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fuel mix

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Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: fuel mix

At 09:48 PM 7/12/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello group,

    Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) synthetic 2 cycle oil mix 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it?

      Thanks    Jim Swan 

  

 

 Jim Swan in Michigan

 will soon have a Kolb FS 	


   >I guess I can tell you my/our story.  When I decarbed the heads and

  >the top of the good pistons & the piston ring slots, I discovered that the

  >carbon was rock hard.  I have decarb engines before and since but this material was

  >more fused that just plain carbon build up.  I got to checking my oil.  I

  >had bought a case of Amsoil in late 1998



  Nothing personal, and nothing personal against you, but I've/we've been flying

  these things since 1983 and "Amsoil" sucks, it cost us Cuyuas'  in the 80's 

  and I think it will cost you Rotax's in the 90's-2001.

  From the archives - do not archive

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: fuel mix

At 01:11 AM 7/13/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  At 09:48 PM 7/12/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello group,

    Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) synthetic 2 cycle oil mix 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it?

      Thanks    Jim Swan 	


The 503 (Dual Carb)is a rock, it is a stone, it is the pinnacle of the

two stroke. 



[/b] 	
The single carb has to be massaged - just a little.



  	  Quote: 	
		  I've flown a 447 with points - on a KXP for at least 400

hours before 



this one - they are/were finicky little engines,



they want everything to be just right. But...when everything is 



right, they are hard to beat  - you know what I mean.



I've got 698 hours now without a decarb - really. 1999 Engine 503 



E-gear box (Going for the record "800 hours")



No carbon yet. Compression still 120 per cylinder - (like new) "outa

the box" Still checking with the dental mirrors and intake and

exhaust manifolds off (flashlight down the plug holes) every 50  or

so hours. Gotta repaint my muffler once in a while anyway - wish I'd got

it chromed when it was new..



Just a test guys - so don't flame me.



Don't try this at home.



I'm at the Ferguson Farm & I'm JUST the test pilot for "this

one" anyway.



Never had the jugs off - never had the engine even hick up.



And I know that's not what the book says.(Where no man has gone before -

800 hr on a 503 CDI  no decarb).



We who are about to die - salute you.



[/b] 	
BUT - GUYS! I GOT A BRAND NEW 65 HP "-----" AIR COOLED ENGINE.

 SITTING IN THE BOX - JUST WAITING FOR ME TO TEST FLY or 

 BREAK IT. WEIGHT = 92 LBS. - 13 EXTRA HP! 

 JUST GOTTA BREAK THIS ONE FIRST!

 I KNOW I CAN DO IT - 

 ANY SUGGESTIONS FROM THE PEANUT GALLEY?

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: Re: fuel mix

Jim,



Probly not a good idea with Rotax two stroke engines.  The amsoil leaves a sticky gunky black deposit which tends to cause the rings to get sticky, resulting in high cylinder head temperatures.



You can't go wrong with California Power System's AV2 oil or Pensoil Two Stroke Oil for Air-Cooled Engine.  There are a number of other good two stroke oils out there that people swear by.  The subject is kind of like politics or religion!



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello group, 

?? Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) synthetic 2 cycle oil mix 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it? 

???? Thanks??? Jim Swan 

? 



Jim Swan in Michigan 

will soon have a Kolb FS

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: fuel mix

Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most

comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax

2-stroke engines.  (He's written articles about the

topic.)  Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the

topic.  My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of

the 100-1 oils.  He reminded us that oil has two

purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1

formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling

end.



His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran

them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said

that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke

Rotax.  It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3

formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor

oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the

gas tank before switching.  I think if you contact

Lockwood Aviation (1-800-LA-ROTAX) they'll send you a

copy of the article.



Penzoil air-cooled is hard to find - so when I go on

long cross-country flights, I switch to Penzoil

outboard; since it's compatible with all other TC-W3

oils,  you can use ANY TC-W3 oil if you're out in the

sticks and can't find Penzoil outboard motor oil.



As someone else on this list responded, oil selection

is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.



Arty



--- Arksey(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello group,

    Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) 

 synthetic 2 cycle oil mix 

 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with  it?

      Thanks    Jim Swan 

  

 

 Jim Swan in Michigan

 will soon have a Kolb  FS

 


	




www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

blackbird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: fuel mix

I think the article you are referring to was in a magazine with 2 strokes 

mounted on a trailer.....12 years in ultralights and I have always used the 

Penzoil air cooled even with a water cooled engine...

The article also showed the inside components after a certain number of 

hours ....

It was great...

Wayne McCullough

---

_________________
Wish I lived in the American REPUBLIC!!!

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: fuel mix

I feel the same way about what it says in the book I am flying the 447 with 359 hours and no problems and the key word ( yet ) and a new engine on the shelve also, but I dont want to put it on untill its time or when someone buys it then I will sell it with a new engine and keep the old engine for my next Firestar project thats on its way ,I have heard of others on the list running a two stroker alot longer than what the book says and as long as it keeps working great I plan on running it untill the vitals start running low on the inspections 

 

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: fuel mix

I tried to resist.......Auuuggghhhh!!!! Couldn't do it.....



