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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Rick Nielsen wrote: Do you like rebuilding airplanes?



Well I sure don't want to rebuild this one just yet. Took two years just to do a "simple" engine swap because of a million little details.



I am in 100% agreement that this is a dangerous moment. Just enough time in the airplane to know it is manageable, not enough time to know where it will bite you.



The only thing I have in my favor (in the area of steep landing approaches) is that I have a fair amount of experience flying gliders with powerful "dive brakes", which allowed a very steep approach. This is of course not an exact match for a Kolb UL style airplane, but it is a lot closer than the average long shallow approach training they give you in a Cherokee or 172.



So my job at this stage will be to fly safely, don't do anything stupid, but still begin to explore and learn how the airplane flies at different speeds and power settings.



As far as the aileron heaviness issue, I have gone back to the archives and found the old posts from "Jet Pilot" regarding the boosters/spades mounted on the ailerons. It appears that Kolb Aircraft (Dennis) built these spade mounts to rivet onto the aileron, and that Jet Pilot put 8 by 9 inch plates on these mounts. From everyting I had read, he indicated that they worked well, and did not "snatch" the stick out of his hands or cause any other significant problem.



Once again, I am NOT looking for an aerobatic aircraft. I am NOT going to go around pretending to be a Top Gun combat pilot dogfighting with other aircraft. But where I live we do have crosswinds, and gusts, and eddy currents from wind flowing around hangars or trees. We do have people groundloop their Cubs and T-crafts because of this. When a 15 knot crosswind represents 50% of the landing speed of the aircraft, you do not want to run out of control to fight back against a gust, or be unable to keep a wingtip off the ground.



Can anyone here on the Kolb list tell me anything positive or negative regarding experimenting with the spades ? Does anybody here know Jet Pilot who did experiment with the spades and found them to be useful?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Let me address drooping ailerons or raising ailerons to adjust pitch trim.  The amount of lowering or raising the ailerons is minute.  Maybe one or two turns of the rod end bearing.  Doubt we can measure the induced drag by changing aileron  rigging that much.  Might even gain some depending on which way you go..

 

Our Kolbs are designed to be one big mass of induced drag.  They were not designed to go fast, to be sleek and clean aerodynamically.  That's why they don't fly really fast no matter how much power you put on them.  All three of my Kolbs, US, FS, MKIII, have an effective top speed, then they hit an invisible wall.  With more power it will fly a little faster, but it is really loud and uncomfortable.  Not where the Kolbs want to fly.

 

I've had a chance over the years to fly hours and days on long cross country flights with friends.  During those long days we fly close formation, chase coyotes and antelopes, fly with our wheels nearly touching the grass.  Gave me plenty time to observe other Kolbs in flight.  For the most part rudder and elevators are straight and level.  My elevators are drooped a tad.  I see no difference reference drag from trim tabs or forced trim, and both are minute.

 

I wouldn't want to try and cruise with flaps drooped on a MKIII.  You'd have a Hell of a lot of pitch down and drag.  Flaps are very effective for landing in short, rough fields and unimproved terrain.  They aid in increased decent rate and slowing air speed.  They help slow us down when we flare for landing and roll out.

 

I seldom use flaps for takeoff, but when I do I normally start my roll clean, then pop full flaps as I go through 30 mph.  Soon as I am off the ground and gain a tad of airspeed I ease the flaps back up.

 

Guess I'm putting down words as my mind rambles.  I think my bottom line is three trim tabs to tweak the trim of you Kolb is negligible and you won't be able to detect the difference in airspeed between no tabs and with tabs.

 

Hope ya'll can decipher my wonderings.

 

I may be entirely wrong.  I am definitely not an aerodynamic engineer and don't want to be one.  This is how I think a few things work for me.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen

Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 2:23 PM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight



 

We have been dancing around this subject for a few years so it seems this is a good time to explain why I don't like to use trim tabs any more than necessary.



 



Induced drag is the drag you get when you have the airplane do something useful like throwing air at the ground to make lift. Flaps are a good example of how their deployment effects an airplane and it is easy to understand how they work. Depending on the amount of deployment they produce different amounts of drag and lift. With just a bit of deployment they produce more lift than induced drag and at full deployment mostly induced drag and little lift. But flaps and drooped ailerons aren't very efficient in producing lift without inducing a higher amount of induced drag than say a wing. A side effect of flaps on a Kolb airplane is that it shifts the center of lift aft causing a nose down trim change. Most people will not cruise with their flaps down because it slows your plane down. Some people have even found that raising their flaps and ailerons a bit will add speed. There is also a very short moment arm for changing pitch trim with ailerons as apposed to the tail where the moment arm is much longer. The induce drag would be an order of magnitude greater with ailerons changing pitch trim than at the tail. So why would you fly in cruse with your ailerons drooped?



 



Bill has an airplane that pitches down in cruise. The horizontal stabilizer is pulling the tail down too much so Bill has to push the elevators down to compensate. In other words his horizontal stabilizer is throwing air up and the elevators are throwing air down to keep the plane level. The horizontal stabilizer and the elevators are causing wasted induced drag while they are fighting each other. Adding a trim tab to the elevators adds even more induced drag as it is throwing air up to lower the elevators. If you have a 1.5 to 2 passenger Kolb you will have a trim spring and you will need it for passenger flying. If you fly with a passenger all the time rig your plane for the passenger and may be reverse the trim spring.



 



So just learned Steven Green designed the universal joint adjuster, not to surprised he is a very smart guy. I used Steven's adjusters to get my MKIIIC flying level flying solo in cruise with no control pressure tabs or bungee. More than 90% of my flying is solo so that is where I set my all my rigging. With a passenger I need a small amount left aileron pressure but never enough to be tiring. Never noticed any aileron pressure when loaded with a aux fuel tank and a weeks camping gear. 



 



The rudder trim is a problem. As John says moving the vertical stabilizer doesn't help. I moved mine and it didn't noticeably help, had to put a trim tab on the rudder but the vertical stabilizer is still moved off center (can't hurt).



 



As John says the trim changes depending on the load. Set your rigging to fly as level as you can get it in your normal cruise loading. Don't rig your plane to fight other parts of your plane to fly right. 



 



Rick Neilsen



Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



 



 

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:55 PM John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I don't know of anyone, Kolb Aircraft included, that can build a Kolb that is rigged perfectly first time around.  If a builder does end up with a perfectly rigged Kolb on his first try, it is probably a lot of luck involved.  So many variables affect the rigging on a Kolb when it is being built, covered, and finished.

 

I'm very limited in my knowledge of factory built GA aircraft.  The ones I flew had pitch, roll, and yaw trim.  It is necessary to set up the aircraft to fly without adverse pressure on the stick.  Pilot won't last long on a long cross country unless he can fly without unwanted pressure on the stick and rudder pedals to keep the aircraft in trim.

 

Passengers, cargo, fuel all play a big role in aircraft trim.  Constantly changing.

 

My MKIII has a very simple bungee trim for roll, forced trim for pitch (never needed anything but nose up trim), and a very large rudder trim tab for yaw.  Proud to say my system works just as good as "store bought".

 

If your trim problems are exaggerated, you probably have a more serious rigging problem that requires some rerigging.  Changing the incidence of a wing with the part that Steven Green designed many years ago could be called trim and/or rerigging.  Same for changing the incidence of the horizontal stabilizer.

 

I believe drooping the ailerons, trim tabs, changing incidence of wing and horizontal stabilizer, are rerigging and trimming.  They are not a poor solution.  If trim tabs and forced trim were a poor solution they wouldn't use them on many aircraft (and that is a bunch of aircraft).  Our Army helicopters, many years ago, used forced trim on the cyclic.  We didn't have trim on the anti-torque pedals.  Wasn't needed because there was not that much back pressure to overcome.  We used friction to keep the collective in place.

 

Respectfully disagree with my buddy Rick N's comments below, reference trim tabs.  I believe his MKIIIs rudder trim tab works great.    If not, it should.

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen

Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 7:44 PM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight



 

Bill



 



Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up and down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options. Kolb does sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of attack to be fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best when properly rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim is the exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work but why not fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel when they aren't using control surfaces to fix rigging issues. 



