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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

Sunday after church, Dave called and asked me to bring the Firefly over to his place that evening, sounded like a great idea. Took off at 5:30, beautiful day, light bumps, Firefly was flying great. Then the engine quit - at the worst possible place, and Big Dummy Pike was flying too low to make it to anywhere other than a giant blackberry patch on the side of a hill. Only got one picture of the aftermath, the guy in the picture lived just over the hill and came to help. Got it loaded on the trailer and home by 9:15 that night.



Piston was seized in two places, I am thinking that using a Free Air 277 in the pusher configuration is a bad idea. Since I have to taxi uphill before takeoff, it probably gets the engine too hot and then you have to heat it up even more when you takeoff. Or something like that. The plug looks good, the EGT was staying between 1050 & 1100, fuel was fresh & had the right amount/kind of oil, so - who knows?



Bent the gear a little, we straightened them today. Bent the fuselage forward tubes a little, will cut off some fabric and straighten them tomorrow. Then will need to patch a few cracks in the nose fairing.



Oh well, it actually turned out pretty good, I always ask the Lord to protect me prior to each flight, and if I had not had my left hand still wrapped around the throttle lever (like that was going to do any good!) I wouldn't have even got a scratch. Instead, the back side of my left hand found the blackberry bushes immediately upon arrival... ate me up!



What was really funny, I had a Dr. appointment Monday morning with my regular family Dr. that I have had for 25 years, he came in, took one look at my left hand, and said "What have you done now?" 

Me: "I landed the ultralight airplane in a blackberry patch."

Him: "Why did you do that?" We had a good time...

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Been there, done that myself- three times to date. Like you, the only time I got hurt was when I held onto the throttle while in the process of "crash landing". Mine consisted of a sprained middle finger. Apparently your finger needs to be pointing somewhere else when hanging upside down. Actually looks pretty good for what happened. Pride always takes the worst hit. Hang in there.  And watch out for those nasty throttles.Larry

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 Sunday after church, Dave called and asked me to bring the Firefly over to his place that evening, sounded like a great idea. Took off at 5:30, beautiful day, light bumps, Firefly was flying great. Then the engine quit - at the worst possible place, and Big Dummy Pike was flying too low to make it to anywhere other than a giant blackberry patch on the side of a hill. Only got one picture of the aftermath, the guy in the picture lived just over the hill and came to help. Got it loaded on the trailer and home by 9:15 that night.

 

 Piston was seized in two places, I am thinking that using a Free Air 277 in the pusher configuration is a bad idea. Since I have to taxi uphill before takeoff, it probably gets the engine too hot and then you have to heat it up even more when you takeoff. Or something like that. The plug looks good, the EGT was staying between 1050 & 1100, fuel was fresh & had the right amount/kind of oil, so - who knows?

 

 Bent the gear a little, we straightened them today. Bent the fuselage forward tubes a little, will cut off some fabric and straighten them tomorrow. Then will need to patch a few cracks in the nose fairing.

 

 Oh well, it actually turned out pretty good, I always ask the Lord to protect me prior to each flight, and if I had not had my left hand still wrapped around the throttle lever (like that was going to do any good!) I wouldn't have even got a scratch. Instead, the back side of my left hand found the blackberry bushes immediately upon arrival... ate me up!

 

 What was really funny, I had a Dr. appointment Monday morning with my regular family Dr. that I have had for 25 years, he came in, took one look at my left hand, and said "What have you done now?" 

 Me: "I landed the ultralight airplane in a blackberry patch."

 Him: "Why did you do that?" We had a good time...  [Laughing]

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:27 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

Hey Richard, I’m just happy that you’re ok. Airplanes can always be repaired or replaced. I’m glad you walked away. Free-air may work fine on tractor drives, but questionable on pushers. I seized a brand new 377 many years ago. Fortunately I was at 2000ft AGL right after takeoff and easily glided at to the airpark. Psalms 19:1George H.

Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 

14GDH

Mesick, Michigan 

gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 10, 2018, at 7:38 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Been there, done that myself- three times to date. Like you, the only time I got hurt was when I held onto the throttle while in the process of "crash landing". Mine consisted of a sprained middle finger. Apparently your finger needs to be pointing somewhere else when hanging upside down. Actually looks pretty good for what happened. Pride always takes the worst hit. Hang in there.  And watch out for those nasty throttles.Larry

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 Sunday after church, Dave called and asked me to bring the Firefly over to his place that evening, sounded like a great idea. Took off at 5:30, beautiful day, light bumps, Firefly was flying great. Then the engine quit - at the worst possible place, and Big Dummy Pike was flying too low to make it to anywhere other than a giant blackberry patch on the side of a hill. Only got one picture of the aftermath, the guy in the picture lived just over the hill and came to help. Got it loaded on the trailer and home by 9:15 that night.

 

 Piston was seized in two places, I am thinking that using a Free Air 277 in the pusher configuration is a bad idea. Since I have to taxi uphill before takeoff, it probably gets the engine too hot and then you have to heat it up even more when you takeoff. Or something like that. The plug looks good, the EGT was staying between 1050 & 1100, fuel was fresh & had the right amount/kind of oil, so - who knows?

 

 Bent the gear a little, we straightened them today. Bent the fuselage forward tubes a little, will cut off some fabric and straighten them tomorrow. Then will need to patch a few cracks in the nose fairing.

 

 Oh well, it actually turned out pretty good, I always ask the Lord to protect me prior to each flight, and if I had not had my left hand still wrapped around the throttle lever (like that was going to do any good!) I wouldn't have even got a scratch. Instead, the back side of my left hand found the blackberry bushes immediately upon arrival... ate me up!

 

 What was really funny, I had a Dr. appointment Monday morning with my regular family Dr. that I have had for 25 years, he came in, took one look at my left hand, and said "What have you done now?" 

 Me: "I landed the ultralight airplane in a blackberry patch."

 Him: "Why did you do that?" We had a good time...  [Laughing]

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481531#481531

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/20180708_200133_medium_567.jpg

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 http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1060866_medium_154.jpeg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1060867_medium_184.jpeg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1060868_medium_189.jpeg

 

 

 

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The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:36 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

4130 tubing did what it was supposed to do, protected the pilot.  Had it

been aluminum it may have been a different story and done some damage to the

pilot.  You did a good job.  Glad you have no more injuries than some briar

scratches.



Was that the intake or exhaust port in the photo?  If it is the exhaust

port, I would venture to say you were running way too lean.  I think you

should show soot and carbon, a little black and some brown on the piston and

the exhaust port.  Through all these years I have come to realize that our

ultralight instruments are not precision instruments and not instantaneous.

I'd be more inclined to go with carb set up the way it comes from the

factory, prop correctly, and forget about the EGT gauge.  Usually you never

get a warning until after the two stroke has seized.  Only takes a micro

second when that slight film of oil breaks and the seizure takes place.

Fuel cools and oil lubricates.



I have also heard free air two strokes don't cool well on pushers.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama - Remembering the interesting days of two strokes and Kolbs.





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Seized upon some blackberries...

Thanks John, I could not remember so I went down and looked at it, it seized on both the intake and exhaust side, but I noticed something just now that did not register earlier: (a lot of things did not register earlier - I got overheated working on it today and the brain was in slow motion) there is a vertical gouge on the cylinder on the intake side caused by the top rings at the point where they meet. I will pull them off tomorrow and check for end gap. 



The engine came with an invoice showing a fresh overhaul from Lockwood several years ago, and had (supposedly) never been run. I guess I should have pulled the top end off and checked it, but did not.



It is still a little early for much carbon or soot, only got about 12 hours on it. And Phillips Injex (which I prefer to Pennzoil) is not near as sooty and dirty as Pennzoil. It is jetted almost exactly as the factory calls for, the needle is 1 slot richer than spec.



We are in complete agreement on setting up an engine; jet to factory specs, set the prop to just nudge red line in level flight at full throttle, and use the egt to monitor things.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

IIRC each ring has a stop pin to keep the rings from rotating.  Hopefully,

the gap was not in line with the intake or exhaust port.



Many years ago a well known racing engine builder, Bobby Norwood,

Montgomery, AL, did all my ROTAX engine machine work.  Once I asked him how

to get the two stroke to burn cleaner, I was concerned with the soot and

carbon on the top of the pistons.  He told me that was good, in that it

provided a thermal barrier and kept the pistons cooler.  Never doubted his

word or did any research on the subject.  After that I never worried about a

little carbon on the piston.



Might want to mic the piston and cylinder to insure they are round and not

oval. 



Another thing I just noticed on the engine pic.  I don't think the ports

were chamfered.  If ports are not chamfered it leaves a sharp edge to catch

a ring or might even cause a break down in that micro coating of oil.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

robpen5557(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:00 am Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

Glad your or the plane are fine.   Thanks for sharing.

Robert Lobdell

Waskom, Texas



Our goal as proficient Pilots is using superior planning to avoid situations which require superior skill.  



[quote] On Jul 10, 2018, at 7:35 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 4130 tubing did what it was supposed to do, protected the pilot.  Had it

 been aluminum it may have been a different story and done some damage to the

 pilot.  You did a good job.  Glad you have no more injuries than some briar

 scratches.

 

 Was that the intake or exhaust port in the photo?  If it is the exhaust

 port, I would venture to say you were running way too lean.  I think you

 should show soot and carbon, a little black and some brown on the piston and

 the exhaust port.  Through all these years I have come to realize that our

 ultralight instruments are not precision instruments and not instantaneous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Seized upon some blackberries...

The top edge of the intake port was not chamfered after the rebore, it is sharp enough to shave with, and that is apparently where the seizure started. The seizure is at the point where the ring locator pins are situated, and although it does not really show in the picture, there is a hint of silver along that edge, apparently that is a minute amount of aluminum that was shaved from off the seized area. Once the seizure began, the piston then apparently begin to seize on the opposite (exhaust) side due to the increased pressure on the intake side of the piston from lack of clearance. 



The bottom side of the intake port was chamfered, as are both the top and bottom of the exhaust port. None of the transfer ports were chamfered, all of them are extremely sharp. And that might be OK, they are small and not near any ring ends. Need to do some more research on that one.



I think in the future when I get an engine back from the shop, it might be a good idea to pull the head off and take a look inside before it goes back on the airplane...

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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:43 am Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

When the engine is running the rings are trying to expand in the cylinder,

especially the Dykes ring.  I wouldn't take a chance on not chamfering all

the ports.  Might save a lot of grief.



Let us know what you turn up in your research.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

undoctor(at)rcn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

Hello Pastor Pike,



I didn't read your original post, so I'm hoping you did better with the 

blackberries than I did with the ready-to-harvest soybeans.  I believed 

the soybeans to be about 6 - 7" high looking from above, but they were 

about 30" high with stems like thousands of ropes.  Ended upside down 

when landing gear entered into the tangles of stems.



My engine siezed first takeoff after overhaul at about 500'.  The nature 

of the strip I flew out of (power lines near threshold, tall trees 

either side, etc.) required careful pilotage on normal landings, and 

doing a 180 and trying to land back at the strip was out of the 

question.  I sold the plane without investigating the cause of the 

seizure and have since wished I didn't.  I was so discouraged crashing 

the plane I loved to fly that I almost couldn't look at the wreckage.



On a more pleasant subject, there may be interest list-wide on this.  A 

long while back posting on a landing gear thread, I mentioned that 

according to a friend, the strength of a steel tube may be greater than 

a solid bar, depending upon the wall thickness.  I felt a bit foolish 

when a number of Kolbers responded that steel tubing doesn't have 

surface tension and thought I had faith where it didn't belong.



Well, guys, Frank knows a lot about everything from St. Paul's journeys 

and imprisonment, to MSM, the byproduct of wood processing and what MSM 

stands for, to VW bug engines are square, etc., although he can be 

overbearing at times.  But it appears Frank may have been correct. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14860  He also is a Tesla, the man, 

advocate and thinks of Einstein as a government shill.  I tend to agree.



Good to read your posts from time to time.  I hope I'll have another 

Kolb - a 4 stroke! - soon.   BTW, Rev. Pike, we're practically neighbors 

now.  I recently bought a cabin in Wears Valley, just a tad SW of you.  

If anyone would like a wonderful vacation in the Smokies, go to  

beartootin.com  click on 2 bedroom and book your stay at A Slice of 

Heaven.  I spent a week there in April right after I bought it and 

that's how I came up with the name.



Be safe everyone, and I hope to see some of you in the sky soon.



Dave Kulp



Bethlehem, PA

On 7/11/2018 2:40 PM, John Hauck wrote:

[quote] 



 When the engine is running the rings are trying to expand in the cylinder,

 especially the Dykes ring.  I wouldn't take a chance on not chamfering all

 the ports.  Might save a lot of grief.



 Let us know what you turn up in your research.



 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama





 --

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Seized upon some blackberries...

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  When the engine is running the rings are trying to expand in the cylinder,

especially the Dykes ring.  I wouldn't take a chance on not chamfering all

the ports.  Might save a lot of grief.

Let us know what you turn up in your research.

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

-- 	




Disclaimer: there is a boatload of videos on chamfering cylinder walls on YouTube; some seem to be pretty professional, some not so much. Spent the afternoon watching many of them. Sigh... But then thinking my way through, it seems to be pretty logical, here is how I see it: if you use a Dremel tool, use a very fine stone or fine diamond bit, because all you want to do is take off the sharp edge where the port transitions into the cylinder wall and turn it into a smooth radius. Some of the videos show some good techniques on how to do this. Seek and ye shall find...



Your goal is to enable the ring to ease into the gap caused by the port and then ease back out as gently and as smoothly as possible. So you work your chamfering to include all the sides, top and the bottom of the port. Picture in your mind where the ring is going to want to push out, and then be put back in, and bevel as necessary.



Apparently a little bit goes a long way. A light touch with a fine stone or diamond bit is plenty, followed by a careful application of a strip of emery cloth through the port and into the cylinder w/o touching the cylinder walls, with frequent rinsing with kerosene or mineral spirits to keep it all really clean. Use the emery cloth to take off any sharp edges or undesirable metal that the stone/diamond burr leaves. 



The goal is not to make the port any bigger because that changes the valve timing, but just to ease the rings expanding into the port and back out without any stress or damage. Apparently this is true whether you are working with the larger intake and exhaust ports, or the smaller transfer ports.



Worth what ya paid fer it...

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Seized upon some blackberries...

A carbide burr in a die grinder does a quick and easy job.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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