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R2300 Wiring

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dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: R2300 Wiring

Hi Gents,

I (and my partner) are building a Sonex and using a R2300 (Revmaster) engine, which for those that may not be aware, is a VW derivative.  There have been a few questions a while back regarding the PM charging system on the R2300, some that were never answered.  One of the unanswered questions was the rather unusual wiring of the rectifier/regulator. The PM regulator has one of the AC lines tied (shunted) to the + battery terminal.  While I don't fully understand the advantages of such a regulator, I have found that Revmaster is not alone with this approach.  The AeroVee engine, which is another VW conversion, uses a very similar PM charging system and regulator wiring scheme.  



I'm posting this request for open comments, from the forum, on the electrical diagram I've generated for the Revmaster.  I've based this layout very loosely on the Aerolectric Connection's Z16 example.



The R2300 has two separate PM alternators.  The construction of the PM alternators is such that the two alternators will produce roughly the same AC waveform, in phase.  The coils that make up the dual alternators are energized with 12 Neo magnets (6 North and 6 South poles) for a 6 cycle per rev charging system.  A crude diagram of the alternator is included on the schematic (page 1).  The overvoltage and selection switching I've constructed should allow for the original Z16 "Off, Batt, Alt" selection in series with a "Left, Both, Right" selection for the alternator.  I have also drawn two capacitors, which, after I think about it, might be excessive.



The last item that might catch the forum's attention is the Essential Bus switch.  My thinking here was to be able to have an "OFF" selection for the avionics, which is the entirety of the E-bus.  The second page of the schematic is made up almost entirely of the avionics, which is all fed from the E-bus, with the exception of the servos.  I recognize that I have some "clean-up" with regard to shielded cables (that intend to use for all serial and radio connections).  



I'll take any comments on the layout that come my way.  I'm looking for constructive criticism and avoidance of obvious mistakes.



Thanks in advance for your time and feedback.



Dan Theis

Sonex 1362

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_________________
Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:28 am Post subject: Re: R2300 Wiring

It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator.  Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot?  And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too?

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Joe Gores

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:48 am Post subject: R2300 Wiring

On 3/21/2018 8:28 AM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator.  Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot?  And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too?



 --------

 Joe Gores



The Revmaster stuff has been around for a really long time. Likely since 
	


before switching regulators were affordable to anyone except the 

military & NASA.



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dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:51 am Post subject: Re: R2300 Wiring

"It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator. Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot? And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too?"



************

Those are good questions Joe.  I've asked the builder (Joe Harvoth) precisely that and not gotten any complete explanation.  My suspicion is that, like many mechanically focused shops, they (Revmaster) chose to outsource the electrical portion of their project.  They originally had an external, belt driven PM alternator and at some point integrated a design into the flywheel and added their separately powered, 8 "coil-on-plug" CDI ignition.  I think his perspective is that it works "well enough" so why mess with it.



I do know that there are quite a few examples of the R2300 with this regulator system out in the wild.  I've not heard of any issues with it.  The Thatcher CX5 uses this engine, along with the same regulator and the only change they made on the engine is to change the carb.



My thought was to run it with the original design (on the ground) and try to get enough data on current, voltage and heat, to make a reasonable decision on any needed changes.  I plan on running the engine, for the first time later this spring.



My hope was to get some feedback (like yours) from the forum on the overall plans for wiring to avoid rework.  Once it's wired and running, I can get some data.  Bob N. mentioned in an earlier post on the R2300, that the engine designer is the one to run these tests.  He suggested (and I don't disagree) that the best method would be with a mocked up system on a bench.  I tried to purchase enough hardware to achieve that but ran into a lot of resistance from Revmaster.  So the backup plan is in place, to learn as much as I can with the running engine example of the charging circuit.



Dan Theis.

Sonex 1362

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Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: R2300 Wiring

Guys:

Switching Power Supplies have their own problems.Â  The main problem being FREQUENCY.Â  Â If the wrong frequency for the switching is chosen there can be two types problems:

1 - The frequency is high enough to radiate like a transmitter either on the first harmonic or higher,

2 - Again frequency and be at high power audio frequencies which can get into the planes IF and/or audio system giving an annoying background noise.Â  Just like the whine of an Alternator or the squeal of a Strobe.

My earliestÂ recollectionÂ of Switching Power Supplies comes with the old desk top computers.Â  NASA ain't got no-ting on progress.

BarryÂ 

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>

 

 On 3/21/2018 8:28 AM, user9253 wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator.Â  Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot?Â  And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too?

