the first time today Smile
>
> Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
>
> I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
>
> I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue. I just don't know the first place to start looking.
>
> The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.
>
> <image.png>
>
> Anyone ever experience this?
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin







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vernon.franklin(at)gmail.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
It was probably between 3 and 5 minute. How long should it take? 
Vernon 
On Apr 22, 2017 9:13 PM, "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

I can't answer about the spacer.  It should be easy enough to tell if the splines are meshing.  But I can tell you it make take a short bit of running time before there's enough oil in the hub for the prop to cycle.  You didn't mention how long you ran it for but maybe you just didn't wait long enough?
Tim

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> I started the engine for the first time today Smile
>
> Everything was in the green, and looked really good.  But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
>
> I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good.  Everything from the outside looks like it should work.  Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
>
> I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
>
> The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough.  See picture.
>
> <image.png>
>
> Anyone ever experience this?
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin


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civengpe



Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Vernon,Have you considered having an a&p looking over you engine Install prior to first flight.?


On Apr 22, 2017 9:53 PM, "Vernon Franklin" <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
It was probably between 3 and 5 minute. How long should it take? 
Vernon 
On Apr 22, 2017 9:13 PM, "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

I can't answer about the spacer.  It should be easy enough to tell if the splines are meshing.  But I can tell you it make take a short bit of running time before there's enough oil in the hub for the prop to cycle.  You didn't mention how long you ran it for but maybe you just didn't wait long enough?
Tim

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> I started the engine for the first time today Smile
>
> Everything was in the green, and looked really good.  But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
>
> I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good.  Everything from the outside looks like it should work.  Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
>
> I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
>
> The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough.  See picture.
>
> <image.png>
>
> Anyone ever experience this?
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
I'm not exactly sure but it would probably depend on the RPM also. If you weren't up to maybe 1800 rpm or so I don't know that you'd get enough pressure to get the oil flowing and make it work. I just know that when I did my IO-390 start last year it did take a bit of time.
Tim

On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:49 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
It was probably between 3 and 5 minute. How long should it take?
Vernon
On Apr 22, 2017 9:13 PM, "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

I can't answer about the spacer. It should be easy enough to tell if the splines are meshing. But I can tell you it make take a short bit of running time before there's enough oil in the hub for the prop to cycle.  You didn't mention how long you ran it for but maybe you just didn't wait long enough?
Tim

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> I started the engine for the first time today Smile
>
> Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
>
> I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
>
> I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
>
> The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.
>
> <image.png>
>
> Anyone ever experience this?
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin


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bhoppe2



Joined: 09 Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Location: Nolensville, TN
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Vernon,

I had a similar problem with my Hartzell prop. I checked all the same items, talked to 2 A&P's, and finally called Hartzell. They immediately told me what was wrong.

At what speed were you running the engine when you tried to cycle the prop? I was used to doing a 1800 rpm run up and cycling the prop. That will not work. You need to be at least 2000 rpm.

Bruce Hoppe

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I started the engine for the first time today Smile

Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.

I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.

I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue. I just don't know the first place to start looking.

The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.

<image.png>

Anyone ever experience this?

--
Vernon Franklin


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Yup. Had two of them out there with me today. We were all stumped. 

Vernon 
On Apr 22, 2017 10:00 PM, "Shannon Hicks" <civeng123(at)gmail.com (civeng123(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Vernon,Have you considered having an a&p looking over you engine Install prior to first flight.?


On Apr 22, 2017 9:53 PM, "Vernon Franklin" <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
It was probably between 3 and 5 minute. How long should it take? 
Vernon 
On Apr 22, 2017 9:13 PM, "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

I can't answer about the spacer.  It should be easy enough to tell if the splines are meshing.  But I can tell you it make take a short bit of running time before there's enough oil in the hub for the prop to cycle.  You didn't mention how long you ran it for but maybe you just didn't wait long enough?
Tim

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> I started the engine for the first time today Smile
>
> Everything was in the green, and looked really good.  But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
>
> I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good.  Everything from the outside looks like it should work.  Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
>
> I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
>
> The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough.  See picture.
>
> <image.png>
>
> Anyone ever experience this?
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Agree with others. You need to be at over 1700 rpm, prop control pulled back, for up to 45 seconds or so, to get enough oil in there.

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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
This is a common question I hear. Get it to at least 1800rpm, 2000 is better, then pull the prop control and leave it out. It can take 30-60 seconds to get a reaction in the prop the first time.

Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I started the engine for the first time today Smile

Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.

I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.

I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue. I just don't know the first place to start looking.

The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.

<image.png>

Anyone ever experience this?

--
Vernon Franklin


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bhoppe2



Joined: 09 Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Location: Nolensville, TN
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
As I mentioned last night, the governor supplied by Vans with the Hartzell prop needs at least 2000 rpm to control the prop. That is what Hartzell told me and is absolutely true. 1700 rpm does not work, 1800 rpm will not work. You must be over 2000 rpm, which seems high, but your prop will cycle.

Bruce Hoppe

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Apr 23, 2017, at 6:52 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:



This is a common question I hear. Get it to at least 1800rpm, 2000 is better, then pull the prop control and leave it out. It can take 30-60 seconds to get a reaction in the prop the first time.

Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I started the engine for the first time today Smile
>
> Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
>
> I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
>
> I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue. I just don't know the first place to start looking.
>
> The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.
>
> <image.png>
>
> Anyone ever experience this?
>
> --
> Vernon Franklin







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Strasnuts



Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Prop Problems Reply with quote
One more thing to check.

Have two of you try to change the pitch with your hands manually. This is easily accomplished with two people. Make sure the prop moves full range to the stops. If you can't move it or it is really hard there might be hydraulic lock in the prop due to a bad seal during construction. This happened to me. Usually it's something simple but make sure. In my case it was a prop overhaul and the oring was nicked. The prop cycled at first and then slowly went to a fixed pitch prop in flight. It was bad because it wanted to over rev the engine and I had to limp back to the airport. Luckily, I was close and didn't have to add more power. Just a thought. Usually it is something more simple but an easy check with two people.

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rvdave



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Prop Problems Reply with quote
I may be wrong but you said you pulled a plug from the crankshaft, did you mean it had been set up for fp prop before?

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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2878
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
If it's a new engine, it will just come that way.
Tim

Quote:
On Apr 23, 2017, at 11:53 AM, rvdave <rv610dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I may be wrong but you said you pulled a plug from the crankshaft, did you mean it had been set up for fp prop before?

--------
Dave Ford
RV6 for sale
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI




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rvdave



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Quote:
If it's a new engine, it will just come that way.
Tim


Do you mean set up for fp or with a plug in the end?

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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop Problems Reply with quote
rvdave wrote:
Quote:
If it's a new engine, it will just come that way.
Tim


Do you mean set up for fp or with a plug in the end?


Mine was all set up for CS except that there was a plug an inch or so from the forward end of the crankshaft. There are various ways to pull it.

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rvdave



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Mine came with a plug in the rear but only a plastic cap in the front which I removed.
I know to change a crank from cs to fp which I did on our 6 was to pierce the plug in the rear and add a plug to the front, that's why I was wondering.



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  All of you were correct, it came down to RPM.  Alex DeDominicis dropped by earlier as I was outside trying to get things to work.  I told him the situation and ran it up with him outside. He said there was no way the engine was running at 2000 RPM, so he proceeded to jump in and pushed the throttle up beyond were I had gone yet.  At around 3800 RPM... The prop finally engaged.  After nearly having a heart attack, he said that was closer to 1900 to 2000 RPM.  So it seems my Dynon EMS is doubling the RPM for some reason, need to do some more research.  

Prop problem solved, on to the next one!
Thanks for the input, you guys nailed it.
Vernon
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I started the engine for the first time today Smile
Everything was in the green, and looked really good.  But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good.  Everything from the outside looks like it should work.  Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough.  See picture.

[img]cid:ii_15b9881cd1bbd634[/img]

Anyone ever experience this?
--
Vernon Franklin




--
Vernon Franklin

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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
If you go into settings, then to calibration (bottom option on the main settings list), then to EMS Calibration, then to RPM, change the pulses per revolution. Depending on your ignition system, there will be different pulses per revolution. If it's reading double, then double your pulses per revolution and that should fix it. Easy peasy.

Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 23, 2017, at 7:52 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. All of you were correct, it came down to RPM. Alex DeDominicis dropped by earlier as I was outside trying to get things to work. I told him the situation and ran it up with him outside. He said there was no way the engine was running at 2000 RPM, so he proceeded to jump in and pushed the throttle up beyond were I had gone yet. At around 3800 RPM... The prop finally engaged. After nearly having a heart attack, he said that was closer to 1900 to 2000 RPM. So it seems my Dynon EMS is doubling the RPM for some reason, need to do some more research.

Prop problem solved, on to the next one!
Thanks for the input, you guys nailed it.
Vernon
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I started the engine for the first time today Smile
Everything was in the green, and looked really good. But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good. Everything from the outside looks like it should work. Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue. I just don't know the first place to start looking.
The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough. See picture.

[img]cid:ii_15b9881cd1bbd634[/img]

Anyone ever experience this?
--
Vernon Franklin




--
Vernon Franklin





- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List


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john(at)trollingers.com
Guest
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Prop Problems Reply with quote
How are you getting RPM, a sensor on the mag?

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:08 PM Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  All of you were correct, it came down to RPM.  Alex DeDominicis dropped by earlier as I was outside trying to get things to work.  I told him the situation and ran it up with him outside. He said there was no way the engine was running at 2000 RPM, so he proceeded to jump in and pushed the throttle up beyond were I had gone yet.  At around 3800 RPM... The prop finally engaged.  After nearly having a heart attack, he said that was closer to 1900 to 2000 RPM.  So it seems my Dynon EMS is doubling the RPM for some reason, need to do some more research.  

Prop problem solved, on to the next one!
Thanks for the input, you guys nailed it.
Vernon
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I started the engine for the first time today Smile
Everything was in the green, and looked really good.  But when I went to test the prop, it would not cycle.
I have a hartzell gov, and the arm swing is good.  Everything from the outside looks like it should work.  Everything is stock from Van's FWF or Lycoming.
I definitely pulled the plug on the crank case, that isn't the issue.  I just don't know the first place to start looking.
The only thing I can see from the outside, is this spacer between the governor and the engine, maybe the teeth on the gear cannot reach far enough.  See picture.

[img]cid:ii_15b9881cd1bbd634[/img]

Anyone ever experience this?
--
Vernon Franklin





--
Vernon Franklin




- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List


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