Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Sun Shade

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Sun Shade - Night VFR

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Jim Pellien wrote " Once you have the correct engine and the airframe

certification from the manufacturer, then a private pilot can fly it IFR or

at night if they have received the proper training and sign-offs and are

current for each flight regime.



The following is a cut-n-paste from a posting by Pete at JabiruUSA on this

issue.  This is an important point for those of use with Private

Certificates that want to build LSA compliant aircraft.  It may be that

Rotax limits the use of some models of its engines at night.



"The only application of JAR22H engine certification in the USA is for

Primary Category Aircraft under 750 kg.  Primary category aircraft under 750

kg can use a JAR22H engine if limited to day VFR.



JAR22H does not come into play in the LSA area.  Engines are compliant to

ASTM F2339.



Jabiru engines used in experimental amateur built aircraft can be flown in

any condition that the aircraft operating limitations allow, night usually

being one of them.  Under a LSA certificate there is no prohibition on the

part of Jabiru against night operation.  There is no specific prohibition in

the FAR's prohibiting night flight in S-LSA aircraft.  The implied

restriction is in the certificate in that it is based on ASTM F2245-04.  It

is stated in the scope of that standard that it applies to LSA aircraft

operated day VFR.



To be clear - it is not the Jabiru engine that limits an aircraft to day

VFR."



Jeff Davidson

CH601-HD

jpellien

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Basye, Virginia

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Jeff,



I believe that any experimental aircraft that is properly equipped for night

operation can be operated at night by a properly trained private pilot,

unless for some unusual reason the builder of the airplane limited it to day

VFR in the POH.  For ELSA's, the builder determines the operating

limitations.  If you, as the  "Builder", do not limit your aircraft to Day

VFR only in the POH, then it can be flown at night with the proper lighting.

Ditto for IFR, again only for private pilots properly trained and current.



It works differently with SLSA's.  In SLSA's the "Builder" that is listed on

the airworthiness certificate Line D is the SLSA manufacturer. SLSA's are

completely factory-built.   Now they, the manufacturers, are in control and

can, and do, limit the operation of perfectly good aircraft simply by

stating so in the POH.  I believe they do this to limit their risk and

liability to lawsuits. If I were in their position, I'd do the same thing.

For purchasers of SLSA aircraft, they need to read the POH for the specific

aircraft that they are purchasing and see what limitations are included.  If

they do not like what they see, then they should ask the manufacturer to

delete IFR/Night limitations.  They may do it to make a sale, or they may

not.  They may do it for a higher price.  Everything is negotiable. 



Jim 



Jim Pellien

Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes

Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)

Basye, VA

www.MASPL.com

703-313-4818

 



--

_________________
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
703-313-4818
703-851-9375
www.MASPL.com
"Learn-2-Fly-in-1-Week"

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Jim wrote:



"I believe that any experimental aircraft that is properly equipped for

night operation can be operated at night by a properly trained private

pilot, unless for some unusual reason the builder of the airplane limited it

to day VFR in the POH.  For ELSA's, the builder determines the operating

limitations.  If you, as the  "Builder", do not limit your aircraft to Day

VFR only in the POH, then it can be flown at night with the proper lighting.

Ditto for IFR, again only for private pilots properly trained and current."



I agree.  I think the only loose end here is whether any other engine

manufacturer (Rotax?) puts limitations on the use of any of their engines

for the same reason as above.  Clearly Jabiru doesn't.  The first post made

it sound like there were restrictions on the 912UL. If so, a builder

choosing that engine would have to include those limitations in the POH.

Maybe someone out there knows the answer.



Jeff Davidson

moorecomp(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Jim,



Maybe you saw this, maybe not.



http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/news/AMD_SLSA_IFR_CERTIFIED.htm



IFR Certified 601XLi using O-200.  That sounds like a

great fit for flight schools, give SPL or PPL

instruction during the day and be able to do night and

IFR as well.

And this article explains again what you have said.



http://www.sportpilot.org/news/051013_ifr.html#TopOfPage



Best regards,



Craig Moore A&P

Mancelona, MI

701 builder wannabe



--- Jim Pellien <jim(at)pellien.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jim(at)pellien.com>

 

 Jeff,

 

 I believe that any experimental aircraft that is

 properly equipped for night

 operation can be operated at night by a properly

 trained private pilot,

 unless for some unusual reason the builder of the

 airplane limited it to day

 VFR in the POH.  For ELSA's, the builder determines

 the operating

 limitations.  If you, as the  "Builder", do not

 limit your aircraft to Day

 VFR only in the POH, then it can be flown at night

 with the proper lighting.