 



You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow. Don't rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All it takes is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will see the ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You experience and training will kick in and will start your flair at 20-30'. With little extra airspeed, lots of drag and little inertia.......Just don't do it. Do you like rebuilding airplanes?



 



Rick Neilsen



Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>



Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.



There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet installed anything.



Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, essentially changing the "decalage" angle?  This would seem like it could be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs.



There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, model airplane servos, etc. etc.



What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, or more appropriate than others.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

 Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard

 Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>



 Plan to fly for many hours with the

 ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly

 normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,

 you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the

 aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving

 the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;

 it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become

 much lighter. 



 You will lose some aileron deflection.

 Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think

 that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.

 But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be

 able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you

 can put them back like they were. 



 In the meantime, everything that

 Stuart, John and Larry - among others  - have said is

 absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly

 just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.



 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0



 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is

 wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.





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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:29 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Bill B/Kolbers;



Homer Kolb called me his best test bed because in my early days of building and flying Kolbs I broke a lot of them.  I've flown a lot where you fly and a lot of other places that have a lot of wind and turbulence.  Never ran out of aileron or ground looped my MKIII or any other aircraft.



My feelings about spades is not to install them on my airplane.  I think the added stress on the ailerons will prove detrimental down the road.  I've never had a problem with roll control on a Kolb, except a FF with small ailerons in some terrific turbulence and rollers.  Even then I bumped the stop on one side and landed the aircraft safely.  The UL airstrip at Lakeland is notorious for high cross winds, turbulence, and a lot of stuff you cannot predict.  It will keep you busy.



If I was flying GA aircraft then jumped in a Kolb, with no Kolb experience, I'd think the ailerons needed some boost.  I fly only Kolbs and never think about what it takes to maintain roll control.  Never really had a problem keeping them right side up.



I've never seen or heard of another Kolb with spades except Jet Pilot's MKIII.  A little difficult to follow Jet Pilot's posts back then.  He seemed to be 180 degrees out from most of us unwashed, uneducated Kolbers.  Haven't heard from him in years.  I can't remember if he ever flew his MKIII to Sun and Fun.



To me it seems spades will put undue stress on the ailerons.  Wouldn't want to lose one.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

..S..N..I..P..

 

I seldom use flaps for takeoff, but when I do I normally start my roll clean, then pop full flaps as I go through 30 mph.  Soon as I am off the ground and gain a tad of airspeed I ease the flaps back up.

 



..S..N..I..P..

	


Attached is a picture of John Hauck using his flaps to "jump off the ground" at John B.'s  Nauga Field in Louisiana.  Notice his left hand on the flap handle.

Nauga Field 036a.jpg

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_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Just to be a little clearer on my flap adjustment for trim.  When I'm alone at cruse I usually use about 5 degrees of down flap for trim.  The 5 degrees is measured on the ground.  Because of hysteresis (fancy word for mechanical slop) and aerodynamic loading I suspect at cruse the flap is only 2 or 3 degrees down, if that.  I'm sure there is a drag penalty but it's comfortable to fly and I don't care if it takes me an extra minute or so to fly 60 miles.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:23 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Rex R got that right.



I can take my flap lever out of the detent while flying.  It will seek a

position of 1/2 to 1/3 of the way between 0 and 20 degrees.  The handle does

not move.  It has found its happy place. 



Has it increased or decreased drag in this position?



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:28 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Thanks for posting that photo, George A.  Brings back some fond memories of

days gone by.



Yep, I had just snatched the flap handle all the way down and the MKIII was

popping off the grass.  She didn't roll far before she was airborne.



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Thank you all again for continuing this discussion, I am enjoying the exchange of ideas and having new things to consider!



As regards to using the flaps for pitch trim, I have flown a type of aircraft that uses the flaps for adjusting lift, trim, and drag at various speeds. In the contest sailplanes they were essentially a primary control. However, my Firestar does not have flaps and I doubt I would ever try to install them on this aircraft. I'm a crazy tinkerer but I'm not that crazy 



As for drooping the ailerons I'm worried that this would essentially create "wash-in" or positive wing twist, which makes an aircraft more prone to having the wingtip s stall first. Established principles for safe flight characteristics show that you want the root end to stall first, with the stall progressing outward. This usually provides safe and controllable behaviopr at low speeds. Almost all of your certified light airplanes have a couple of degrees of nose-down twist ("wash-out") at the wingtips... Cubs, Champs, T-crafts, etc.



I must agree with John H regarding the differences between re-rigging (adjusting the "decalage" angle of the tail) versus bendable trim tabs. The difference between doing this the technically correct way... and doing it the quick and dirty way... are probably irrelevant at the speeds and drag levels that the Kolb operates with. In fairness it is technically correct that adjusting the tail angle is the "cleanest", "correct", and lowest drag way to get the airplane to fly hands off. The plain aluminum trim tab is certainly 99% as good, John H's success flying halfway around the world with plain old aluminum trim tabs certainly bears this out. 



Regarding the aileron spades / aerodynamic boosters, I have to say that it appears to me that these spades would REDUCE the stress on the aileron tube as much or more than they would create stress. The reason for this is that without the spades you are twisting the entire 12 foot long aileron and its torque tube from the root end, and applying all of the air resistance 8 or 9 feet away near the other end. The outboard half of this tube (the aileron itself)  is trying to to oppose what you are doing at the inboard end (the control horn/attachment). The more aileron deflection you put in, the more twisting force is put through this 12 foot length of tube. If you had the spades, they would be "helping" or "boosting" the ailerons to move in the SAME direction you want them to move. Not resisting or opposing the movement. So they apply the twisting force right at the aileron itself (where you want it), instead of just twisting the whole tube harder at the (wrong) inboard end.



The number of rivets attaching the control horn to the root end of the aileron tube is something like 6 or 8 if I recall. The number of rivets that Jet Pilot used to attach his spades was 2 or 3 times that, spread out over a larger area. I think that was overkill but that is what Dennis came up with. 



So as long as you have adequate space (metal) between these rivet holes it seems to me that you would not be weakening or wearing out the aileron tube any more with the spades then you already do with the original control horn. Does this make sense to anyone else besides me?



Before I experimented with anything like this I would continue to fly the aircraft as-is for a while. I haven't even figured out at what speeds the ailerons get heavy enough to be an annoyance.

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:32 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

This spade thing may be like VGs.  For years I was accused of not liking VGs because I didn't them installed on my airplane.  Tried to explain I didn't about VGs one way or the other.  I had no need for .  I flew 6000+ hours in Kolbs without VGs.



A couple years ago I got a set of STOL Speed VGs for wings and horizontal stabilizers from John Gilpin.  They lowered my stall speeds, gave me more control authority at slow speeds, and help cushion my full stall landings.  That said, my Kolbs flew great without VGs, but not bad having a little help at 79.  I don't fly as well today as I did a few years back



Maybe someday I would install spades, but I'll let someone else do the experimentation and testing.  When they have all the bugs ironed, I might give'em a shot.  



Homer Kolb's wing stalls inboard first, then outboard.  Super forgiving.  Gentle stall.  Will mush with full with full control.  Doubt you will twist the wing drooping the ailerons or flaps, especially the MKIII wing.



Slow down and the ailerons free up so you can slap the stick stop to stop.  I don't know what airspeed they start getting stiff, probably over 50 mph.  50 mph is a good maneuver speed for a FS.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:27 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

That makes sense, from what I have read John H has done more than his share of testing and development over 30+ years of association with the Kolb design. 



Jet Pilot has done some spade testing years ago, and found the spades to be promising. So if my soon-to-be Kolb experience leads me to explore the possibility of spades to lighten the stick force, then I will gladly step up to the plate and experiment with them. 



Considering that the Kolb community has shared many years of experience and assistance with me, doing this testing and sharing whatever data or results are gained  is the least I could do. I would have an obligation to "put my aluminum where my mouth is"  



Bill Berle

Firestar 2 / HKS

Los Angeles, CA



 

 Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 This spade thing may be like VGs. For years I was accused of not liking VGs because I didn't them installed on my airplane.  Tried to explain I

 didn't about VGs one way or the other.  I had no need for .  I flew 6000+ hours in Kolbs without VGs.

 

 A couple years ago I got a set of STOL Speed VGs for wings and horizontal stabilizers from John Gilpin.  They lowered my stall speeds, gave me more control authority at slow speeds, and help cushion my full stall landings.  That said, my Kolbs flew great without VGs, but not bad having a little help at 79.  I don't fly as well today as I did a few years back

 

 Maybe someday I would install spades, but I'll let someone else do the experimentation and testing.  When they have all the bugs ironed, I might give'em a shot.  

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

baberdk

Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

 	  Quote: 	
		  The induce drag would be an order of magnitude greater with       ailerons changing pitch trim than at the tail. So why would you fly in       cruse with your ailerons drooped? 	






On the Challenger the seating is tandem and a passenger really really affected the trim. The ailerons would  go up and down together and are called flaperons (flaps and ailerons). They are operated with a crank and I marked mine for just me and also for me and my wife. I would set the flaperons before take-off and would not have to re-trim in flight. I took off once without changing them for the weight shift and decided to make them operate while I flew. I put a R/C servo on them to make them electric but I ended up only setting them before I took off after that one mistake. Some of the guys would use them as air brakes on landing when we would go into short farmers fields but quit using them after we learned about each strip. It was still cool to have them.



Respectfully,

Dennis Baber

Cape Coral, Fl

baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)

Stay Curious

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight

A few thoughts on drooping the flaps/ailerons: when I redid my cabin top, I relocated the flap mechanism down a few inches, and redid the linkage in the process. You can see in the picture that I have 3 holes close together for the area of normal flight. I use the bottom one for takeoff because it droops the ailerons a couple of degrees, barely enough to affect the trim. Doesn't seem to make much difference one way or another. The middle one (of the top 3) is for normal cruise. In this hole the flaps and ailerons are at the same angle. The top one is for normal cruise when carrying a passenger. Since all of the pilot/passenger weight in a MKIII is ahead of the CG, reflexing the flaps a couple of degrees means you don't need to use as much elevator trim when carrying a passenger.



As John said, drooping or reflexing the ailerons is done in minute amounts. A little bit goes a long way, and the same is true for the flaps: moving the flap lever between these three top holes makes very little difference. Moving the flap lever down to the lower ones requires progressively a lot more up elevator trim to compensate.



The link gives a lot more details   http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg3.htm

Flp2.JPG

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:54 am Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Another great idea to steal! :-}

Thanks Richard.



Rick Girard



On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

wrote:



[quote] 



 A few thoughts on drooping the flaps/ailerons: when I redid my cabin top,

 I relocated the flap mechanism down a few inches, and redid the linkage in

 the process. You can see in the picture that I have 3 holes close together

 for the area of normal flight. I use the bottom one for takeoff because it

 droops the ailerons a couple of degrees, barely enough to affect the trim

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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight

It was a great idea and I confess I stole it from Richard a few years ago also.  I did it a little differently with a spring loaded pin in a hole to set the flaps.  see pictures.

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:42 pm Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter.



Bill Berle



On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 My understanding is  that spades are for aileron flutter.

 

 

 Respectfully,

 Dennis BaberCape Coral,

 Flbaberdk(at)gmail.com305-814-7218

 Stay

 Curious

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:26 am Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

Spades do counter balance each other but control ease is their intended function 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 9, 2018, at 12:42 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter.

 

 Bill Berle

 

 On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 My understanding is  that spades are for aileron flutter.

 

 

 Respectfully,

 Dennis BaberCape Coral,

 Flbaberdk(at)gmail.com305-814-7218

 Stay

 Curious

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:10 am Post subject: Firestar/HKS First Flight

True. Some.  But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron.



When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron.  First couple flights went well during testing.  Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter.  Snatched the stick right out of my hand.  Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter.  I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it.  Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights.



Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter.  Turbulence would set it off quickly.  I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh.  At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208.  He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85.  It was a tough flight, but we got'er done.



I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem.  I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter.  



Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter.  He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm.  A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter.  It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994.  I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time.



Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did.



My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft.  Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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