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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:34 pm Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Kolbers, I made a decision today to go ahead with most of the collective advice and consensus of the Kolb List, and I began disassembling the oil system in order to re-configure it similar to Larry C's HKS Firestar.



After speaking with John H, Larry C, and e-mail corrrespondence with several others, plus all the public discussion, I must admit that the changes I made (oil cooler venting above the wing, perhaps the exhaust pipes blocking the propeller in-flow) are very likely the cause of my aircraft's poor performance. 



So I am going to re-mount the oil cooler down lower on the cage away from the wing, and I'm going to move the oil tank lower underneath the wing, and these two things will allow me to make a full airfoil-shaped center gap seal/cover like Larry's (and most of the Rotax Kolbs).



I am also going to go back and try to install the original HKS exhaust system and muffler, to have the exhaust pipes out of the airflow path to the propeller. This will require me to make a new engine mount plate, moving the engine forward several inches. That of course will help the CG move a little forward, even though the aircraft is safely flyable at its current CG.



I have no doubt the Kolb List will thoroughly enjoy watching me eat this much crow...     



I'll will probably be down for a month or two in order to get all this done correctly.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 12:38 PM

 

 

 "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com>

 

 Well that info may save me from asking

 them about engines which they paid to have returned to the

 factory.  I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that

 day, when I bought it.  Let me know if your carbs fall

 off and you need two new ones.  I'd just like to find

 out what, if any of the components are the same as the new

 700s.  It might help me recover some of my small

 investment. Maybe I'll remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO

 metro, or a Subie conversion?  I did see a choice

 engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a

 half VW case:

 http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html

 

 more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so

 into the video).. first half good too!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:19 am Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

No crow here Bill. I would just like for you to be safe and have some fun. It is and experiment.

George H.

Firestar 

Mesick, Michigan 

gdhelton(at)gmail.com



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 31, 2018, at 2:33 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Kolbers, I made a decision today to go ahead with most of the collective advice and consensus of the Kolb List, and I began disassembling the oil system in order to re-configure it similar to Larry C's HKS Firestar.

 

 After speaking with John H, Larry C, and e-mail corrrespondence with several others, plus all the public discussion, I must admit that the changes I made (oil cooler venting above the wing, perhaps the exhaust pipes blocking the propeller in-flow) are very likely the cause of my aircraft's poor performance. 

 

 So I am going to re-mount the oil cooler down lower on the cage away from the wing, and I'm going to move the oil tank lower underneath the wing, and these two things will allow me to make a full airfoil-shaped center gap seal/cover like Larry's (and most of the Rotax Kolbs).

 

 I am also going to go back and try to install the original HKS exhaust system and muffler, to have the exhaust pipes out of the airflow path to the propeller. This will require me to make a new engine mount plate, moving the engine forward several inches. That of course will help the CG move a little forward, even though the aircraft is safely flyable at its current CG.

 

 I have no doubt the Kolb List will thoroughly enjoy watching me eat this much crow...     

 

 I'll will probably be down for a month or two in order to get all this done correctly.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Subject: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 12:38 PM

 

 

 "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com>

 

 Well that info may save me from asking

 them about engines which they paid to have returned to the

 factory.  I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that

 day, when I bought it.  Let me know if your carbs fall

 off and you need two new ones.  I'd just like to find

 out what, if any of the components are the same as the new

 700s.  It might help me recover some of my small

 investment. Maybe I'll remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO

 metro, or a Subie conversion?  I did see a choice

 engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a

 half VW case:

 http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html

 

 more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so

 into the video).. first half good too!

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 Navigator to browse

 List Un/Subscription,

 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 via the Web Forums!

     - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 Email List Wiki!

    - List Contribution Web Site -

 support!

                

     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

All we want is for you to have a good flying airplane that you enjoy. Crow? Don't even go there, because some of us will have to go with you. 



Because we originally put a free air 277 on our Firefly instead of a fan cooled, we created a number of problems for ourselves. Since Rotax hasn't made any 277 parts in probably 25 years, we had to buy two more engines to get the right parts to make one good one.



