Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

EFIS Comparisons
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

brinker(at)cox-internet.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

$1100 is for the EIS only for a 6cyl  but I plan to install a dual EFIS 

which interfaces to the EIS

        I think if you wanted a dedicated graphic display it would be a 

little over $3000

---

skywagon(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

...be sure to review and compare the JPI engine monitor if you have not 

made a decision yet.

D



---

bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Good Morning Jerry,

 

They are available, but I am not aware of any good source. If I find one , I will let you know.

 

Happy Skies,

 

Old Bob

Do Not Archive

 

--

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Comment below..



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bob,



snip
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As far as meeting the requirement of being able to fly a T&B, most IFR

 pilots could do this when licensed but never practice this task again.

 You tell me how good you would be 10 years down the road without

 spending more then the 5 minutes or so work with the T&B on your BFR in

 great weather.  Unless youre the one pilot in general aviation that does

 go out every 90 days and maintains proficiency at this task.  I think

 your hiding behind the lack of data showing that pilots do not practice

 what they do not like or are not very good at.  I'm just being realistic

 about the data I have collected about real world proficiency.



 Mike




	


Given the chances that you will have a vacuum pump failure, I propose that

it's good policy to perform the majority of your proficiency work with the

AI covered.  And, fly more than one "no gyro" approach each time you go

out (DG and AI covered).  They aren't really that hard.  In fact, when you

ask for that from ATC, they are generally very accomodating (in a radar

environment anyway).  They give you the "start turn, stop turn

instructions" and the only hard part is intercepting the final approach

course.  It helps if you practice keeping the ball centered in all

maneuvers.  And I don't think flying the "no gyro" procedure reduces your

effectiveness at full-panel ops.  I suppose the hardest thing partial

panel is doing a precise holding pattern without the DG - especially on a

windy/bumpy day.  Break out the handheld GPS to give you course

information - makes it almost too easy.

Matt-

riggs_la(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Try Aircraft Spruce:

  http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/in/turnbankindicators.html

  

Do not archive.

  

bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote:  



Good Morning Jerry,

 

They are available, but I am not aware of any good source. If I find one , I will let you know.

 

Happy Skies,

 

Old Bob

Do Not Archive

 

--

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

bobsv35b(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Good Morning Brian,

  

 You ask: "Why don't you put in a second AI? Seems to me that would serve you

 better than a second T&SI."

  

 Many reasons. 

  

 I would need to repeat long treatises on why I prefer the T&B over the TC along with thoughts on how MY mind works.  


	


I do not disagree with you over your choice of T&SI vs. TC.



 	  Quote: 	
		   What works for me may not work for others.

  

 On top of that, the T&B is lighter, cheaper and, in my opinion, more reliable.


	


That is true.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Incidentally, I have never disassembled either a T&B or a TC, but my local instrument guru tells me that the TC has one more fulcrum point to transfer the data from the canted gyro to the instrument face.  


	


Ah, yes. There is a linkage there but it is pretty darned simple. It is

not likely to be a source of failure. The motor is a much, much higher

probability of failure.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thus a slightly higher parts count and an ever so slightly higher chance of failure.


	


You are splitting hairs here.



 	  Quote: 	
		   There is no doubt that, with proper training, either a TC or a T&B can be used successfully for partial panel flight and as a device for recovery from an unusual attitude.


	


So can an attitude gyro that is non-tumbling in both pitch and roll.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On top of that, neither instrument will tumble as will some attitude gyros. 


	


But in order to be used as a replacement for a T&SI or a TC the AI must

be non-tumbling. If it has stops on the gimbals it may not be used to

replace the turn instrument. There are a number of non-tumbling AIs out

there. Sporty's has a nice one for $1600. It also has an inclinometer

(ball).



 	  Quote: 	
		   My love for the T&B is based on it being so much different in appearance from the TC or attitude gyro and the fact that it will show only yaw where the TC shows both roll and yaw.


	


I know. And it is easier to learn to fly partial-panel with a TC as you

get feedback as soon as you start to roll the airplane, long before the

T&SI starts to show a turn. Still I like that the T&SI is less "twitchy"

in turbulence.



But if the main AI packs it in it is one heck of a lot easier to proceed

using a second AI than it is to transition to partial panel. Sure we all

maintain currency and proficiency but who is ever so proficient that

they can fly partial panel as well as they can with an AI? Not me no

matter how hard I try. To me partial panel, whether it is with a TC or a

T&SI, is a serious event and probably qualifies as an emergency. Having

a second self-contained AI changes that dynamic tremendously.



YMMV



 	  Quote: 	
		   Happy Skies,

  

 Old Bob


	


-- 

Brian Lloyd                         2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

David Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 ....be sure to review and compare the JPI engine monitor if you have not 

 made a decision yet.


