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GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

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donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

My current shop was built two years ago.  All the 120 circuits have GFCI breakers.  Specifically Siemens type QPF, 20a. 



About a month ago, whenever I went into the shop, one of the breakers would be tripped. The only thing on that circuit is a lathe and work light.  I unplugged them and it would be tripped the next morning.  I swapped the circuit with a different breaker and the same breaker kept tripping. So it would appear that I've got a bad breaker.  



I went to Home Depot and got a new one ($53!!!    ).  All good now. 



Except now there's a breaker on a completely different circuit tripping.  This one only stays set for about an hour before tripping (with nothing connected to the circuit).  



I did a quick google and it appears that this is common and referred to as "nuisance tripping". 



Does anyone have any suggestions on how to resolve it without dropping another $53?

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

Sure. $7 breaker. 

 Charlie

 On Sep 16, 2017, at 6:14 PM, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com>My current shop was built two years ago.  All the 120 circuits have GFCI breakers.  Specifically Siemens type QPF, 20a. About a month ago, whenever I went into the shop, one of the breakers would be tripped. The only thing on that circuit is a lathe and work light.  I unplugged them and it would be tripped the next morning.  I swapped the circuit with a different breaker and the same breaker kept tripping. So it would appear that I've got a bad breaker.  I went to Home Depot and got a new one ($53!!!    ).  All good now. Except now there's a breaker on a completely different circuit tripping.  This one only stays set for about an hour before tripping (with nothing connected to the circuit).  I did a quick google and it appears that this is common and referred to as "nuisance tripping". Does anyone have any suggestions on how to resolve it without dropping another $53?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472926#472926atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Naa href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

Any chance of condensation or water leakage?

I've also seen tripping issues when mice get at the wiring.

Ken



On 16/09/2017 8:47 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sure. $7 breaker. 



 Charlie

 On Sep 16, 2017, at 6:14 PM, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com 

 <mailto:don(at)velocity-xl.com>> wrote:



     



     My current shop was built two years ago.  All the 120 circuits have GFCI breakers.  Specifically Siemens type QPF, 20a.



     About a month ago, whenever I went into the shop, one of the breakers would be tripped. The only thing on that circuit is a lathe and work light.  I unplugged them and it would be tripped the next morning.  I swapped the circuit with a different breaker and the same breaker kept tripping. So it would appear that I've got a bad breaker.



     I went to Home Depot and got a new one ($53!!!    ).  All good now.



     Except now there's a breaker on a completely different circuit tripping.  This one only stays set for about an hour before tripping (with nothing connected to the circuit).



     I did a quick google and it appears that this is common and referred to as "nuisance tripping".



     Does anyone have any suggestions on how to resolve it without dropping another $53?





     Read this topic online here:



     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472926#472926atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Naa

     href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472926#472926>

     ------------------------------------------------------------------------

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:20 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

 	  ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Sure. $7 breaker. 

	




Thanks for the tip on how to void my homeowners insurance.

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:21 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

 	  yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co wrote: 	
		  Any chance of condensation or water leakage?

I've also seen tripping issues when mice get at the wiring.

	




No.  Nice and dry with no rodents.

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:11 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

A ground fault outlet could be used instead of a ground fault circuit breaker.  A ground fault outlet can be wired to protect all other outlets that are electrically located downstream from it.

_________________
Joe Gores

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:38 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

 	  user9253 wrote: 	
		  A ground fault outlet could be used instead of a ground fault circuit breaker.  A ground fault outlet can be wired to protect all other outlets that are electrically located downstream from it. 	




Not here.  Code requires a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel.  Otherwise I would have gone that route because the outlets don't seem to have as many nuisance trips as the breakers do.

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:29 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

From Electrician.com:



Try to keep your circuit length <100' (not much help if it's in a finished wall) and make the receptacle neutrals all home runs.



Also suggested is to use a megohm meter to measure resistance to each outlet to find the cause of an unloaded circuit tripping.

