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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:48 am Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). 



I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

Thanks,

Charlie

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:17 am Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

Charlie -

Your question seems to come up on this - and other lists - every year or two. You'll get impassioned responses as any pilots seem to regard their choice of oil as sacrosanct.

Personally, I used Penzoil Air-Cooled religiously for my 503 except when I was flying long cross countries, since it just wasn't easily available. So I'd drain all the Penzoil and switch to a TC-W3 oil. ANY TC-W3 oil - Walmart, Auto Zone. it didn't seem to matter at all. 



Then Penzoil quit making the air-cooled, and I went to a 582, and I had difficulty getting the Shell oil that is now recommended - so I went to straight TC-W3 oil - again, regardless of brand. 



I've got over 1000 hours on 582s, and have only used TC-W3. No problems at all.

HOWEVER - that's just my personal experience, and you can't extrapolate a conclusion from only one example.

Good luck with your decision.

Arty Trost

Sandy, Oregon

 

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm    "Life's a daring adventure or nothing"                       Helen Keller    "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."



       From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 5:52 AM

 Subject: 2 stroke oil type?

  

 

I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). 



I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

Thanks,

Charlie

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

I am afraid that I don't know what oil most are using on their engines ( since the demise of Pennzoil air cooled)  but I will warn you that depending on the designation of TW3 to get the proper oil will get you the experience of a de- carbon within 30 days. Hopefully someone will pop up with the best soon. Just be aware that the local oil company will give you more carbon than you want.Larry

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). 



I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

Thanks,

Charlie



 	




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The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

We had excellent results with a 503 and 582 burning Wal-mart Two Stroke TCW-3 oil by the gal.



When a friend was ready to break in his 503 I gave him two gals of Wal-mart TCW-3 oil which had sat on a shelf at my hose for 15 to 20 years.  He burned that, with 87 octane ethanol free gas, and many more gals before he finished his MKIII and powered it with the engine from John Williamson's Kolbra. The FS and 503 were sold to a local who has since flown the same engine with no problems.



I don't have a 2 stroke powered airplane anymore, but burn Wal-mart TCW-3 in many two powered machines.



You'll get all kinds of answers to the two stroke oil question.  I think as long as the two stroke is run hard it will perform well with any two stroke oil.  My own personal opinion and experience, of course.



john h

mkIII

Rock House, Oregon



---- Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and

 I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The

 only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either

 ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call

 itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and

 air cooled 2 strokes).

 

 I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2

 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural'

 oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world,

 it's the opposite.

 

 So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics?

 I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium,

 alcohol-free auto gas).

 

 Thanks,

 

 Charlie

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

As you can see, the response about TC-W3 can be interesting. If you really

want to get a response, take it to the Rotax forum.

Regardless, there is one thing you need to know, NEVER EVER mix API-TC and

TC-W3. Especially in oil injection systems. They coagulate when mixed. This

isn't an urban myth, I asked the engineers at Shell Oil and they confirmed

it. I don't know what happens when you mix them together with gasoline, but

I don't do that with mine, either.



Rick Girard



On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:40 AM, <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 We had excellent results with a 503 and 582 burning Wal-mart Two Stroke

 TCW-3 oil by the gal.



 When a friend was ready to break in his 503 I gave him two gals of

 Wal-mart TCW-3 oil which had sat on a shelf at my hose for 15 to 20 years

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time. 

Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's  just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth.

George H.

Firestar, FS100, 1986

Mesick, Michigan 



Have a great day!



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). 

 

 I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

 

 So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

 

 Thanks,

 

 Charlie

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

Hi George,

To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started 

reading on the interwebs. 

I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for 

water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the 

original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil 

companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it 

tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to 

assume any more than I have to.

Charlie

On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time.

 Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's  just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth.

 George H.

 Firestar, FS100, 1986

 Mesick, Michigan

 Have a great day!

> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes).

>

> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

>

> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

>

> Thanks,

>

> Charlie

---

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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

Charlie, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure this stuff out. API-TC is the standard that I use for (TC) Two Cycle air cooled engines. API stands for American petroleum institute. W-3 (water cooled generation three) is a outboard motor manufacturers organization standard. 

Who's right? Beats me!?? Like I said. I'd find a "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil that you can readily obtain and works well in your engine and stay with it. Always take it easy on your engine for a couple of when changing brands. Most of the engine failures that I have seen over the years were the result of guys all switching to the latest and greatest. Beware of snake oil and unicorn ear wax. I'm smiling...

George H.

Have a great day!

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 11, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Hi George,

 To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. 

 I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to.

 Charlie

> On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote:

> 

> 

> I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time.

> Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's  just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth.

> George H.

> Firestar, FS100, 1986

> Mesick, Michigan

> 

> Have a great day!

> 

>> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>> 

>> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes).

>> 

>> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

>> 

>> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

>> 

>> Thanks,

>> 

>> Charlie

 ---

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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

I won't obsess over it; just didn't want to make an easily avoided 

mistake. Some of the W3 stuff actually says it meets TC specs too, so I 

can live (I hope) with that. This plane is dirt simple, even for a Kolb. 