	


I will but they have a couple of strikes against them:



1. JPI is expensive.



2. JPI screwed Matt Dralle over the name "fuel scan".



3. JPI changed the data format for their engine data storage without

telling the customers so that they could not continue processing their

data as they had in the past.



I do not think JPI is customer oriented.



They do have good engineering and good products but if all the other

things are equal, I will go with a different company.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

In a message dated 1/17/2006 12:06:22 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

brian-yak(at)lloyd.com writes:



They do  have good engineering and good products but if all the other

things are  equal, I will go with a different company.





For all the same reasons given:

 

Me Too!!

 

DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503

Jerry Grimmonpre'

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

PTAB Pictorial Turn & Bank from TruTrak Systems

      This display is like a horizon in roll and actually moves in unison 

with the horizon. This makes the transition from viewing the horizon much 

easier than the reverse display of a standard turn coordinator. For much 

greater life and reliability it uses a solid state gyro instead of a 

spinning disc (or solid gyro wheel).

      AVAILABLE in 2 1/4 or 3 1/8 for additional $50.00.         $425.00 

Each

Hi Bob ... here's the present day version.  About half the price of a new 2 

1/4" T&B with a spinning gyro.  I'm not affiliated with Stein Air, just a 

shopper.  Do Not Archive

Regards ...

Jerry Grimmonpre'

mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

David,



Can I suggest you take a look at a better Engine Management System.

Research Zerionavionix.com Great Company, and a very well thought

out Engine system, Soon to be certed. These guys are very customer

oriented.



Mitchell Goodrich

Varieze Tampa, FL



--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Good Morning Jerry,

 

One of the reasons I am so enthusiastic about the T&B is because it is  so 

different looking.

 

It is too bad they didn't make the  PTAB Pictorial Turn  & Bank with a 

needle. 

 

The way it works is much closer to the classic T&B than it is to the  TC.  

The TC responds to roll and yaw. The T&B responds to yaw  only. As I read the 

brochure, the unit also responds only to yaw and I do  not have any idea how it 

would respond when in a spin.

 

It is not clear to me that the one listed will perform at high roll rates  

and unusual attitudes in the same manner as does a classic T&B.

 

I am going to take the liberty of sending you something off list that tries  

to explain why I think we should be teaching people to stop the turn instead 

of  leveling the wings.

 

The short version is that when we get vertigo, it takes a lot of discipline  

to believe the attitude style presentation of the TC and/or the attitude  

indicator.

 

With the turn needle, there is no need to believe the instrument over what  

your senses are telling you.  All that is needed is to stop the turn!   Since 

the turn needle tells you nothing directly about your attitude, there is  no 

confusion.  Stop the turn by centering the needle and you will  survive.  It 

makes no difference at all whether you think you are sideways  or whether you 

think you are right side up.  

 

I repeat -- Stop the turn and you will survive!

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503

 

In a message dated 1/17/2006 1:47:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

jerry(at)mc.net writes:



PTAB Pictorial Turn & Bank from TruTrak Systems

This display is like a horizon in roll and actually moves in  unison 

with the horizon. This makes the transition from viewing the  horizon much 

easier than the reverse display of a standard turn  coordinator. For much 

greater life and reliability it uses a solid state  gyro instead of a 

spinning disc (or solid gyro wheel).

AVAILABLE in 2 1/4 or 3 1/8 for additional $50.00.       $425.00 

Each

Hi Bob ... here's the present day  version.  About half the price of a new 2 

1/4" T&B with a  spinning gyro.  I'm not affiliated with Stein Air, just a  

shopper.  Do Not Archive

mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Morning All,



Well I really goofed this time. The engine Management System website

for comparrison is Xerionavionis.com  not Zerionavionix. My

apologies. 



Mitchell Goodrich



--

harley(at)AgelessWings.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Morning, Mitch...



Better go grab another cup of coffee...and don't try writing emails 

until you've finished it! <VBG>



One more time now..



http://xerionavionix.com/



And this one IS the correct address (I checked it in my browser <G>)



Harley Dixon

Long EZ N28EZ

..Right down the tarmac from Xerion, at the Canandaigua, NY airport (D38).



Mitchell Goodrich wrote:



[quote]

Morning All,



Well I really goofed this time. The engine Management System website

for comparrison is Xerionavionis.com  not Zerionavionix. My

apologies. 



Mitchell Goodrich



--

jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Well Mitchell, I think maybe you goofed twice! 



They might want to try: http://www.xerionavionics.com/

Seems you left out a "c". I know, it's too early ... no coffee yet. Right?





James



On 1/18/06, Mitchell Goodrich <mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.com>

 Morning All,



 Well I really goofed this time. The engine Management System website

 for comparrison is Xerionavionis.com  not Zerionavionix. My

 apologies.



 Mitchell Goodrich

 <<<SNIP>>>

mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

An Early Good Morning,



Well for all of you that tried my link to the Engine Management System

Comparison, I goofed twice. Too bad spell check doesn't pick up

URL mistakes also. I'd better get another cup of coffee and my glasses

on.



www.xerionavionix.com   



Check it out   



Mitchell Goodrich

VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Old Bob,

            I have followed the latest T&B discussions, and after having 

flown since 1948, must agree with everything you say. In thuh old days we 

called limited panel flying, "needle, ball and airspeed". Is that the dial 

you're referring to?

            Nothing, nothing, has impressed me over 58 different machines 

(from dusters to transports, water and snow) more than those magic minutes 

when I was taught NB&A. Anyone who has missed this phase during training and 

after should take a Cnote to the best oldtimer instructor in the area and 

demand to be let into the 'club'. (I also admit to failing to practice from 

timne to time).

            I'm pretty certain you have the same experience and just want to 

say how closely to my appreciation your comments are. As our Ottawa friend 

said, a turn co-ordinator won't work in an inverted spin (ah well) but a 

'T&B' will. It must be obvious that any less critical upset in cloud can be 

swiftly dealt with if you get the 'picture' a T&B gives.

            Keep on truckin'.

Cheers, Ferg



---

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

Thank You Ferg,  



It is nice to know that I am not alone out there while twisting in the  wind!

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

In a message dated 1/18/2006 9:09:23 A.M. Central Standard Time,  

VE3LVO(at)rac.ca writes:



I'm pretty certain you have the same  experience and just want to 

say how closely to my appreciation your  comments are. As our Ottawa friend 

said, a turn co-ordinator won't work in  an inverted spin (ah well) but a 

'T&B' will. It must be obvious that  any less critical upset in cloud can be 

swiftly dealt with if you get the  'picture' a T&B gives.

Keep  on truckin'.

Cheers, Ferg

JohnT(at)comp-sol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>

Subject: Re: EFIS Comparisons

<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		   On top of that, neither instrument will tumble as will some attitude gyros.

But in order to be used as a replacement for a T&SI or a TC the AI must

be non-tumbling. If it has stops on the gimbals it may not be used to

replace the turn instrument. There are a number of non-tumbling AIs out

there. Sporty's has a nice one for $1600. It also has an inclinometer

(ball).

I am interested in the Sporty's AI - so I asked customer service about the non-tumbling....

Janet Jones wrote "The unit is not a non-tumbling instrument." <emphasis added>

I'll probably call Castleberry (at) 512-251-5322 and ask them...thought someone more knowledgable might be able to help?

This is referenced by Sporty's - AC91-75: http://www.sportys.com/terryc/images/ac91-75.pdf

John

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

John Tvedte wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak(at)lloyd.com>

 Subject: Re: EFIS Comparisons

 <snip>

>On top of that, neither instrument will tumble as will some attitude gyros.

 But in order to be used as a replacement for a T&SI or a TC the AI must

 be non-tumbling. If it has stops on the gimbals it may not be used to

 replace the turn instrument. There are a number of non-tumbling AIs out

 there. Sporty's has a nice one for $1600. It also has an inclinometer

 (ball).

 I am interested in the Sporty's AI - so I asked customer service about the non-tumbling....

 Janet Jones wrote "The unit is not a non-tumbling instrument." <emphasis added>

Wow. I thought that the FAA requirement for an STC to replace a T&SI or

a TC with a second attitude gyro is that it be good for 360 degrees in

both pitch and roll. You have to be able to use the instrument to

recover from an upset which you can't do with an AI that has tumbled.

 	  Quote: 	

 I'll probably call Castleberry (at) 512-251-5322 and ask them...thought someone more knowledgable might be able to help?

 This is referenced by Sporty's - AC91-75: http://www.sportys.com/terryc/images/ac91-75.pdf

You are right. It doesn't say "non-tumbling". Seems like a serious

oversight to me. If I somehow manage to cause my primary AI to tumble my

backup is likely to tumble too. If you have replaced the T&SI or TC with

an AI you might not be able to recover. I guess you would then have to

rely on the HI (DG) to give you turn information so you can "stop the turn".

But I sure as heck would want a non-tumbling gyro in this application.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Randy Richter

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Reston, VA

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: EFIS Comparisons

I spoke to the rep at Oshkosh this summer and this seems like a very good

product. The one thing that gives me pause is the fact that the software

will not be user upgradeable. They will require you to remove the unit and

send it in to them for upgrades. If I'm not mistaken, most of the others

provide updated software via removable card or something similar, right?



He said this was because they're seeking certification and that's not

allowed for certified products. Which tells me they won't have an

"experimental" version of this system.



Randy Richter

-7QB coming along VERY slowly



--

_________________
Randy Richter
-7AQB Emp started

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Page 4 of 5

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum