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Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?
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jay-dub

Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 99
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

It's all happening...



Just prior to shutdown (luckily), the hose from the engine to the oil cooler let go just aft of the firewall but before the cockpit, resulting in hot oil spraying out and now seeping from just about every panel and flooding the right side of the cockpit. No injuries fortunately.



We can replace the hose easily enough but the issue is the connectors. The existing ones don't appear to be reusable - unless someone here knows different.



Are they standard AN connectors? I expect not but if so, no dramas. If not, what are they and where can I get them please?

_________________
CJ owner

pilotdog57(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

When some of mine were changed we used a pipe wrench with the hose firmly clamped into a vice. It marked them up a little but they were reusable. 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 30, 2017, at 2:44 PM, jay-dub <flyjnw(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 It's all happening...

 

 Just prior to shutdown (luckily), the hose from the engine to the oil cooler let go just aft of the firewall but before the cockpit, resulting in hot oil spraying out and now seeping from just about every panel and flooding the right side of the cockpit. No injuries fortunately.

 

 We can replace the hose easily enough but the issue is the connectors. The existing ones don't appear to be reusable - unless someone here knows different.

 

 Are they standard AN connectors? If so, no dramas. If not, what are they and where can I get them please?

 

 --------

 CJ and Yak-52 owner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471357#471357

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

They are definitely not AN fittings!  They are metric.  Remove the hose and find a hose fabrication shop that will remove the ends off the hose and reuse the metric nuts or give Cliff Coy a call at Border Air in Swanton, VT.  Cliff can remake the hose using your hose ends and metric hose.  802-868-2822.

Dennis

       From: jay-dub <flyjnw(at)gmail.com>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 4:45 PM

 Subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay-dub" <flyjnw(at)gmail.com (flyjnw(at)gmail.com)>

It's all happening...

Just prior to shutdown (luckily), the hose from the engine to the oil cooler let go just aft of the firewall but before the cockpit, resulting in hot oil spraying out and now seeping from just about every panel and flooding the right side of the cockpit. No injuries fortunately.

We can replace the hose easily enough but the issue is the connectors. The existing ones don't appear to be reusable - unless someone here knows different.

Are they standard AN connectors? If so, no dramas. If not, what are they and where can I get them please?

--------

CJ and Yak-52 owner

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471357#471357

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listp;        - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:56 pm Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

That is a very disturbing report.  Such a failure in flight could be 

catastrophic.  These are old to very old aircraft, some in the order of 50 + 

years and the oil cooler hoses are very difficult to replace or even 

inspect.

The oil out hose is probably the most critical one in the aircraft due to 

high temperature and the fact that scavenge pump pressure is unregulated. 

Were this a certificated aircraft there would likely be an AWD on the 

subject.



Jay-dub could you provide some pics and description of the failure when you 

get a chance?



Condolences and Thanks;

Walt

--

Harv

Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Sorry to hear!



This is exactly why we have a 3 year periodic hose pressure test, of course that only goes so far though I've never heard of this happening before so is fortunately extremely rare.



I do have spare main lines and some old fittings (from when i replaced my hoses with new ones) if you need something to use until your's are removed from the a/c



Harv

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

We have spent a lot of time on this issue of flexible hoses. The first

problem came when the Russians would only sell huge quantities of hose and

very unreliable deliveries. However we realised that we could not fit good

quality Western hose – we decided that Aeroquip 404 was the best – onto the

Russian metal fittings reliably. Of course you can do what seems an adequate

job, but when subject to excessive pressure and heat we found that the ends

would leak or possibly worse.



We spent a lot of time researching the issue, and have now developed a

system to modify the Russian metal ends to take Aeroquip 404 hose, and, for

that matter, repetitively in the future. Very importantly we have the

authorisation to give EASA "form1" documentation for these hoses – the

highest European document aviation quality, and with a 10 year life.

Richard Goode

Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

 Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

+94 779 132 160.



--

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

After reading and re-reading your description of replacing hose end fittings 

I felt a reply was really necessary.



"We used a pipe wrench with the hose firmly clamped into a vise" is a 

perfect example of how to not to do this job.



This process pretty much guarantees a permanently (maybe fatally) damaged 

hose structure and a fitting now subject to corrosion and fatigue cracking 

due to pipe wrench damage.