 Ditto for IFR, again only for private pilots

 properly trained and current.

 

 It works differently with SLSA's.  In SLSA's the

 "Builder" that is listed on

 the airworthiness certificate Line D is the SLSA

 manufacturer. SLSA's are

 completely factory-built.   Now they, the

 manufacturers, are in control and

 can, and do, limit the operation of perfectly good

 aircraft simply by

 stating so in the POH.  I believe they do this to

 limit their risk and

 liability to lawsuits. If I were in their position,

 I'd do the same thing.

 For purchasers of SLSA aircraft, they need to read

 the POH for the specific

 aircraft that they are purchasing and see what

 limitations are included.  If

 they do not like what they see, then they should ask

 the manufacturer to

 delete IFR/Night limitations.  They may do it to

 make a sale, or they may

 not.  They may do it for a higher price.  Everything

 is negotiable. 

 

 Jim 

 

 Jim Pellien

 Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes

 Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)

 Basye, VA

 www.MASPL.com

 703-313-4818

snipped
	




__________________________________________________

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

My 600 Taildragger will be certified as expirmental and can be flown at night. Any sport pilot can fly it within Sport Pilot rules as it will have a gross weight of 1,100 pounds or so. It has a Cont. A65 for power. Should receive the registration this month, DAR next month and then flying in late August or early September. Goal is to fly it to the EAA Fly In in Casa Grande. 

  



-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Steve-

     If I knew for sure, I wouldn't  ask. Is the A65 the 65hp Cub engine? New signature attached per lister's post  request.

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS being relocated to new shop

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

jpellien

Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Basye, Virginia

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Jeff,



I think you are right.  If the manufacturer of a major manufacturer

subsystem like an engine, puts a limitation on the use of that engine, then

the experimental builder would probably have to follow that engine

manufacturer's limitation.  



We need a person with a handle on the FAR's to straighten this one out...it

is a great question.



Jim



Jim Pellien

Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes

Sky Bryce Airport (VG18)

Basye, VA

www.MASPL.com

703-313-4818

 



--

_________________
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
703-313-4818
703-851-9375
www.MASPL.com
"Learn-2-Fly-in-1-Week"

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Members,

      I am very much  surprised that my original message shown below in blue would cause such a  lengthy discussion

  

 Randy,

     If you are building your XL in  compliance with the Light Sport Plane 

criteria, you cannot fly at night so a  tinted canopy would be the way to go. That's the way I am going but I don't  think a tinted canopy is going to keep the heat out as much as a shade so I plan  to have both.  I agree with the member who says it's better to use the  Van's sliding shade rather that the suction cup type for the same  reasons he stated.

      

     I guess what I should  have said is if your rating is Sport Pilot, you cannot fly at night but if you  hold a regular pilots license Your medical is up to date and your aircraft is  properly equiped for night flying then you may do so.  I have had a regular  pilots license for a little over 30 years and would be able to fly a properly  equiped experemental at night until my current physical runs out and I do not  intend to get another flight physical.  I will just keep my drivers license  up to date and fly a sport plane during daylight hours only.  I never did  like to fly at night anyway the black hole down below scares the hell out of  me.  The few times I have flown at night I sit there cruising along and  wonder how I am going to find a suitable place to land if the engine  quits.  As far as I am concerned night and instrument flying are for the  professionals who have to do it.  I am 100% retired and I don't have to do  anything but die, pay taxes, and honey-do chores.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

 ZodiacXL (Just started)

 Do not archive

  

 ---

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Bill,

 Yep, the same engine was on Champs, Piper Cubs, Taylor Crafts and many more. I can fly at night with the airplane being expirmental, but will only fly daylight.

 -- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

The engine manufacturers recommendations are irrelevant to an  

experimental amateur built aircraft. As long as tthe proper equipment  

is installed and the pilot has the proper qualifications, the plane  

can be flown at night or IFR. The same seems to be true for E-LSAs.  

The only such restrictions that I have been able to find only mention  

S-LSA aircraft.