 



Forum link:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/gfci-breaker-nuisance-tripping-51950/



Good luck

JOhn

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

On 9/17/2017 4:20 AM, donjohnston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:

> Sure. $7 breaker. 

>

 Thanks for the tip on how to void my homeowners insurance.

Sorry for the short, then delayed answers; I was on the road & fingering 

my phone.

I certainly wasn't trying to get you in trouble with anyone. But your 

1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker 

in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few 

years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over 

kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc). I've seen a *lot* of CB panels, 

and I've never seen one where every 120V breaker was GFI. Are you in 

some country other than the USA, or some state or county with bizarrely 

draconian electrical codes?

I know that if a contractor tried to tell me I needed GFIs in every 

slot, I'd be looking for another contractor.

Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on 

the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and 

the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure 

that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. Also, you can buy 

an inexpensive GFI tester for <$20, if you shop around online. There's 

tons of posts online about troubleshooting the issue, too.

Here's a link from a reputable meter mfgr discussing how to troubleshoot 

the problem.

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/comunidad/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips

Charlie

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bobkuc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

I believe that the code now states that arc fault are needed everywhere.  Gfci do not like anything that has a motor on it, like microwaves, refrigerators, dishwashers.





On Sep 17, 2017 7:42 PM, "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>

 

 On 9/17/2017 4:20 AM, donjohnston wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>

 

 

 ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Sure. $7 breaker. 

 

 	
 

 Thanks for the tip on how to void my homeowners insurance.

 	
 Sorry for the short, then delayed answers; I was on the road & fingering my phone.

 

 I certainly wasn't trying to get you in trouble with anyone. But your 1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc). I've seen a *lot* of CB panels, and I've never seen one where every 120V breaker was GFI. Are you in some country other than the USA, or some state or county with bizarrely draconian electrical codes?

 

 I know that if a contractor tried to tell me I needed GFIs in every slot, I'd be looking for another contractor.

 

 Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for <$20, if you shop around online. There's tons of posts online about troubleshooting the issue, too.

 

 Here's a link from a reputable meter mfgr discussing how to troubleshoot the problem.

 http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/comunidad/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips

 

 

 Charlie

 

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gfarek(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

Great article!

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 17, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9/17/2017 4:20 AM, donjohnston wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:

>> Sure. $7 breaker. 

>> 

> 

> Thanks for the tip on how to void my homeowners insurance.

 Sorry for the short, then delayed answers; I was on the road & fingering my phone.

 I certainly wasn't trying to get you in trouble with anyone. But your 1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc). I've seen a *lot* of CB panels, and I've never seen one where every 120V breaker was GFI. Are you in some country other than the USA, or some state or county with bizarrely draconian electrical codes?

 I know that if a contractor tried to tell me I needed GFIs in every slot, I'd be looking for another contractor.

 Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for <$20, if you shop around online. There's tons of posts online about troubleshooting the issue, too.

 Here's a link from a reputable meter mfgr discussing how to troubleshoot the problem.

 http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/comunidad/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips

 Charlie

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donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

 	  ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  But your 

1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker 

in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few 

years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over 

kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc). 	




The subpanel in my shop only serves the shop.  



The code (as I understand it) is that every accessible outlet in a damp enviroment, garage, workshop or unfinished area must be protected by a GFCI breaker.  Now whether that has to be an actual circuit breaker or if the first outlet can be a GFCI outlet which protects all the outlets downstream, is something I'm not certain about.  



If a GFCI outlet can be used, I'm guessing that since I was installing the outlets, the electrican decided to go with the breaker in case I didn't install the correct outlet.



I'm currently trying to nail down if Florida requires the breaker or if an outlet is acceptable. I've found the breakers online for about $40 so that takes some of the sting out of it. 



I do not have GFCI breakers in every slot.  Only those which go to outlets. 



 	  ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. 	




I would think that if there were ground or neutral wiring problems that the tripping would remain on the same circuit instead of moving with the breaker. 



 	  ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		   Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for <$20, if you shop around online. 	




I'll look into getting one of those. 



Thanks.

