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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: Balance Master

I have seen these advertised for years, no personal experience. 

http://balancemasters.com/aircraft.html

The engine/gearbox/prop on the FF is a Rotax 277, B-box (2.58:1) and two blade 62" Ivo, and is very smooth over 5200 rpm but terrible between 5100-4000. Performance is excellent other than the vibration. I am thinking harmonics, but who knows???

Wondering if the Balance Master would be worth trying, but before I spend the $, would like to hear from somebody who has actually tried one. 

Thanks.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:36 pm Post subject: Balance Master

Richard P/Kolbers:



My own personal thoughts only.



This is from the 277 Manual:  "The 277 is designed and tuned to operate at

6250 to 6500 rpm full load/full throttle."



Since I have been on the List it seems you have always preferred to operate

you Rotax two strokes below the power band.  I looked for rpm specs for the

power band, but could not find anything except the above.  You may be trying

to operate the engine in a zone that it was not designed for.  Below 5200

rpm is really slow for a single cylinder two stroke working as a continuous

duty engine.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: Balance Master

Richard, I started running Balance Masters balancers on my Harley Vibraglide. I run them on the engine and the clutch. While they're nothing much during acceleration once you reach speed you can actually feel the engine and transmission even out. I've run them on my 582 and my HKS. I believe they work and are well worth the money. My 2 cents after 27 years running them.



Rick Girard

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 8:35 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Richard P/Kolbers:

 

 My own personal thoughts only.

 

 This is from the 277 Manual:  "The 277 is designed and tuned to operate at

 6250 to 6500 rpm full load/full throttle."

 

 Since I have been on the List it seems you have always preferred to operate

 you Rotax two strokes below the power band.  I looked for rpm specs for the

 power band, but could not find anything except the above.  You may be trying

 to operate the engine in a zone that it was not designed for.  Below 5200

 rpm is really slow for a single cylinder two stroke working as a continuous

 duty engine.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 --

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:14 pm Post subject: Balance Master

BTW:  I have no experience with Balance Masters.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 9:05 PM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Balance Master



 

Richard, I started running Balance Masters balancers on my Harley Vibraglide. I run them on the engine and the clutch. While they're nothing much during acceleration once you reach speed you can actually feel the engine and transmission even out. I've run them on my 582 and my HKS. I believe they work and are well worth the money. My 2 cents after 27 years running them.

 



Rick Girard

 

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 8:35 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>



Richard P/Kolbers:



My own personal thoughts only.



This is from the 277 Manual:  "The 277 is designed and tuned to operate at

6250 to 6500 rpm full load/full throttle."



Since I have been on the List it seems you have always preferred to operate

you Rotax two strokes below the power band.  I looked for rpm specs for the

power band, but could not find anything except the above.  You may be trying

to operate the engine in a zone that it was not designed for.  Below 5200

rpm is really slow for a single cylinder two stroke working as a continuous

duty engine.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:38 pm Post subject: Balance Master

The Balance Master guy came to our EAA chapter meeting and made a presentation. Very impressive. He had a small electric motor driving an un-balanced disc with a weight mounted off center. It shook itself half to death on the table. He installed the balance Master device and the thing ran smoothly. We all looked at it to see if it was some sort of scam, or that he had "rigged" the demonstration, but it looked 100% legit to all of us. 



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 4/22/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:



 Subject: Balance Master

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Sunday, April 22, 2018, 3:18 PM

 

 

 Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 

 I have seen these advertised for years,

 no personal experience. 

 http://balancemasters.com/aircraft.html

 The engine/gearbox/prop on the FF is a

 Rotax 277, B-box (2.58:1) and two blade 62" Ivo, and is very

 smooth over 5200 rpm but terrible between 5100-4000.

 Performance is excellent other than the vibration. I am

 thinking harmonics, but who knows???

 Wondering if the Balance Master would

 be worth trying, but before I spend the $, would like to

 hear from somebody who has actually tried one. 