Walt



--

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Hi Richard:



Are you referring specifically here to the engine oil system hoses? Or the 

aircraft hoses in general?  If the latter I would most certainly agree.



Referring here to Chinese rather than Russian I have found that the oil 

hoses and end fittings are virtually dimensionally identical and appear 

functionally interchangeable with MIL H 8794 -12 Med. Press. hose (Aeroquip 

303-12 or Stratoflex 111-12).



Conversion of all other hose sizes on the CJ6 are highly questionable at 

best.



Cheers;

Walt

--

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Guys,I have current manufacture date oil hose assemblies in stock. Â 

Was the failure actually a fitting failure or a hose failure?

Was it a stock assembly or was it a "shop made" hose?

Making hoses is akin to playing with fire unless you know what you are doing and have the right tools (proper mandrels, not pipe wrenches).Â  Unless you fully understand the process and know how to correctly check for proper dept of hose inside the collar, "flappers" and other gotchas, you'd best leave the job to someone more experienced, personally I am not willing to accept the liability so I do not make or sell re-manufactured hoses. Â 

Doug

  	          		Virus-free. www.avast.com 		 	 [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]



On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:10 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  They are definitely not AN fittings!Â  They are metric.Â  Remove the hose and find a hose fabrication shop that will remove the ends off the hose and reuse the metric nuts or give Cliff Coy a call at Border Air in Swanton, VT.Â  Cliff can remake the hose using your hose ends and metric hose.Â  [url=tel:(802)%20868-2822]802-868-2822[/url].

Dennis



       From: jay-dub <flyjnw(at)gmail.com (flyjnw(at)gmail.com)>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2017 4:45 PM

 Subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

  

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "jay-dub" <flyjnw(at)gmail.com (flyjnw(at)gmail.com)>



It's all happening...



Just prior to shutdown (luckily), the hose from the engine to the oil cooler let go just aft of the firewall but before the cockpit, resulting in hot oil spraying out and now seeping from just about every panel and flooding the right side of the cockpit. No injuries fortunately.



We can replace the hose easily enough but the issue is the connectors. The existing ones don't appear to be reusable - unless someone here knows different.



Are they standard AN connectors? If so, no dramas. If not, what are they and where can I get them please?



--------



CJ and Yak-52 owner



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471357#471357





http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listp; Â  Â  Â   - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -



http://forums.matronics.comnbsp; Â  Â  Â  - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

http://www.matronics.com/contribution====================

jay-dub

Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 99
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Here is a photo of the failure, after some cleaning. The failure was actually a split in the upper braided hose about 1/2 inch from the connector. It would appear it is not the standard hose. The hose has now been removed.

image1.JPG

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_________________
CJ owner

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Hello Walt,



I know nothing about the Chinese hoses, but I find it difficult to think that they are going to be significantly different to the Russian. The cautionary point of my posting was that the Russian metal ends will not make a perfect seal with Western hose, such as Aeroquip 404 unless they are modified. You can seem to get a seal, but it is not strong, and I certainly would not want to fly with such a join!



Richard Goode



Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

 Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

Iâ€™m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.



--

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Jay-dub;



That is an AN standard,  Aeroquip #491 fitting assy. on what looks like an 

Aeroquip 303 hose but I do not recognize the location as "just aft of the 

firewall" in a CJ6.

There should be no oil hose connection in that immediate area at all.  Can 

you confirm this is the lower RH firewall area of a CJ6.



The MIL H 8794 (303) hose has a layer of steel wire braid below the outer 

fabric cover.   The failure you have suffered is almost inconceivable 

without pre-existing external damage.



Also do not recognize the two small dia. (Chinese or Russian) hose 

connectors below the large (-12) hose as a CJ6 assembly.   The upper small 

dia. hose is similar to an Aeroquip 600 series (probably a Russell 

knock-off) and is not compatible with the Chinese/Russian end fitting.



Walt



From: jay-dub

Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 2:16 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?






Here is a photo of the failure, after some cleaning. The failure was 

actually a split in the braided hose about 1/2 inch from the connector. It 

would appear it is not the standard hose. The hose has now been removed.



--------

CJ and Yak-52 owner





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471388#471388





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jay-dub

Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 99
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Thanks, Walt. 



The removed external panel is just aft of the firewall on the lower right side of the forward fuselage. I'm interested in your comments above as we have no immediate means of comparison. If I get chance, I will ask to open the same panel on one of the other two Huosai powered CJs in the UK to see.



For the avoidance of doubt, the hose which failed is the middle one of the three in the picture - the silver coloured one.

_________________
CJ owner

Robin Hou

Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 15
Location: El Monte, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Jay-Dub, do you oil hoses pass through the firewall with fittings?



On my 85 CJ-6 both oil hoses run through the firewall via grommets without fittings. My oil hose is Chinese so I assume they are original since 1990's when it was exported to the U.S.



I have considered adding fittings as firewall pass through when I replace the oil hose. However, the firewall is only aluminum so any benefit of the fittings may not be realized in case of fire.

jay-dub

Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 99
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

They go through the firewall with grommets.

_________________
CJ owner

Harv

Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

So the pic is you posted is taken looking through the STB side fuselage access panel which makes more sense.



I'm with my aircraft tonight so will take a picture for you.



The only possibly explanation I can think right now is someone has done a very nasty modification with the engine oil feed line to the cooler buy adding a fitting and running two smaller hoses (possibly for ease of replacement??) rather than obtain a new  Chinese hose.



It has certainly doubled the failure mode (as you have found out) and I'm quite surprised whoever maintains your AC hasn't insisted this was removed (that's just my 2pence worth) in the normal course of performing the 3 year periodical hose pressure test   but that assumes they "know" these aircraft.

Harv

Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Oil hoses running through the firewall, the fitting you see connects to the excellent Craig Payne oil filter bypass system

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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:18 pm Post subject: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

Jay-dub;



Attaching a photo taken inside the RH lower, forward, fuselage panel 

(approx. 5" X 7") just aft of the firewall and above the floor.   The LH 

side has an identical panel in the same location.  The two oil hoses you see 

(though new a few years ago) are exactly as original.  They are approx. 6 

ft. long and join the oil cooler hoses in the area of an access panel under 

the RH fwd. wing LE/fuselage fairing.

All you see in the photo is stock, with the exception of my 24/12 voltage 

converter at the bottom.  In the upper LH corner is the fuel pressure 

transmitters the hose connector for which attaches on the fwd. side of the 

firewall.

In the lower RH corner of the photo there is a heavy metal section which is 

the inboard side of the RH lower longeron.  This is a wide, "U" shaped 

structure (one of four) which carries the major fuselage  loads.



In viewing your photo the longeron is also visible (full of oil) but is 

located in the LH lower corner of the image.  If the photo as taken aft to 

fwd as the firewall image appears to suggest I am really confused.



Mine is a 1965 version and at least to the late 1970's this area is 

unchanged.  Maybe not true of later models?



Cheers;

Walt



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jay-dub

Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 99
Location: UK

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

 	  Harv wrote: 	
		  So the pic is you posted is taken looking through the STB side fuselage access panel which makes more sense.



I'm with my aircraft tonight so will take a picture for you.



The only possibly explanation I can think right now is someone has done a very nasty modification with the engine oil feed line to the cooler buy adding a fitting and running two smaller hoses (possibly for ease of replacement??) rather than obtain a new  Chinese hose.



It has certainly doubled the failure mode (as you have found out) and I'm quite surprised whoever maintains your AC hasn't insisted this was removed (that's just my 2pence worth) in the normal course of performing the 3 year periodical hose pressure test   but that assumes they "know" these aircraft. 	




As you know, there's not a great deal of CJ experience in Europe. I'm very keen to have it torn apart totally and a ground up IRAN rebuild but not sure whether that's viable ultimately. As to converting it back to the correct specification, not even sure I'd know where to start....



Edit: Just noticed the picture I posted has rotated itself through 90 degrees, which probably explains the confusion.

_________________
CJ owner

Last edited by jay-dub on Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total

jay-dub

Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 99
Location: UK

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Blown oil hose CJ - connectors?

The other thing which is a little different, which slipped my mind entirely, is that we have an engine pre-oil system. Potentially the mysterious hoses are something to do with that...

_________________
CJ owner

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