First....



This is not an advertisement for 100:1 oils



Second.....



 	  Quote: 	
		   As someone else on this list responded, oil selection

 is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.


	


Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing 

and objective investigation. The other two.....



 	  Quote: 	
		   Phile Lockwood of Lockwood Aviation has done the most

 comprehensive testing I'm aware of re: oils for Rotax

 2-stroke engines.  (He's written articles about the

 topic.)  Two years ago at Arlington, he spoke on the

 topic.  My notes show that he said NOT to use ANY of

 the 100-1 oils.  He reminded us that oil has two

 purposes - lubricating and cooling, and the 100-1

 formulations don't do an adequate job on the cooling

 end.


	


A quote from an article that referenced these tests...



http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm

____________________________________

Four different oils were chosen for the test. The oils 

tested were: 

1) Pennzoil" Two-Cycle Air-Cooled Engine Oil; 

2) Pennzoil' Premium Out- board and Multi-purpose Two 

Cycle Oil; 

3) A conventional petroleum two-cycle oil; and 

4) A two-cycle synthetic oil.

______________________________



How does one arrive at the position that 100:1 ratios, 

using oils formulated for 100:1 operation, will not cool 

adequately if none are tested?



Further on in the article....

______________________________

It is worthy to note that many pilots using synthetic oil 

may mix at a higher (leaner) fuel/oil ratio than the 

engine manufacturer may specify. Synthetic oils tend to 

work well against deposit formation at these higher 

ratios, however engine manufacturers generally state 

that the higher (leaner) oil ratio may not provide 

enough residual protection from corrosion during 

extended storage conditions. Therefore, all oils run in 

this test were run at the manufacturer's recommended 

fuel/oil ratio of 50: 1. 

_________________________________



Here is the possible start point for extrapolating 

inadequate cooling from higher oil ratios when 50:1 oils 

are used at higher ratios. False analogy, non sequiter, 

and appeal to authority are not bases for scientific 

proof. 



This is what Pennzoil (Shell) claims in their Technical 

Info letter P-15-A as the rationale for their air cooled 

oils (the bold is my highlighting).....

________________________________________

Air cooled two-cycle engines are often idle or operate at 

low output between bursts of high output

use. The idle time and infrequent high output use results 

in lower average piston temperatures than

outboard engines. This results in less oil thinning in air 

cooled engines.



The continued variations in speeds and the physical 

punishment that these engines experience play a

key role in breaking off ash deposits that are formed by 

detergent additives in two-cycle oils.

Consequently, detergent additives used in two-cycle oils do 

not harm air cooled two-cycle engines.

Since air cooled engines have extensive idle and low 

output operating time and lower average piston

temperatures, they do not always completely burn the 

heavier oil that may be present in two-cycle oils.

This partially burned heavy oil causes carbon buildup in 

exhaust ports and the exhaust system.

Buildup of these deposits causes loss of power.



________________________________________



Does this sound like your air-cooled two stroke engine? 

Lots of idle time? Extensive low output time? Infrequent 

high-output time? 



Moving on......

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   His research (he put 5 or 6 Rotaxes on a stand and ran

 them for hundreds of hours with different oils) said

 that Penzoil air-cooled was the best oil in a 2-stroke

 Rotax.


	


"Best" is a relative term when one only tests four oils. As for TC-

W3 certification....



__________________________________________



TC-W3® lubricant, an NMMA owned trademark, has 

evolved over the years through much testing and research, 

and has proven to be the level of quality to satisfy the above 

objectives. And, going a step further, now that two cycle 

engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures 

and compressions, this lubricant also meets the EPA 

emissions reductions. 

TC-W3® has demonstrated the necessary lubrication 

performance quality needed for these more demanding 

cylinder/engine conditions. 

NMMA licenses those two cycle lubricants that meet the 

stringent performance tests conducted by a sanctioned 

laboratory approved by NMMA to conduct the tests. 

__________________________________________



This is the list of TC-W3 certified oils......



http://tinyurl.com/ko6dq



 	  Quote: 	
		    It is NOT compatible with any of the TC-W3

 formulations (not even with Penzoil's outboard motor

 oil, which is TC-W3) and he recommended draining the

 gas tank before switching.


	


Based on the following from Pennzoil....



_______________________________



Pennzoil has three oils for two-cycle engines, Premium 

Outboard And Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM, 

Advanced-Performance Snowmobile Oil and 2-Cycle Air 

Cooled Engine Oil, each specifically designed for different 

applications. Care should be taken to avoid mixing the 

various two-cycle oils together, especially when converting 

a customer from one product to the other product. 

Pennzoil® Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose Two-Cycle 

Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced- Performance Snowmobile Oil 

contain ashless dispersant additives, whereas Pennzoil® 2-

Cycle Air Cooled Engine Oil contains a low-ash detergent 

additive. 

As a general rule, ash-containing two-cycle oils should not 

be mixed with ashless two-cycle oils, as their additives may 

be incompatible with each other. This would apply not only 

to Pennzoil's two-cycle products, but to all two-cycle oils on 

the market. Since Pennzoil® Premium Outboard And Multi-

Purpose Two-Cycle Oil TC-W3TM and Advanced-

Performance Snowmobile Oil are ashless formulations, 

mixing of these products with an ash-containing product 

should be avoided. 



_______________________________________________



Arty is correct on this point. I can only take Pennzoil's 

admonition at face value.

Those of us using 50:1 oils that do not have a Pennzoil label 

and those of us using 100:1 oils recognize how thin the 

argument is that any one oil is best. Interesting to note that 

Lockwood doesn't specify which two stroke oil they sell on 

their WEB site. If Air Cooled oil were best for air cooled 

engines, why not carry both?

Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

eagle1(at)commspeed.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: fuel mix

For what it's worth (2 cents?) I have used Pennzoil air cooled oil in all my 

Rotex 247 and 503's for approx. 700 hrs and have never  had a stuck ring nor 

cleaned the carbon.

    Az Bald Eagle

---

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: fuel mix

Hello group,

    I want to thank everyone for their input of my  question, which was if anyone was using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP)  SYNTHETIC 2 CYCLE oil at 100-1 mix in a rotax 503 ...There is a wealth of  experence and knowledge in this group.  Possum's you sure have put some  time in the air, hope to meet you some day, and Arty I have read some of your  accounts  of your cross country flights and I found them very  enjoyable...what got me interested in our type of aircraft was a flight I took  in a 2 place Drifter in Sebring Fl with Jeff Hudson a couple of years ago. The  Drifter had Lotus floats and wheels and what a wonderful flight it was, I could  not get over the visibilty and that is why I decided to look for that type of  aircraft and decided on a Kolb firestar. I spend the winters at Sebring and have  met Phil Lockwood and have great respect for his judgement and  knowledge... Thanks again to all...Jim Swan

  

 

Jim Swan in Michigan

will soon have a Kolb  FS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: fuel mix

oil selection

 	  Quote: 	
		   is as contentious a topic as religion or politics.


	


Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing 

and objective investigation. >>



Not at all like religion then!!!!



Cheers



Pat



do not archive

--

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: fuel mix

--- Jim Baker <jlbaker(at)msbit.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jlbaker(at)msbit.net>

 

 I tried to resist.......Auuuggghhhh!!!! Couldn't do

 it.....

 


	




Jim -



I'm GLAD you couldn't resist - your information was

very informative.  This is one of the reasons why I'm

on the Kolb list, even though I fly a Drifter!  (The

other is that I met so many neat people at the MV Kolb

fly-in, and every time I see their posts on this list,

it's like being with them again.)



So thanks for the research.



Arty



www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: fuel mix

Some of us would disagree. But that would require a different list.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Pastor, Blountville Community Chapel



pat ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   <snip>

 Oil performance is quantifiable when exposed to rigorous testing and 

 objective investigation. >>



 Not at all like religion then!!!!



 Cheers



 Pat



 do not archive

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: fuel mix

We were running CPS's AV2 in two planes with 447's.  It worked fine 

but cost $$$, CPS couldn't seem to ship it with a reasonable lead 

time.  It didn't produce a lot of carbon but the deposits were hard 

and hard to clean off.  Switched over to Pennzoil, been running that 

for some time.  Carbons a little more but easier to clean off.  Just 

pulled the exhaust off, the pistons and rings looked good, little 

build up on the edges of the manifold.  So far I am happy with 

Pennzoil (aircooled) plus I can buy it locally by the case at a 

reasonable price.

jerb

At 04:21 AM 7/13/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Jim,

Probly not a good idea with Rotax two stroke engines.  The amsoil 

leaves a sticky gunky black deposit which tends to cause the rings 

to get sticky, resulting in high cylinder head temperatures.

You can't go wrong with California Power System's AV2 oil or Pensoil 

Two Stroke Oil for Air-Cooled Engine.  There are a number of other 

good two stroke oils out there that people swear by.  The subject is 

kind of like politics or religion!

 > Hello group,

 > ?? Is anyone using Amsoil Saber Professional (ATP) synthetic 2 

 cycle oil mix 100 to 1 in a 503 Rotax or had experence with it?

 > ???? Thanks??? Jim Swan

 > ?

 >

 > Jim Swan in Michigan

 > will soon have a Kolb FS

--------

Dave Bigelow

Kamuela, Hawaii

FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI

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