 Thanks.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is

 wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479482#479482

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

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    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

Jack B Hart

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 11
Location: Winchester, IN

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: Balance Master

Richard,

   

  Hold on a day.  I have one I will send to you after I find it.

   

  Jack B. Hart FF004

  Winchester, IN

   

   

   

   From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 6:20 PM To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Balance Master   

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>  I have seen these advertised for years, no personal experience. http://balancemasters.com/aircraft.html The engine/gearbox/prop on the FF is a Rotax 277, B-box (2.58:1) and two blade 62" Ivo, and is very smooth over 5200 rpm but terrible between 5100-4000. Performance is excellent other than the vibration. I am thinking harmonics, but who knows??? Wondering if the Balance Master would be worth trying, but before I spend the $, would like to hear from somebody who has actually tried one. Thanks.  -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0

_________________
Jack B Hart FFoo4
Winchester, IN

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Balance Master

Jack Hart: What a prince! Thank you, can't wait to try it out and see how it does.



John Hauck: you are correct, I am sure that the Austrian gnomes at Gunskirchen tuned the 277 for optimum power between 6250 and 6500, and I am sure it would happily churn away at that speed all day.  However, while 6250 - 6500 rpm is where the engine makes its rated power, that does not necessitate the engine having to be consistently operated at that rpm.



Here is a very good website of tutorials by the Australian light aircraft people - https://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/index.html

and from their page on "Engines and Propellers", 

"Although aero-engines can quite happily operate continually at their rated power, doing so is not good practice. It is uneconomical in terms of fuel efficiency, but — more importantly — it may shorten engine life, if engine operating temperatures and pressures are exceeded. Normally the maximum — and optimum — power setting for continuous cruise operation is 75% of rated power."



Then they deal specifically with the 2-stroke; "Two-strokes don't have very good volumetric efficiency, and the engine is generally efficient only in the upper 30% of its rpm and throttle opening range. In fact, ultralight two-strokes tend to run very roughly at speeds below 2500 rpm and achieve their rated power at rotational speeds in the 5500 to 6500 rpm range. The three most common two-strokes are two-cylinder models with individual cylinder displacements around 250 cc; they achieve their rated power at 6500 rpm and 75% power at around 5300 rpm."



Something else to consider is that running an engine slower than its rated power does not lug it. Once again from the recreationalflying.com tutorial page: "the power delivered by a propeller varies in accordance with rpm cubed (if everything else is kept constant)" Therefore, as rpm is decreased from the engine/propeller maximum attainable rpm, the load reduction on the engine decreases exponentially. (don't know the right technical term for a decrease cubed, but you get the idea)



Back when I was flying a Maxair Hummer with a Rotax 277, it spent most of its time around 54-5500 rpm. The 582 on my MKIII spends most of its time around 54-5500 rpm solo, 56-5700 rpm when I have a passenger. When I am in a hurry, it runs at 6200 rpm and sucks gas like it was free.



The 277 on the Firefly is still breaking in, but right now it appears that the sweet spot is going to be around 5500 rpm to run right and fly right. I have not been trying to fly it at rpm's below 5100, it is that (possibly due to still breaking in?) if it gets below 5100 down to around 4000, as in when making a descent to land, it vibrates more than it ought to. This is typically in a semi - unloaded state, throttle retarded, engine providing minimal thrust. Once it gets below 4000 rpm, the vibration goes away.



David & I have discussed changing the two blade Ivo to a three blade as a way to deal with the vibration, but only if we have to. Right now we have an 800'/min climb rate, and we would hate to have to give that up by going to a smaller diameter prop.



As always, appreciate your input, gives us all a chance to think these things through and stimulate the old grey matter.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Balance Master

Don't think I explained myself very well, as usual.



I indicated the only numbers I could find were max power.  Could not find anything for cruise power.  Was not inferring the engine needed to be operated at max power.  



Not that familiar with fixed wing aircraft, but on several of the Army helicopters I was privileged to fly there were RPM areas to stay out of.  When running up, don't hesitate in these yellow zones.  4000 to 5200 may be a similar zone with the 277.  If it was me, I'd fly Hell out of it and stay out of 4000 to 5200 except to transit that rpm.



Don't know if a 3 blade will solve your problem, but you won't know until you try.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: Balance Master

What John described is actually quite common in certified fixed wing a/c, as well. Many that are equipped with metal constant speed props have a 'yellow arc' (usually around 2000-2200 rpm on an engine with max 2700 rpm). While not a problem to transition through that range, continued operation there can result in a broken crankshaft or prop. Remember, these are FAA-blessed aircraft.



It's worth pointing out that just because you don't feel it, doesn't necessarily mean it's not there (might not be exciting the airfame so you're feeling it at higher rpms, but still out of balance). But if it's bad enough to be annoying, you probably want to stay away from that speed range; you're probably operating near the natural resonant frequency of the system and stuff can sometimes break very quickly there. 

Have you tried *dynamically* balancing the prop? It isn't cheap to pay an a&p to do it, but many EAA chapters have one of the less expensive models you can borrow or rent.

Charlie



On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:20 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 Don't think I explained myself very well, as usual.

 

 I indicated the only numbers I could find were max power.  Could not find anything for cruise power.  Was not inferring the engine needed to be operated at max power.  

 

 Not that familiar with fixed wing aircraft, but on several of the Army helicopters I was privileged to fly there were RPM areas to stay out of.  When running up, don't hesitate in these yellow zones.  4000 to 5200 may be a similar zone with the 277.  If it was me, I'd fly Hell out of it and stay out of 4000 to 5200 except to transit that rpm.

 

 Don't know if a 3 blade will solve your problem, but you won't know until you try.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 --

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Balance Master

There are several FAA certified airplanes with fixed pitch metal propellers that also have those "caution" and "avoid" ranges of RPM. The mathematics and engineering for figuring that out are way above anything I can understand, but I know that these vibration and resonance issues are very real. 



There is a famous video of Sikorsky doing "ground resonance testing" on a Chinook (I believe) where the helicopter just tears itself apart on the ground. Terrifying spectacle. John H I hope you were not the test pilot sitting in that aircraft in that video !!! I needed a change of underwear just watching the video on a computer...



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 4/23/18, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Re: Balance Master

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, April 23, 2018, 11:45 AM

 

 What John described

 is actually quite common in certified fixed wing a/c, as

 well. Many that are equipped with metal constant speed props

 have a 'yellow arc' (usually around 2000-2200 rpm on

 an engine with max 2700 rpm). While not a problem to

 transition through that range, continued operation there can

 result in a broken crankshaft or prop. Remember, these are

 FAA-blessed aircraft.

 It's worth pointing out that just because you

 don't feel it, doesn't necessarily mean it's not

 there (might not be exciting the airfame so you're

 feeling it at higher rpms, but still out of balance). But if

 it's bad enough to be annoying, you probably want to

 stay away from that speed range; you're probably

 operating near the natural resonant frequency of the system

 and stuff can sometimes break very quickly

 there. 

 Have you tried *dynamically* balancing the prop?

 It isn't cheap to pay an a&p to do it, but many EAA

 chapters have one of the less expensive models you can

 borrow or rent.

 Charlie

 

 On Mon, Apr 23, 2018

 at 1:20 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 wrote:

 

 "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 

 

 Don't think I explained myself very well, as usual.

 

 

 

 I indicated the only numbers I could find were max power. 

 Could not find anything for cruise power.  Was not

 inferring the engine needed to be operated at max power.  

 

 

 

 Not that familiar with fixed wing aircraft, but on several

 of the Army helicopters I was privileged to fly there were

 RPM areas to stay out of.  When running up, don't

 hesitate in these yellow zones.  4000 to 5200 may be a

 similar zone with the 277.  If it was me, I'd fly Hell

 out of it and stay out of 4000 to 5200 except to transit

 that rpm.

 

 

 

 Don't know if a 3 blade will solve your problem, but you

 won't know until you try.

 

 

 

 john h

 

 mkIII

 

 Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Balance Master

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FeXjhUEXlc

Or maybe this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RihcJR0zvfM

Congratulations on surviving!



 	  victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: 	
		  There are several FAA certified airplanes with fixed pitch metal propellers that also have those "caution" and "avoid" ranges of RPM. The mathematics and engineering for figuring that out are way above anything I can understand, but I know that these vibration and resonance issues are very real. 



There is a famous video of Sikorsky doing "ground resonance testing" on a Chinook (I believe) where the helicopter just tears itself apart on the ground. Terrifying spectacle. John H I hope you were not the test pilot sitting in that aircraft in that video !!! I needed a change of underwear just watching the video on a computer...



Bill Berle

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: Balance Master

No, this one:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2tHA7KmRME



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 4/23/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Balance Master

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, April 23, 2018, 4:50 PM

 

 

 Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 

 This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FeXjhUEXlc

 Or maybe this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RihcJR0zvfM

 Congratulations on surviving!

 

 

 victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:

 > There are several FAA certified

 airplanes with fixed pitch metal propellers that also have

 those "caution" and "avoid" ranges of RPM. The mathematics

 and engineering for figuring that out are way above anything

 I can understand, but I know that these vibration and

 resonance issues are very real. 

 > 

 > There is a famous video of

 Sikorsky doing "ground resonance testing" on a Chinook (I

 believe) where the helicopter just tears itself apart on the

 ground. Terrifying spectacle. John H I hope you were not the

 test pilot sitting in that aircraft in that video !!! I

 needed a change of underwear just watching the video on a

 computer...

 > 

 > Bill Berle

 > 

 

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is

 wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479503#479503

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Balance Master

Got the Balance Master in the mail over the weekend, (Thank you Jack Hart!) installed it and test flew the Firefly yesterday. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

(Climbs good for a 277, huh?)

Here is the landing, just to show I don't always bounce them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY&feature=youtu.be



Substantial improvement in the vibration level, but not in the way we expected. It is now smoother than previously at cruise rpm's, best around 5500, and the smoothness band has widened out a bit. It is now smooth down to 5000, but still vibrates a lot between 5000 and 4000, but not as much as before. In any event, it is much better at normal cruise, and a tad better in that rpm area where it stinks. The next thing we will be trying is to convert the 277 to dual ignition. Keeping the original stock ignition, and adding another one.



Back in the 80's, I had a Maxair Hummer with a 277 on it, and the 277 has a charging coil that lays directly beneath the ignition source coil inside the magneto. The normal ignition relys on points, but years ago, small engines could replace the points and condenser with a small solid state device called an Atom. It is about the size of a postage stamp, and acts like an ignition points device. 



Got a friend with a machine shop to weld up a place on the hemispherical dome of the 277 head, which I then milled flat and tapped for a B8ES plug, added a small coil, and wired the whole mess up. Details are in the March 1990 EAA Experimenter magazine.



Anyway, it worked great, and also  - unlike the points ignition - the Atom has an advance and retard function. Which had the effect of causing the 277 to idle a lot smoother. And might also have an effect on the vibration level at lower power settings. But if not, it is still always nice to have dual ignition.



So now I will be calling some of the snowmobile places up Nawth to see if I can find a 277 head to experiment on. But that will be a topic for a different thread.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:22 pm Post subject: Balance Master

  Very nice, Richard.  What is the stall speed on that?



Try here for parts:  http://alssnowmobile.com/



                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Tarboro, NC

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 4/30/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Balance Master

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, April 30, 2018, 5:09 PM

 

 

 Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 

 Got the Balance Master in the mail over

 the weekend, (Thank you Jack Hart!) installed it and test

 flew the Firefly yesterday. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

 (Climbs good for a 277, huh?)

 Here is the landing, just to show I

 don't always bounce them:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY&feature=youtu.be

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Balance Master

Richard, if you should decide that a little more power might be nice? I have a nice little Rotax 377 w/ 2:58 gearbox with approximately 80 total hours and a new 66X28” Tennessee propeller with 10 hours. I flew the engine for 50+ hours and the propeller for 10 last season. Lots of extras included. For sale. Email me if your interested. It’s available actually to anyone on the Kolb list.

Have a great day! George 

George Helton 

Firestar FS100, 2702 Hirth 

14GDH

gdhelton(at)gmail.com



Do not archive.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 30, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Got the Balance Master in the mail over the weekend, (Thank you Jack Hart!) installed it and test flew the Firefly yesterday. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

 (Climbs good for a 277, huh?)

 Here is the landing, just to show I don't always bounce them:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY&feature=youtu.be

 

 Substantial improvement in the vibration level, but not in the way we expected. It is now smoother than previously at cruise rpm's, best around 5500, and the smoothness band has widened out a bit. It is now smooth down to 5000, but still vibrates a lot between 5000 and 4000, but not as much as before. In any event, it is much better at normal cruise, and a tad better in that rpm area where it stinks. The next thing we will be trying is to convert the 277 to dual ignition. 

 

 Back in the 80's, I had a Maxair Hummer with a 277 on it, and the 277 has a charging coil that lays directly beneath the ignition source coil inside the magneto. The normal ignition relys on points, but years ago, small engines could replace the points and condenser with a small solid state device called an Atom. It is about the size of a postage stamp, and acts like an ignition points device. 

 

 Got a friend with a machine shop to weld up a place on the hemispherical dome of the 277 head, which I then milled flat and tapped for a B8ES plug, added a small coil, and wired the whole mess up. Details are in the March 1990 EAA Experimenter magazine.

 

 Anyway, it worked great, and also  - unlike the points ignition - the Atom has an advance and retard function. Which had the effect of causing the 277 to idle a lot smoother. And might also have an effect on the vibration level at lower power settings. But if not, it is still always nice to have dual ignition.

 

 So now I will be calling some of the snowmobile places up Nawth to see if I can find a 277 head to experiment on. But that will be a topic for a different thread.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479734#479734

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Balance Master

Stall speed (indicated) is currently between 30-35 indicated. The airspeed indicator reads about 5 mph fast at 55, and needs to be calibrated, so the real answer is  - I don't know. Using the FAA's data sheets, it meets 103 specs, so  - yeah - it is pretty slow. <Grin> We have a set of VG's from StolSpeed sitting on the work bench, but they have not yet been installed. Waiting for the weather to warm up, so that the adhesive will stick better. That should buy us another 4-7 mph, will report on that when we get to it.



Thanks for the offer of the 377, it would probably be smoother, but we are currently barely legal as a Gen-U-Wine Part 103 legal U/L, a 377 would totally blow that out of the water. (I have no idea how the Kolb Factory makes legal weight with a 447, but that is none of my business...)



Right now, aside from trying to get the vibration on power-off descent  to diminish, we are very happy with the 277, it burns a bit less than 2 gph, and has great performance. Once we put dual ignition on it, we will like it even better. 



If we were to change it, we would probably go with one of the powered parachute engines, lose about 20 - 30 pounds of weight, and get WAY better fuel economy. 



Something that you have to experience to appreciate, is that lighter really is better. Once you fly a really light Kolb, there is something about it that is really unique. Reminds me of flying the Hummer back in the 80's. If the wind is blowing and it is likely to be trashy, drag out the MKIII, add a passenger, and that works really well. In trashy air, weight is your friend.



But if it is early in the morning, or late in the afternoon, and it is glass smooth, drag out the Firefly, and go fly it. As Beauford used to say, it really is a "tissue plane." Still a tough-as-nails Kolb, and turbulence is not going to hurt it, but it floats and flits around. A very different experience, and once you learn to trust it, it is a good ride.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:29 pm Post subject: Balance Master

To me, a Firefly flies better in wind and turbulence than a FS.  Looks like

your airplane is more FS, with the FS wings, than Firefly.  The Firefly

fuselage has a lot of FS in it.  Been a long time since I have flown a FF,

but I still remember the winds at Lakeland and how well the FF handled them.

Only time the wind bothered me in the FF was when we were encountering

really stiff rollers of the trees just before touchdown.  I did run out of

aileron once.  It got my attention when the stick hit the aileron stop, but

I didn't crash.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Balance Master

John said "To me, a Firefly flies better in wind and turbulence than a FS. Looks like your airplane is more FS, with the FS wings, than Firefly."



That's exactly right. Original Firestar 5 rib wings with a Firefly fuselage. Which poses an interesting idea - after I get a few more hours in this version, and get it really firm in my mind how this bird flies, it would be fun to fly a standard short winged Firefly and compare the difference. Might motivate us to whack a couple feet off the end of these old wings! Or maybe not - we might discover that with the short wings and a 277, we have a climb rate like a Cessna 150 on a hot day. 



And meanwhile -if we have a reason to go fly when it might be windy or turbulent, I have a MKIII and David has an Aircam and a Stingsport. Yeah - maybe we'll leave well enough alone.  Maybe I am getting old enough not to always need to stay OCD about optimizing everything. Maybe I'll learn to just be thankful for what I have and live with whatever shortcomings that entails. Maybe...



Meanwhile, John: or Jack Hart: if you guys are ever in the area, I would be honored to have you take the Firefly up and see what ya think.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Balance Master

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 Got the Balance Master in the mail over the weekend, (Thank you Jack Hart!) installed it and test flew the Firefly yesterday. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

 (Climbs good for a 277, huh?)

 Here is the landing, just to show I don't always bounce them:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY&feature=youtu.be

 

 Substantial improvement in the vibration level, but not in the way we expected. It is now smoother than previously at cruise rpm's, best around 5500, and the smoothness band has widened out a bit. It is now smooth down to 5000, but still vibrates a lot between 5000 and 4000, but not as much as before. In any event, it is much better at normal cruise, and a tad better in that rpm area where it stinks. The next thing we will be trying is to convert the 277 to dual ignition. 

 

 Back in the 80's, I had a Maxair Hummer with a 277 on it, and the 277 has a charging coil that lays directly beneath the ignition source coil inside the magneto. The normal ignition relys on points, but years ago, small engines could replace the points and condenser with a small solid state device called an Atom. It is about the size of a postage stamp, and acts like an ignition points device. 

 

 Got a friend with a machine shop to weld up a place on the hemispherical dome of the 277 head, which I then milled flat and tapped for a B8ES plug, added a small coil, and wired the whole mess up. Details are in the March 1990 EAA Experimenter magazine.

 

 Anyway, it worked great, and also  - unlike the points ignition - the Atom has an advance and retard function. Which had the effect of causing the 277 to idle a lot smoother. And might also have an effect on the vibration level at lower power settings. But if not, it is still always nice to have dual ignition.

 

 So now I will be calling some of the snowmobile places up Nawth to see if I can find a 277 head to experiment on. But that will be a topic for a different thread.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

	




Hi Richard,

Congrats on getting such impressive performance. 

Your mention of the Atom points replacement module caught my eye. Is this it?

https://pickersyard.weebly.com/atom-universal-electronic-ignition-module.html

If so, I think I have a couple of similar units (green ones) lying around from my father's stash of lawn mower parts. I've been tempted to try mounting them in the Slick mags on the Lyc in my RV-4.   Any idea if there's something similar available today for the old points-ignition 503 engine?  I'd love to get rid of the points in my 503, but the multi-hundred$ CD upgrade is hard to justify.

Thanks,

Charlie

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Balance Master

Yep, that's the one. As I understand it, different colors have different spark lead/retard features, but are otherwise pretty much the same. 

Don't have time to do a good reply right now, but looking at the older 503 magneto diagram, the 503 would be a good candidate for dual ignition. Keep the points and add the atom. All you would need to get would be the dual plug heads (assuming they bolt on)  and a couple of coils.



Details later.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

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