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:47 am Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

On 9/18/2017 10:09 AM, donjohnston       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com> (don(at)velocity-xl.com)

ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		  But your 

1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker 

in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few 

years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over 

kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc).

	
       



The subpanel in my shop only serves the shop.  



The code (as I understand it) is that every accessible outlet in a damp enviroment, garage, workshop or unfinished area must be protected by a GFCI breaker.  Now whether that has to be an actual circuit breaker or if the first outlet can be a GFCI outlet which protects all the outlets downstream, is something I'm not certain about.  



If a GFCI outlet can be used, I'm guessing that since I was installing the outlets, the electrican decided to go with the breaker in case I didn't install the correct outlet.



I'm currently trying to nail down if Florida requires the breaker or if an outlet is acceptable. I've found the breakers online for about $40 so that takes some of the sting out of it. 



I do not have GFCI breakers in every slot.  Only those which go to outlets. 

ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		  Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure.

	
       



I would think that if there were ground or neutral wiring problems that the tripping would remain on the same circuit instead of moving with the breaker. 

ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		   Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for 

	
       	
       

     	
     I haven't read the NEC on GFIs, but it's difficult to understand the     logic of including 'workshop' in the code. Plugging a drill motor or     other tool in a 'workshop' outlet is no different from plugging it     in an outlet in your house. I would have thought the only variable     would be the damp/moisture issue. Some workshops might be damp, but     most people want to keep their tools & equipment dry.

     

     I mentioned looking for 'system' issues because of your earlier     email:

      	  Quote: 	
		  About a month ago, whenever I went into the shop, one of the breakers would be tripped. The only thing on that circuit is a lathe and work light.  I unplugged them and it would be tripped the next morning.  I swapped the circuit with a different breaker and the same breaker kept tripping. So it would appear that I've got a bad breaker.  



I went to Home Depot and got a new one ($53!!!    ).  All good now. 



Except now there's a breaker on a completely different circuit tripping.  This one only stays set for about an hour before tripping (with nothing connected to the circuit).  

	
     So from your narrative it sounded  like you have more than one GFI     that's nuisance tripping.

     

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rick(at)beebe.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

On 9/17/2017 4:39 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on 

 the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and 

 the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure 

 that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure.


	


Neutral should not be bonded to ground in a subpanel; only back at the 

main panel. And also, make sure that your ground and neutral wires in 

the subpanel are on their separate and appropriate bus-bars.



--Rick

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

Just out of curiosity, is the wiring in metal conduit, plastic flex, or Romex?



I have had to troubleshoot drywall nails/screws that hit the bullseye in Romex, w/o nail plates,between the hot/neutral and bare ground wire. A lot less likely in plastic conduit because the wires are free to be pushed aside...unless you were born under a bad sign. Metal self-explanatory.



John

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation)

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:01 PM, jonlaury <jonlaury(at)impulse.net (jonlaury(at)impulse.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net (jonlaury(at)impulse.net)>

 nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:

 > At 06:39 PM 9/17/2017, you wrote:

 >

 >

 >    ...Similarly, a wall-receptacle GFI can be used as

 >

 >   ...a test tool. You can wire your 'problem feeder'

 >   to the LOAD pair of terminals while using a pair

 >   of jumpers from the LINE pair to the panel ground

 >   and any handy breaker. See if the test GFI complains

 >   about feeder quality...

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >    Bob . . .

 Is this correct?? Sounds like using a pair of jumpers from LINE pair to the panel ground is going to make a lot of sparks and smoke.

 2nd Question:

 In using a clamp on meter as depicted, assuming it can detect 5ma leak, will the meter show an absolute number? or will it show a positive value for leakage on the hot leg and a negative value for the neutral leg?

 That would be convenient 

 John

I think he's telling you to take your shop's wiring out of that circuit. Tie the neutral side (both ends) to ground instead of the neutral. Feed the GFI from a regular breaker. If your shop wiring is causing the problem (nail, screw, etc) then the GFI will no longer see the current imbalance & won't trip. If the GFI is flaky, it will still trip.

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