[quote] 



 Jeff,



 I think you are right.  If the manufacturer of a major manufacturer

 subsystem like an engine, puts a limitation on the use of that  

 engine, then

 the experimental builder would probably have to follow that engine

 manufacturer's limitation.



 We need a person with a handle on the FAR's to straighten this one  

 out...it

 is a great question.



 Jim



 --

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Steve-

     I could care less about night  flying, too, as well as IFR. What I'm really interested to find out is what kind  of performance you get out of 65hp as opposed to the CH recommended 80hp, or the  kick of a 120hp Jab. Keep us all posted.

     Going through the "Name  change game" of Alltel to Windstream. The new main server won't be up and  running correctly until tomorrow. Regardless of what comes up as a return  address, my new address really is naumuk(at)windstream.net (naumuk(at)windstream.net).

     True to form, I ran out of  vacation before I ran out of work on the garanger. 1 sq of siding and 2 sides of  soffit/fascia to go, and of course, they're up at the max reach of my ladders. I  feel like someone beat me with a 2x4. Once I'm back at work tomorrow, I'll know  they have!

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS being relocated to new shop

Townville, Pa

  	  Quote:

ande437(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Hi Bill,

   I know the soreness feeling all too well. I  am just finishing installing a front opening canopy on my 601HD. Ref 65 horse  eng; I had a Jabiru 2200 on an Avid Aerobat and it compared favorably with a  Revmaster 75 horse on my 601HD. The Revmaster direct drive had a Culver 60 X 36  wood prop and seemed a little stronger and a lot quieter. Both burned about 3  gph. Both planes had acceptable performance. I now have an 0235 Lycoming on the  601 HD. It is a very strong "0" time engine and I feel it is overkill. I really  like it except for the 5 or 6 gph fuel burn. I probably would not change for the  bigger engine with the experience I now have. I let the waste of the small high  reving prop on a direct drive engine influence me too much. Do not let me  mislead you, I think the Lycoming is the best engine for the 601, I just think  the price and lack of economy is too high. 

   In my experience I would think 65 HP would  not give acceptable performance in a 601.

   By the way, I am probably going to build HDS  wings this fall. I bet that will help the economy of my plane on  trips.

 CUL,

 John     Alabama

  

 Do not archive

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Sun Shade - Night VFR

Bill,

 If my brain cooperates, I will send one or two pictures of the airplane after I get home tomorrow. I get off at 06:00 and will stop by DMAFB to hit a bucket of golf balls (practicing for a tournament in Oct), then to the airport to work on the airplane for two hours or so. Breakfast at the airport around 9 or 9:30 and then home. 

  

 I have been taxing the airplane around the airport and find the ground handling very nice - although it is easy to break the tail wheel loose and make a quick circle if I attempt to turn to tight. But have learned not to do that. Starting is the biggest issue since I have to find someone  trained and willing to assist. Hand propping is pretty easy most times. If I do not get the engine going on the first attempt, it often takes a pretty long second, third, fourth ......... attempt in the heat. I can tie the tail down by hitching to the tow-release before starting to hold the airplane. Then I add a second nylon cord (like parachute cord) to the tie-down ring in the ground and attached to the kill switch. If the airplane does move this cord will pull the kill switch out and stop the engine. The kill switch is a telephone type jack and cuts the electric current from magneto to stop the engine.  

 Works very well. It is easy to hold the airplane after the start. Always making sure only left mag, fuel off and throttle cracked less than 1/16 th inch or so. That is after turning fuel on, letting fuel fill gasolator and enter carbs, having everything off, airplane tail tied down properly and pulling though 5 blades. Then master (kill switch) on, throttle cracked, fuel off, left mag on, recheck tie-down and pull prop. This almost always gets engine running. Walk around behind wing, reach in and turn right mag on, fuel on, check throttle at idle, move to tail and unhook cord, roll up cord on plastic handle until short enough to enter cockpit. Get in airplane, sit down with feet on brakes and carefully unclip cord from kill switch (if not careful one will pull kill switch out and engine will stop = Ha), buckle up four point harness, release tow hook and the airplane will start moving forward at an idle - but very very slow. May switch to a C85 or something with a starter next year. That would entail elongating the engine compartment because of a slightly longer engine mount. But would eliminate the hand propping - which I enjoy, but many do not. 

  

 Gotta go and wash the fire trucks - Sunday chore for the crew.

  

 Do Not Archive

-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum