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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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I agree about shutting down engines. You should also shut off the fuel and
turnoff the master switch.
George
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing.
From: "JON" <jblake207(at)comcast.net>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Guys,Assuming that you are adequately insured there is only one thing to be considered and that is to walk away from the wreckage with as little trauma (and drama) as possible. At this point the insurance company owns your aircraft anyway, as some one smarter than I once said: fly it as far into the wreck as possible. Putting yourself at risk by trying to save a engine is nonsense. On Thursday when you about to carve the turkey ask your family what is worth more, you or your radial?
Happy Thanksgiving!
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:48 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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marty.jpm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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👍
Le 20 nov. 2017 19:14, "doug sapp" <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> a écrit : | Quote: | Guys,Assuming that you are adequately insured there is only one thing to be considered and that is to walk away from the wreckage with as little trauma (and drama) as possible. At this point the insurance company owns your aircraft anyway, as some one smarter than I once said: fly it as far into the wreck as possible. Putting yourself at risk by trying to save a engine is nonsense. On Thursday when you about to carve the turkey ask your family what is worth more, you or your radial?
Happy Thanksgiving!
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:48 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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The best advice I’ve received came from “Postal.”
“When the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance company.”
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open ( and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel off, and, in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way into the crash.
Finally, learn about flying the “high and low key” forced landing pattern taught by the military.
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing.
From: "JON" <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Doug forgot to mention the most important element of a forced landing based on his successful personal experience. Land between the trees, 🌲T 🌲 , allowing the wings to absorb the kinetic energy.
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Jean-Philippe Martel <marty.jpm(at)gmail.com (marty.jpm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 👍
Le 20 nov. 2017 19:14, "doug sapp" <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> a écrit : | Quote: | Guys,Assuming that you are adequately insured there is only one thing to be considered and that is to walk away from the wreckage with as little trauma (and drama) as possible. At this point the insurance company owns your aircraft anyway, as some one smarter than I once said: fly it as far into the wreck as possible. Putting yourself at risk by trying to save a engine is nonsense. On Thursday when you about to carve the turkey ask your family what is worth more, you or your radial?
Happy Thanksgiving!
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:48 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
|
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Blitz, I always chuckle at that "tree" advice because we had a student pilot do exactly that at the Kunsan AB Aeroclub when the engine quit in his Cessna 150... he did as recommended and landed between two trees... the only two trees on the Par 5 at the golf course.
From: "Byron Fox" <byronmfox(at)gmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 12:50:25 PM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
Doug forgot to mention the most important element of a forced landing based on his successful personal experience. Land between the trees, 🌲T 🌲 , allowing the wings to absorb the kinetic energy.
Blitz Fox 415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Jean-Philippe Martel <marty.jpm(at)gmail.com (marty.jpm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | 👍
Le 20 nov. 2017 19:14, "doug sapp" <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> a écrit :
| Quote: | Guys, Assuming that you are adequately insured there is only one thing to be considered and that is to walk away from the wreckage with as little trauma (and drama) as possible. At this point the insurance company owns your aircraft anyway, as some one smarter than I once said: fly it as far into the wreck as possible. Putting yourself at risk by trying to save a engine is nonsense. On Thursday when you about to carve the turkey ask your family what is worth more, you or your radial?
Happy Thanksgiving!
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 9:48 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Yak-List: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Doug, I think it should be clear that no one will risk their lives trying to save the motor. But if I have 9000 ft of pavement (or even 3000 feet) in front of me and I can properly manage my energy state (training), what are the advantages of keeping the engine running? Are you simply guaranteeing an insurance payout by doing that? It is worth mentioning, I am not talking about killing the engine coming off the perch.
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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HawkerPilot2015 agreed, it's all about energy management, and training. Your preaching to the choir son. We see time after time folks who are good sticks (just ask em) totally screwing up up a forced landing. Yet very few will ever actually avail themselves of training even if offered free of charge. Don't get me started.
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:48 AM, HawkerPilot2015 <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
Doug, I think it should be clear that no one will risk their lives trying to save the motor. But if I have 9000 ft of pavement (or even 3000 feet) in front of me and I can properly manage my energy state (training), what are the advantages of keeping the engine running? Are you simply guaranteeing an insurance payout by doing that? It is worth mentioning, I am not talking about killing the engine coming off the perch.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475328#475328
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Doug, thanks for paying for my fuel. Great session with Postal.
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:29 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | HawkerPilot2015 agreed, it's all about energy management, and training. Your preaching to the choir son. We see time after time folks who are good sticks (just ask em) totally screwing up up a forced landing. Yet very few will ever actually avail themselves of training even if offered free of charge. Don't get me started.
On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:48 AM, HawkerPilot2015 <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
Doug, I think it should be clear that no one will risk their lives trying to save the motor. But if I have 9000 ft of pavement (or even 3000 feet) in front of me and I can properly manage my energy state (training), what are the advantages of keeping the engine running? Are you simply guaranteeing an insurance payout by doing that? It is worth mentioning, I am not talking about killing the engine coming off the perch.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475328#475328
====================================
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
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jlpartington(at)reagan.co
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Insurance or not, the first goal is to be there to testify at the accident board. My son tested the tree approach - takes the fuel away from the cockpit as well.
Pooh
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:10 pm Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decide to take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the glide ratio of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an off field landing but not enough to make the airport you are basically saying you are going to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why are you wearing a chute? Not me, all my past training says give the aircraft back to the tax payers in pieces if necessary but save your roses pink. Postal is right from the moment that the brick strapped to my becomes an unpowered unsalvagable rock the canopy is going back and I’m giving this one back to Cannon.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The best advice I’ve received came from “Postal.”