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 	
 The Revmaster stuff has been around for a really long time. Likely since before switching regulators were affordable to anyone except the military & NASA.

 

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:46 am Post subject: R2300 Wiring

At 08:28 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator.  Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot?  And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too?

 	


   It's been my experience that most engine/airframe

   gurus are pretty focused on the cost/performance

   of their central discipline . . . while things-

   electric are not so well understood.



   We can only guess as to the through processes

   behind the decision . . . but indeed, a full-wave,

   series controlled rectifier/regulator is the

   most energy efficient of the simple regulators.  



 

 

   Bob . . .

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: Re: R2300 Wiring

Dan T, I see no errors in your page 1 schematic.  Having two capacitors does not hurt anything.  The fuse size for the EFIS seems small.  The low voltage monitor module is not really needed if the EFIS has that function.  If you wanted to experiment, you could replace one of the half wave regulators with one of those  John Deere clone regulators.  Then compare the temperature of the half wave regulator to the full wave one.

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Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: R2300 Wiring

 	  Quote: 	
		  Guys:



 Switching Power Supplies have their own problems. The main problem being FREQUENCY. If the wrong frequency for the switching is chosen there can be two types problems:



 1 - The frequency is high enough to radiate like a transmitter either on the first harmonic or higher,



 2 - Again frequency and be at high power audio frequencies which can get into the planes IF and/or audio system giving an annoying background noise. Just like the whine of an Alternator or the squeal of a Strobe.



 My earliestÂ recollectionÂ of Switching Power Supplies comes with the old desk top computers.Â  NASA ain't got no-ting on progress.



 Barry 	


   Yeahhh . . . sort of . . .



   The term "switching" has been loosly applied to

   a lot of architectures wherein solid state devices,

   SCRs, Triacs, FETs, PNP, NPN etc are used in an

   all or nothing operation.



   The term 'switchmode' was coined late in the game

   to differentiate the relatively high frequency

   step-up/step-down power supplies wherein energy

   was STORED on the circuit's reactances. 



   Waaayyy back when, ARC and others put the

   first transistors into vacuum tube appliances

   where the transistors were used as audio

   amplifiers and power supplies. As power supplies,

   the transistors did indeed operate as either fully

   on or completely off . . . i.e. they mimicked the

   'switch' contacts of the contemporary electro-

   mechanical vibrators used to convert DC to AC

   for elevation in transformers to supply high

   voltage for vacuum tubes. 



   These were exactly the same kind of supply used

   to generate high voltage for the strobe lights . . .

   a really whoopi-doo thing for airplanes in 1960.



   A bit later, the small engines industry perceived

   value in adding dc power supplies to small wheeled

   vehicles like scooters, riding lawn mowers, small

   motor cycles, etc. The PM alternator with a stone

   simple triggered SCR rectifier, regulator did an

   almost pretty good job of charging a battery.



   Advances in power magnetics and transistors allowed

   efficient designs at higher frequencies. It was not

   uncommon for the optimal HV power supply to run at

   1 to 4 Khz in 1970, 1 to 10 MHz or even higher is

   practical now. Increases in operating frequency

   translated directly into smaller and lighter products

   that do the same job.



   Technology used in contemporary PM rectifier/regulators

   stores no energy, it can only control it by modulating

   the duty cycle of ON-time for the 'switches' . . . which

   are silicon controlled rectifiers or TRIACS.



   The frequency of operation for virtually all of these

   products is on the order of a few hundred Hertz and

   with ripple voltages well inside the DO-170 design

   limits for aircraft DC power. So while all these devices

   do some form of 'switching' with either series or shunt

   configurations, the potential for EMC issues is

   minuscule. Efficiency is another matter but interference

   problems are nil.



   There are lots of strobe systems still flying with

   Royer oscillators operating in the audible frequencies

   and these have been known to conduct noise at the

   operating frequency onto the bus.



   Constant-current LED power supplies do have a

   potential for EMC issues. They operate in the

   MegaHertz ranges as do HID lights that were once

   feared to be problematic. I was able to test some

   donated HID fixtures in the lab and found no

   noise levels of concern.



   So just to put the 'switching' thingy in perspective,

   ALL modern appliances have solid state devices operating

   as electrical switches. But unless they operate at

   outside protected enclosures and at speeds and power

   levels of concern, the potential for electro-magnetic

   distress is small.



   For PM alternator rectifier/regulators the risk is zero.



    



 

 

   Bob . . .

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