No battery or starter, original point ignition, minimal instruments; 

just a before breakfast/after dinner flyer.

I do appreciate everyone's insight. If any of us cross paths, I'd be 

happy to swap rides with you. Right/back seat in your Kolb for back seat 

in my RV (airborne version).

Charlie

If the 503 goes to lunch, there will probably be an electric motor in my 

future. I doubt I'll ever fly this thing more than 30 minutes, or leave 

sight of the runway, anyway.

On 9/11/2017 4:40 PM, George Helton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Charlie, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure this stuff out. API-TC is the standard that I use for (TC) Two Cycle air cooled engines. API stands for American petroleum institute. W-3 (water cooled generation three) is a outboard motor manufacturers organization standard.

 Who's right? Beats me!?? Like I said. I'd find a "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil that you can readily obtain and works well in your engine and stay with it. Always take it easy on your engine for a couple of when changing brands. Most of the engine failures that I have seen over the years were the result of guys all switching to the latest and greatest. Beware of snake oil and unicorn ear wax. I'm smiling...

 George H.

 Have a great day!

> On Sep 11, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Hi George,

>

> To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. 

>

> I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to.

>

> Charlie

>

>> On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote:

>> 

>>

>> I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time.

>> Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's  just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth.

>> George H.

>> Firestar, FS100, 1986

>> Mesick, Michigan

>>

>> Have a great day!

>>

>>> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes).

>>>

>>> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

>>>

>>> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

>>>

>>> Thanks,

>>>

>>> Charlie

>

---

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: 2 stroke oil type?

The old Rotax 2 cycle 2 cylinder engines use dual point ignition.  Point dwell/point gap determines ign timing.  Point rubbing blocks wear quicking on occasion, which in turn changes timing.  Each cylinder timing is controlled by each set of points.  Point ign's caused many engine failures in the old days prior to CDI.  Most folks blamed the failures on oil, fuel mixture, spark plugs, etc.

I put a lot of hours on my 447 point ign engines in a short period of time on extremely long distance flights for ultralights back in the 1980's.  On flights from Alabama to NY I would have to adj points, sometimes replace because the rubbing blocks would wear excessively.  On one flight to NY I had to replace both coils that had vibrated to the point of nearly falling out of their mounts.

Growing up in the 1940s and 50s I remember most two stroke engines were run on whatever oil was available around the house and farm.  Put a lot of miles on a Harley-Davidson 125cc two stroke motorcycle draining motor oil out of used cans and bottles at service stations.  Same for outboard marine engines.

john h

mkIII

Rock House, Oregon

Early timing caused by point rubbing block wear caused a lot of burned pistons and engine failures.  CDI on the newer engines was a blessing.

---- George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	

 Charlie, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure this stuff out. API-TC is the standard that I use for (TC) Two Cycle air cooled engines. API stands for American petroleum institute. W-3 (water cooled generation three) is a outboard motor manufacturers organization standard. 

 Who's right? Beats me!?? Like I said. I'd find a "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil that you can readily obtain and works well in your engine and stay with it. Always take it easy on your engine for a couple of when changing brands. Most of the engine failures that I have seen over the years were the result of guys all switching to the latest and greatest. Beware of snake oil and unicorn ear wax. I'm smiling...

 George H.

 Have a great day!

 > On Sep 11, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Hi George,

 > 

 > To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. 

 > 

 > I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to.

 > 

 > Charlie

 > 

 >> On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote:

 >> 

 >> 

 >> I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time.

 >> Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's  just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth.

 >> George H.

 >> Firestar, FS100, 1986

 >> Mesick, Michigan

 >> 

 >> Have a great day!

 >> 

 >>> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 >>> 

 >>> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes).

 >>> 

 >>> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite.

 >>> 

 >>> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas).

 >>> 

 >>> Thanks,

 >>> 

 >>> Charlie

 > 

 > 

 > ---

 > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

 > https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 > 

 > 

 > 

 >

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: 2 stroke oil type?

Lots of good stuff on here. Perhaps the best advice was to find something you like and stick with it. Availability counts for a lot. I have been using Phillips Injex 2 stroke oil since 1983 with good results, it is a TC-W3 oil. One summer I used nothing but Pennzoil just to see if it made any difference. Seemed like there were a lot more oily carbon spots on the tail, but aside from that it worked good too. 

When you find what you like, buy it by the case, it keeps well.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

west1m

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 155
Location: Hastings, MN

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:55 am Post subject: Re: 2 stroke oil type?

Here in Minnesota there are plenty of snowmobile dealers. So I have been using Polaris two stroke oil, sold in bulk, bring back the one gal jug for a refill. OK that was to keep it about Kolbs. John H. , you touched a nerve! here is the Harley 165CC my dad bought for me back in the mid sixty's. I still have it.

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