“When the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance company.”
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open ( and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel off, and, in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way into the crash.
Finally, learn about flying the “high and low key” forced landing pattern taught by the military.
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing.
From: "JON" <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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rickkelleyfly(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Now that’s just stupid. Each and every situation will be different. The only thing you can rely on is good training, airmanship, and always a little luck. When was the last time any of you have practiced a slip. What is the VVI saying when the engine quits whit the prop not pulled back. What is it when the prop is pulled back. What about with gear and flaps. Have any of you turned the motor off 10,000 ft above the airport and seen what happens. I bet all of us could use a little practice. Just food for thought.
Thug
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 20, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decide to take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the glide ratio of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an off field landing but not enough to make the airport you are basically saying you are going to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why are you wearing a chute? Not me, all my past training says give the aircraft back to the tax payers in pieces if necessary but save your roses pink. Postal is right from the moment that the brick strapped to my becomes an unpowered unsalvagable rock the canopy is going back and I’m giving this one back to Cannon.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The best advice I’ve received came from “Postal.”
“When the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance company.”
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open ( and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel off, and, in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way into the crash.
Finally, learn about flying the “high and low key” forced landing pattern taught by the military.
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing.
From: "JON" <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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KingCJ6(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:11 pm Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Over my 20+ years of flying these Red Star aircraft, I don't recall anyone ever safely departing the a/c during an emergency. Did I miss something?
Dave
In a message dated 11/20/2017 7:54:50 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rickkelleyfly(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | | After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decide to take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the glide ratio of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an off field landing but not enough to make the airport you are basically saying you are going to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why are you wearing a chute? |
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:49 am Post subject: Gear up or down....forced landing |
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Doc, FWIW... I always brief that we will only bail out if the aircraft is on fire or is uncontrollable. By bailing out you introduce a whole new set of emergency variables... JB
From: "Roger Kemp" <f16viperdoc(at)me.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 8:08:55 PM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
After watching this conversation for awhile one question; when do you decide to take the silk let down? So the engine quits on this brick with the glide ratio of a rock while you have enough altitude to pick a site for an off field landing but not enough to make the airport you are basically saying you are going to try save the aircraft. If that is so then why are you wearing a chute? Not me, all my past training says give the aircraft back to the tax payers in pieces if necessary but save your roses pink. Postal is right from the moment that the brick strapped to my becomes an unpowered unsalvagable rock the canopy is going back and I’m giving this one back to Cannon.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | The best advice I’ve received came from “Postal.”
“When the engine quits, you no longer own the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance company.”
Therefore, save your butt and let the airplane be a crash cage. Canopy open ( and hope it stays open), straps tight, helmet visor down, gear up, fuel off, and, in the immortal words of Bob Hoover, fly the airplane all the way into the crash.
Finally, learn about flying the “high and low key” forced landing pattern taught by the military.
Blitz Fox 415-307-2405
On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:56 AM, JON <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Oops... should read I'm most likely going to land FLAP down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing.
From: "JON" <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)>
To: "Yak-List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:48:42 AM
Subject: Re: Gear up or down....forced landing
First, I agree with you on the gear staying up on off-field landings especially with an uncertain surface condition. We have thousands of peanut, soybean and cotton patches here in "LA" (Lower Alabama) that are normally hard enough that they might support a gear down landing, but that depends on the recent rains, famer activity, etc. In other words, I'm most likely going to down a flap down, gear up and canopy full open landing. I know from experience the flap on the CJ will support the airframe in such a case, but that was to a hard runway, so to an unimproved field the flap down is still an unknown.
Next, as for landing on a road, here's my .02 on that... as a former helicopter driver, we were taught that "All road have wires!" so always keep that in your mind should you chose to make a road landing. I'm certain you've thought about the flow of traffic... I was taught to land with traffic regardless of winds since landing against traffic is a head-on waiting to happen because drivers aren't looking up nor expecting a windshield full of airplane. Landing with traffic at least gives you an opportunity to merge...sort of anyway. Other things to consider about road landings are signs and mail boxes. A friend had an engine issue in his YAK and had to put it down on a road. Perfect landing and the roll out was going great until the wingtip caught a mailbox that was cemented into the ground. That spun the airplane around and ended up in the ditch. Fortunately no personal injury, but the airplane was hurt... but at that point who cares, right?
I agree with you on shutting down the engine, but my only hesitation would be length of runway. Once you shut the engine down and you are a glider, you are landing, so if you over shoot, which is very likely to happen or you are carrying too much energy, there is no option to go around and try again.
To close, I suppose I would worry much less about the damage to the airplane, assuming you are insured, than about bodily injury.
JB
From: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 10:47:22 AM
Subject: Gear up or down....forced landing
--> Yak-List message posted by: "HawkerPilot2015" <timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com (timsmiscaz(at)gmail.com)>
I hear of people landing gear down during a rough field landing. I am curious what the collective thinks about such a procedure. To me, if I were forced to land in a field or other "softer" than normal terrain, I would choose gear up to prevent the airplane flipping over or cartwheeling. Now, if it were hard packed desert like we have here in AZ and long enough to land on, my choice may be different. Obviously roads are just unmarked runways!
While I have your attention, lets talk about not being able to get the gear down. Plenty of videos showing failed gear landings where the engine/s are still swinging the prop/s. Again, for me, once I KNOW I have the runway made with a gear up landing, I am shutting down the engine/s. No reason to completely destroy one or two good motors because of a gear issue. What are running engine/s doing for you as skid down the runway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475310#475310
&nbs=================
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