The fan cooled engine has a completely different  and much larger mag end crankcase, so we had to make up new taller motor mounts, finally got the engine mounted yesterday. Started to wire it up, and discovered why the radio wouldn't work right, so now we build a new wiring harness. Then I need to redo the pulley setup for the recoil starter, & still haven't started repairing the broken nose bowl. Need to better shock mount the panel, and make a new, bigger windshield, the old one was too small anyway.



Consequently, it will probably be November before I'm allowed to wear this shirt...

busy.jpeg

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Don't worry about any crow.  I think everybody on this list has had to rework something on their plane at one time or another.  I modified at least half a dozen things (or more) on mine.

Jerry-TS-MkII

Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Bill...

It's too bad that you are facing some rework, after already spending a lot of effort.. but like everyone else on here, I'd agree with your decision to make the changes.  And there is no one on here throwing stones.  Your topics generated a lot of thought and good idea sharing along the way.  And that may save the next guy from having a similar situation.  Will be just as interesting to know how much those changes improve the performance!



All good, 

Jerry

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Jerry, I've Liked every thing that you have contributed to this subject. You are also right that there is no castigation in every ones attempt to help Bill. Every one would just like for him to enjoy his project as much as we do ours. I understand and believe that this list is a bit different from most of them in that there is no "guru" on this one, just a bunch of guy's that are willing to help.Larry 

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 9:09 PM Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com (12flybellaire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com (12flybellaire(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Bill...

 It's too bad that you are facing some rework, after already spending a lot of effort.. but like everyone else on here, I'd agree with your decision to make the changes.  And there is no one on here throwing stones.  Your topics generated a lot of thought and good idea sharing along the way.  And that may save the next guy from having a similar situation.  Will be just as interesting to know how much those changes improve the performance!

 

 All good, 

 Jerry

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482834#482834

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





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_________________
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Jerry-TS-MkII

Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Larry,

Thanks for the compliment.  But clearly everyone qualifies for their contributions as well.  Whether it's a R/C club, or EAA group, or this forum.. there is typically some hierarchy, of those who have been around for a long time, or who post a lot.  Looking at the index numbers, there are a lot more readers than those who post replies, but that shows how much interest is generated.. sharing ideas. 



Before long, I might need to ask how much dust a Kolb can collect before the gear legs break, but hopefully I'll rectify that soon, and move forward more quickly as I continue to revive a old Twinstar.  I'm the newbie to Kolbs.. but there is some truth that airplanes are airplanes.  It really has been a wonderful life time of working on, and building lots of projects, including various planes.  So I've always felt that well learned lessons should be shared.



DIY??  "Well.. first you get 2 gallons of gumption..."  LOL



Or that other famous phrase:  The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time.  The last 10% takes ANOTHER 90% of the time!



Thanks for all of your beautiful videos!!

Jerry

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Bill

Please do these changes one at a time so you and we will know what had the largest effect.

I'm still going to bet that these changes are going to be minor. Also attempt do the changes in a way that would allow you to go back if you don't like the change.

I think the biggest thing that is making your plane slow is the increased fuselage area that the wind is seeing from the tail high and nose down attitude. It really doesn't matter who or where the change was made. As you probably know most changes have other effects and lowering the wing angle of attack and the tail may increase takeoff and landing speeds.

I used to have a muffler on my VW. Maybe my 4 into 1 system makes it quiet but I had NO increased noise at cruise throttle by just having a straight pipe system and I gained a 100 RPM on takeoff. My airplane is noisy but not from exhaust noise.

Someone suggested raising the engine, don't do that. One version of my VW MKIIIC had a high thrust line and it was dangerous. The lower thrust line the better and safer your Kolb will fly. 

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 2:36 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 Kolbers, I made a decision today to go ahead with most of the collective advice and consensus of the Kolb List, and I began disassembling the oil system in order to re-configure it similar to Larry C's HKS Firestar.

 

 After speaking with John H, Larry C, and e-mail corrrespondence with several others, plus all the public discussion, I must admit that the changes I made (oil cooler venting above the wing, perhaps the exhaust pipes blocking the propeller in-flow) are very likely the cause of my aircraft's poor performance. 

 

 So I am going to re-mount the oil cooler down lower on the cage away from the wing, and I'm going to move the oil tank lower underneath the wing, and these two things will allow me to make a full airfoil-shaped center gap seal/cover like Larry's (and most of the Rotax Kolbs).

 

 I am also going to go back and try to install the original HKS exhaust system and muffler, to have the exhaust pipes out of the airflow path to the propeller. This will require me to make a new engine mount plate, moving the engine forward several inches. That of course will help the CG move a little forward, even though the aircraft is safely flyable at its current CG.

 

 I have no doubt the Kolb List will thoroughly enjoy watching me eat this much crow...     

 

 I'll will probably be down for a month or two in order to get all this done correctly.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com (12flybellaire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

  Subject: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed

  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

  Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 12:38 PM

 

  --> Kolb-List message posted by:

  "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com (12flybellaire(at)gmail.com)>

 

  Well that info may save me from asking

  them about engines which they paid to have returned to the

  factory.  I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that

  day, when I bought it.  Let me know if your carbs fall

  off and you need two new ones.  I'd just like to find

  out what, if any of the components are the same as the new

  700s.  It might help me recover some of my small

  investment. Maybe I'll remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO

  metro, or a Subie conversion?  I did see a choice

  engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a

  half VW case:

  http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html

 

  more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so

  into the video).. first half good too!

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w

 

 

 

 

  Read this topic online here:

 

  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811

 

 

 

 

 

 

  The Kolb-List Email Forum -

  Navigator to browse

  List Un/Subscription,

  7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

       - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

  via the Web Forums!

      - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

  Email List Wiki!

     - List Contribution Web Site -

  support!

                 

      -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:49 pm Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

My fuselage is hanging under the wing at the same angle as everyone else as far as I can see??? Kolb gave me the Should be the same drag... I could lower the wing incidence but that is redesigning the Firestar. 



Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T



Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bill



Please do these changes one at a time so you and we will know what had the

largest effect.



I'm still going to bet that these changes are going to be minor. Also

attempt do the changes in a way that would allow you to go back if you

don't like the change.



I think the biggest thing that is making your plane slow is the increased

fuselage area that the wind is seeing from the tail high and nose down

attitude. It really doesn't matter who or where the change was made. As you

probably know most changes have other effects and lowering the wing angle

of attack and the tail may increase takeoff and landing speeds.



I used to have a muffler on my VW. Maybe my 4 into 1 system makes it quiet

but I had NO increased noise at cruise throttle by just having a straight

pipe system and I gained a 100 RPM on takeoff. My airplane is noisy but not

from exhaust noise.



Someone suggested raising the engine, don't do that. One version of my VW

MKIIIC had a high thrust line and it was dangerous. The lower thrust line

the better and safer your Kolb will fly.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 2:36 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

wrote:



> 

>

> Kolbers, I made a decision today to go ahead with most of the collective

> advice and consensus of the Kolb List, and I began disassembling the oil

> system in order to re-configure it similar to Larry C's HKS Firestar.

>

> After speaking with John H, Larry C, and e-mail corrrespondence with

> several others, plus all the public discussion, I must admit that the

> changes I made (oil cooler venting above the wing, perhaps the exhaust

> pipes blocking the propeller in-flow) are very likely the cause of my

> aircraft's poor performance.

>

> So I am going to re-mount the oil cooler down lower on the cage away from

> the wing, and I'm going to move the oil tank lower underneath the wing, and

> these two things will allow me to make a full airfoil-shaped center gap

> seal/cover like Larry's (and most of the Rotax Kolbs).

>

> I am also going to go back and try to install the original HKS exhaust

> system and muffler, to have the exhaust pipes out of the airflow path to

> the propeller. This will require me to make a new engine mount plate,

> moving the engine forward several inches. That of course will help the CG

> move a little forward, even though the aircraft is safely flyable at its

> current CG.

>

> I have no doubt the Kolb List will thoroughly enjoy watching me eat this

> much crow...     

>

> I'll will probably be down for a month or two in order to get all this

> done correctly.

>

> Bill Berle

> www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

> www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and

> for-profit entities

>

> --------------------------------------------

> On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

>  Subject: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed

>  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

>  Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 12:38 PM

>

>  

>  "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com>

>

>  Well that info may save me from asking

>  them about engines which they paid to have returned to the

>  factory.  I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that

>  day, when I bought it.  Let me know if your carbs fall

>  off and you need two new ones.  I'd just like to find

>  out what, if any of the components are the same as the new

>  700s.  It might help me recover some of my small

>  investment. Maybe I'll remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO

>  metro, or a Subie conversion?  I did see a choice

>  engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a

>  half VW case:

>

> http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html

>

>  more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so

>  into the video).. first half good too!

>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w

>

>

>  Read this topic online here:

>

>  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811

>  The Kolb-List Email Forum -

>  Navigator to browse

>  List Un/Subscription,

>  7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

>       - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

>  via the Web Forums!

>      - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

>  Email List Wiki!

>     - List Contribution Web Site -

>  support!

>

>      -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

>

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

 	  neilsenrm(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  

Someone suggested raising the engine, don't do that. One version of my VW MKIIIC had a high thrust line and it was dangerous. The lower thrust line the better and safer your Kolb will fly. 



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



	




Rick, do you remember how many inches above the main tube your thrust line was? Since we have gone to the fan-cooled 277 instead of the free air 277, we have had to raise the engine 2" to clear the top motor mount tube with the fan housing. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Bryan said not to go over 36". Given that the 277 makes a lot less thrust than what anybody else is using on a Kolb, I expect it to be manageable, but you do have me curious.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Jerry-TS-MkII

Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Just sharing information about my comments to raise the engine.



One of the VERY LAST things which Bill mentioned about his machine modifications, was the venting of his oil cooler from high pressure to the upper wing surface.  And that he noticed some unusual swirling air patterns. (NOT good!)



While the lift distribution on most (whole) airfoils is greater towards the front.. the rear still lifts.  But that does not include wings that effectively have a large hole in the center, or worse ones which have high pressure air injected into that area.  So if the aft 2/3rds normally generates some of the lift.. it's probably not there in Bills plane.  How wide is/was that upset?  I suggested yarn indicators and a camera to observe it in flight.  Worse, if the forward part of the wing IS lifting, then the resulting pitching moment, would point it nose up, much more than a normal whole airfoil and therefore excess down stick forces could be explained, if not expected.



If you take a heavy plane, and then reduce the lift (with a hole, as he produced by accident), the stall speed will go up (his did), the angle of attack will need to go up, where the lift AND drag are both increased.  That means most of the thrust is used just maintaining the normal flight straight and level (his was really doing all it could considering his WOT indicated speed reports.  And Bill reported that the rate of climb was poor, also a indicator of lacking sufficient "excess HP" over straight and level.



At first I thought he might have a CG-overweight-trim issue.  He said his thrust line was lower than the normal 503 installations.  I would assume everyone would consider a factory 503 FS II to have a proper/safe thrust line.  I wasn't recommending going beyond/above that.. only back to where it is comparable.  His prop is currently lower than most.  To raise it slightly would have helped, IF it had been a "trim or CG" issue under power.  CLEARLY.. the wing fix should be his high priority.. before other changes are made.  It may be the only improvement that is truly required.  Any time drag can be reduced.. without cost or weight penalty, it's a good thing.  I too suggested he loose the muffler! LOL



Jerry

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Bill

If your wing is hanging like everyone else you wouldn't need to raise the horizontal stabilizer so far above the boom tube.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 6:51 PM Bill <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 My fuselage is hanging under the wing at the same angle as everyone else as far as I can see??? Kolb gave me the Should be the same drag... I could lower the wing incidence but that is redesigning the Firestar. 

 

 Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T

 

 Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

 >Bill

 >

 >Please do these changes one at a time so you and we will know what had the

 >largest effect.

 >

 >I'm still going to bet that these changes are going to be minor. Also

 >attempt do the changes in a way that would allow you to go back if you

 >don't like the change.

 >

 >I think the biggest thing that is making your plane slow is the increased

 >fuselage area that the wind is seeing from the tail high and nose down

 >attitude. It really doesn't matter who or where the change was made. As you

 >probably know most changes have other effects and lowering the wing angle

 >of attack and the tail may increase takeoff and landing speeds.

 >

 >I used to have a muffler on my VW. Maybe my 4 into 1 system makes it quiet

 >but I had NO increased noise at cruise throttle by just having a straight

 >pipe system and I gained a 100 RPM on takeoff. My airplane is noisy but not

 >from exhaust noise.

 >

 >Someone suggested raising the engine, don't do that. One version of my VW

 >MKIIIC had a high thrust line and it was dangerous. The lower thrust line

 >the better and safer your Kolb will fly.

 >

 >Rick Neilsen

 >Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 >

 >On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 2:36 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 >wrote:

 >

 >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 >>

 >> Kolbers, I made a decision today to go ahead with most of the collective

 >> advice and consensus of the Kolb List, and I began disassembling the oil

 >> system in order to re-configure it similar to Larry C's HKS Firestar.

 >>

 >> After speaking with John H, Larry C, and e-mail corrrespondence with

 >> several others, plus all the public discussion, I must admit that the

 >> changes I made (oil cooler venting above the wing, perhaps the exhaust

 >> pipes blocking the propeller in-flow) are very likely the cause of my

 >> aircraft's poor performance.

 >>

 >> So I am going to re-mount the oil cooler down lower on the cage away from

 >> the wing, and I'm going to move the oil tank lower underneath the wing, and

 >> these two things will allow me to make a full airfoil-shaped center gap

 >> seal/cover like Larry's (and most of the Rotax Kolbs).

 >>

 >> I am also going to go back and try to install the original HKS exhaust

 >> system and muffler, to have the exhaust pipes out of the airflow path to

 >> the propeller. This will require me to make a new engine mount plate,

 >> moving the engine forward several inches. That of course will help the CG

 >> move a little forward, even though the aircraft is safely flyable at its

 >> current CG.

 >>

 >> I have no doubt the Kolb List will thoroughly enjoy watching me eat this

 >> much crow...     

 >>

 >> I'll will probably be down for a month or two in order to get all this

 >> done correctly.

 >>

 >> Bill Berle

 >> www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 >> www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and

 >> for-profit entities

 >>

 >> --------------------------------------------

 >> On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com (12flybellaire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >>

 >>  Subject: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed

 >>  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

 >>  Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 12:38 PM

 >>

 >>  --> Kolb-List message posted by:

 >>  "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire(at)gmail.com (12flybellaire(at)gmail.com)>

 >>

 >>  Well that info may save me from asking

 >>  them about engines which they paid to have returned to the

 >>  factory.  I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that

 >>  day, when I bought it.  Let me know if your carbs fall

 >>  off and you need two new ones.  I'd just like to find

 >>  out what, if any of the components are the same as the new

 >>  700s.  It might help me recover some of my small

 >>  investment. Maybe I'll remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO

 >>  metro, or a Subie conversion?  I did see a choice

 >>  engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a

 >>  half VW case:

 >>

 >> http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html

 >>

 >>  more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so

 >>  into the video).. first half good too!

 >>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>  Read this topic online here:

 >>

 >>  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>  The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 >>  Navigator to browse

 >>  List Un/Subscription,

 >>  7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 >>       - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 >>  via the Web Forums!

 >>      - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 >>  Email List Wiki!

 >>     - List Contribution Web Site -

 >>  support!

 >>

 >>      -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:15 am Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

On Sat, 9/1/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Bill If your wing is hanging like everyone else you wouldn't need to raise the horizontal stabilizer so far above the boom tube.

----------------------------------- 



How exactly can I tell if the fuselage and wing are or are not like everyone else's Kolb? 



The only information I have on that subject is one single measurement, gotten directly from Kolb (also on the plans), and my aircraft is within 1/32" of that measurement they gave me.



If my aircraft closely meets their measurement, and if my wing is still not correctly aligned to the fuselage, then by definition it MUST mean that EITHER my fuselage is damaged, OR that Kolb welded mine together incorrectly. 



Either of these things are of course possible, but let's assume Kolb welded my fuselage correctly, and that the problem on my aircraft must be damage to the steel tube cage that I have not yet discovered. How do I verify that?



How and where do I measure the correct angle of wing alignment/incidence, OTHER than the one simple measurement I got from Kolb (which is also shown on the plans)?



Bill Berle

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Maybe we should be comparing the difference between wing incidence angle to boom tube angle.   By comparing Bill's plane  with other Firestar II's, that should answer the question about the possibility of too high an angle of attack possibly causing nose-low flight and slowing the airplane.

_________________
Jerry King

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:03 am Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Bill,

A few more thoughts. I agree about the 'one thing at a time' advice. Though the oil cooler and center section would obviously need to happen at the same time. Earlier, I missed the oil cooler configuration/center section issue. That, combined with the oil spatter pattern on top of the wing, sounds like a major clue. If you've got spanwise (or even reversed) flow over a significant area, you could be killing lift over a *lot* of the wing. The remaining area must work harder (higher angle of attack) which increases drag. As a FWIW, I've got an old Twinstar with a fan-cooled 503. The builder removed the fan and built an exit duct on the engine that ends just forward of the prop. Cooling courtesy of Bernoulli. Possible alternative for your oil cooler.

Another thought is about engine power. The fuel flow you quoted sounds like you were probably making around 40 hp; possibly a lot less at cruise. Those very long pipes and muffler of unknown restriction may be removing a lot of power. Most engine mfgrs quote power figures in optimized conditions, and engines rarely make as much power in real world installations. Your exhaust may be robbing a lot of power, fighting exhaust flow instead of enhancing it like a set of tuned length pipes.

But I'd be fixing the wing gap first. Hopefully, you have enough hose length to just rotate the cooler 90 degrees & allow closing the top of the wing.

Charlie

baberdk

Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

I have thought about the CoG problem. It is a range that the plane will operate throughout. But when the plane is in the air, the center of lift of a wing is 25%. I think that is the point that the plane rotates about when flying, not the CoG. When you raise or lower the tail you are changing the angle of attack of the wing by rotating the plane around the angle of lift. It becomes apparent that raising the tail reduces the angle of attack which also reduces the amount of lift. In my opinion, when the CoGravity is away from the CoLift you trim for the difference. The CoG will change, that is why it is a range, but the CoLift of your wing is always 25%. The easiest way to change CoG is to move the battery but moving the engine seems like it would have a larger effect although I haven't tried it. Has anyone else? An engine weighs more than a battery but the battery can have a larger moment and I'm too lazy to figure it out.



On a taildragger, we normally let the plane slow down until it quits flying. But when I see the contests to shorten the landing distance, it appears they are increasing the angle of attack above 19 degrees to the relative wind at which point the wing will stall at any speed. It should drop the plane out of the sky and then you overcome the forward inertia. The slower you can fly with the boundary layer attached to the top of the wing, the less forward inertia you have to overcome on ground contact. It's more of a bombing run than a landing in the contests, but a lot of people can't fly a taildragger because you can't flair and they are not very patient. In the contests they FLAIR.

A helicopter doesn't lose lift because the wing is rotating and producing lift all the way to the ground with no forward motion of the fuselage. The fuselage is just drag but raising or lowering the tail will change the area exposed to the stationary air along with the AoA. If we put a Kolb in a wind tunnel we could play with the elevator angle to personalize it, but I'll bet Homer wanted that wing at a certain angle of attack so he wouldn't get sued. But with an Experimental, let's have fun.

[img]cid:ii_jll1ini60[/img]



Respectfully,

Dennis Baber

Cape Coral, Fl

baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)





Stay Curious

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Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Bill,



Get a digital level.



Measure the wing angle under the wing fore and aft.  Take readings on each rib or alternate rib and average them.



Do the same for the motor mounts fore and aft and the tube and horizontal stabilizer.



Compare these angles to what Kolb recommends or the angles on a good firestar that hopefully someone on the list will give you.



I don't know of any other way to find out what you are dealing with.  Just guessing or "I think it looks right" doesn't do it.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans.



We checked CG on the Ultrastar by hanging the aircraft from the main spar carry through.  If it was close to level it was good to go.  No paperwork required.  No battery to move forward or back.



My original FS had no weight and balance.



My MKIII did, but the cg was so far back on paper that it was illegal to fly.  My MKIII flies pretty good.  In a glide it is trimmed perfectly.  Under power it takes a lot of nose up trim.  That pusher prop is at the end of a long lever that naturally pushes the nose down.  That's why we have nose up pitch trim.  I've flown some pretty screwed up Kolbs and they flew much better than "The Mystery Ship", Bill B's FSII.



Build and configure the Kolb the way the plans call for, hang some extra long main gear legs and big ass tires and the the Kolb will fly great.  The Mystery Ship has some things not built or rigged to specs.  Get it back to specs and specified rigging and it will fly.



Do you think you are getting full power out of your HKS?  It is a second hand engine with time on it.  How do you know it is running like it should?



This thread has got to be a record for the Kolb List.



I can't fix it if I can't see it.



A helicopter produces lift most of the time until you stall the blades, just like stalling a fixed wing.  They like clean, cool, dry air.  They will settle with power when too much pitch is pulled in and they begin stalling.  You get out of that stall by lowering the collective and pushing the nose over, hoping you have enough altitude to recover.  Why are we discussing helicopters?



Short landing contestants, the pros at least, don't flare because they are at the very edge of the stall all the way to the ground.  They are flared when the are making the approach to land.



Stay close to Larry Cottrell and his FSII.  It flies great with an HKS and big tires.  Just what Bill B is looking for as an off field aircraft.



john h

Somewhere on a mountain near Morgan, Utah.



---- Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have thought about the CoG problem. It is a range that the plane will

 operate throughout. But when the plane is in the air, the center of lift of

 a wing is 25%. I think that is the point that the plane rotates about when

 flying, not the CoG. When you raise or lower the tail you are changing the

 angle of attack of the wing by rotating the plane around the angle of lift.

 It becomes apparent that raising the tail reduces the angle of attack which

 also reduces the amount of lift. In my opinion, when the CoGravity is away

 from the CoLift you trim for the difference. The CoG will change, that is

 why it is a range, but the CoLift of your wing is always 25%. The easiest

 way to change CoG is to move the battery but moving the engine seems like

 it would have a larger effect although I haven't tried it. Has anyone else?

 An engine weighs more than a battery but the battery can have a larger

 moment and I'm too lazy to figure it out.

 

 On a taildragger, we normally let the plane slow down until it quits

 flying. But when I see the contests to shorten the landing distance, it

 appears they are increasing the angle of attack above 19 degrees to the

 relative wind at which point the wing will stall at any speed. It should

 drop the plane out of the sky and then you overcome the forward inertia.

 The slower you can fly with the boundary layer attached to the top of the

 wing, the less forward inertia you have to overcome on ground contact. It's

 more of a bombing run than a landing in the contests, but a lot of people

 can't fly a taildragger because you can't flair and they are not very

 patient. In the contests they FLAIR.

 

 A helicopter doesn't lose lift because the wing is rotating and producing

 lift all the way to the ground with no forward motion of the fuselage. The

 fuselage is just drag but raising or lowering the tail will change the area

 exposed to the stationary air along with the AoA. If we put a Kolb in a

 wind tunnel we could play with the elevator angle to personalize it, but

 I'll bet Homer wanted that wing at a certain angle of attack so he wouldn't

 get sued. But with an Experimental, let's have fun.

 

 

 

 [image: image.png]

 

 

 Respectfully,

 Dennis Baber

 Cape Coral, Fl

 baberdk(at)gmail.com

 

 

 Stay Curious

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: Firestar Re-Configure Project

Kolbers:

Forgot to qualify my comments in my previous message below.

What I write on the Kolb List is in no way meant to encourage anyone to do as I do.  My methods of building, repairing, rigging, and flying Kolb aircraft are mostly unconventional by other's standards.  I have lived and still live an unconventional life style.  I spent time in the US Army Special Forces as an EM and an officer, in peace and war.  I have always been somewhat of a maverick.  I guess that life style never wears off.

If you want to use any of the info I share, feel free to do it. I don't encourage anyone to do so.  What works for me may not work for you.  What I share does work for me and has been learned through many years and hours of building, flying, making mistakes, tearing up Kolbs, experimenting, and working until I get something that works well for me.

So please don't go do something because I said I do it.

I'm celebrating 50 years as a rotary wing and fixed wing flight time.  I've been able to survive so far.  Don't intend to change that.

john h

mkIII

Between East Canyon and Morgan, Utah.

---- jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	

 Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans.

 We checked CG on the Ultrastar by hanging the aircraft from the main spar carry through.  If it was close to level it was good to go.  No paperwork required.  No battery to move forward or back.

 My original FS had no weight and balance.

 My MKIII did, but the cg was so far back on paper that it was illegal to fly.  My MKIII flies pretty good.  In a glide it is trimmed perfectly.  Under power it takes a lot of nose up trim.  That pusher prop is at the end of a long lever that naturally pushes the nose down.  That's why we have nose up pitch trim.  I've flown some pretty screwed up Kolbs and they flew much better than "The Mystery Ship", Bill B's FSII.

 Build and configure the Kolb the way the plans call for, hang some extra long main gear legs and big ass tires and the the Kolb will fly great.  The Mystery Ship has some things not built or rigged to specs.  Get it back to specs and specified rigging and it will fly.

 Do you think you are getting full power out of your HKS?  It is a second hand engine with time on it.  How do you know it is running like it should?

 This thread has got to be a record for the Kolb List.

 I can't fix it if I can't see it.

 A helicopter produces lift most of the time until you stall the blades, just like stalling a fixed wing.  They like clean, cool, dry air.  They will settle with power when too much pitch is pulled in and they begin stalling.  You get out of that stall by lowering the collective and pushing the nose over, hoping you have enough altitude to recover.  Why are we discussing helicopters?

 Short landing contestants, the pros at least, don't flare because they are at the very edge of the stall all the way to the ground.  They are flared when the are making the approach to land.

 Stay close to Larry Cottrell and his FSII.  It flies great with an HKS and big tires.  Just what Bill B is looking for as an off field aircraft.

 john h

 Somewhere on a mountain near Morgan, Utah.

 ---- Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 > I have thought about the CoG problem. It is a range that the plane will

 > operate throughout. But when the plane is in the air, the center of lift of

 > a wing is 25%. I think that is the point that the plane rotates about when

 > flying, not the CoG. When you raise or lower the tail you are changing the

 > angle of attack of the wing by rotating the plane around the angle of lift.

 > It becomes apparent that raising the tail reduces the angle of attack which

 > also reduces the amount of lift. In my opinion, when the CoGravity is away

 > from the CoLift you trim for the difference. The CoG will change, that is

 > why it is a range, but the CoLift of your wing is always 25%. The easiest

 > way to change CoG is to move the battery but moving the engine seems like

 > it would have a larger effect although I haven't tried it. Has anyone else?

 > An engine weighs more than a battery but the battery can have a larger

 > moment and I'm too lazy to figure it out.

 > 

 > On a taildragger, we normally let the plane slow down until it quits

 > flying. But when I see the contests to shorten the landing distance, it

 > appears they are increasing the angle of attack above 19 degrees to the

 > relative wind at which point the wing will stall at any speed. It should

 > drop the plane out of the sky and then you overcome the forward inertia.

 > The slower you can fly with the boundary layer attached to the top of the

 > wing, the less forward inertia you have to overcome on ground contact. It's

 > more of a bombing run than a landing in the contests, but a lot of people

 > can't fly a taildragger because you can't flair and they are not very

 > patient. In the contests they FLAIR.

 > 

 > A helicopter doesn't lose lift because the wing is rotating and producing

 > lift all the way to the ground with no forward motion of the fuselage. The

 > fuselage is just drag but raising or lowering the tail will change the area

 > exposed to the stationary air along with the AoA. If we put a Kolb in a

 > wind tunnel we could play with the elevator angle to personalize it, but

 > I'll bet Homer wanted that wing at a certain angle of attack so he wouldn't

 > get sued. But with an Experimental, let's have fun.

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > [image: image.png]

 > 

 > 

 > Respectfully,

 > Dennis Baber

 > Cape Coral, Fl

 > baberdk(at)gmail.com

 > 

 > 

 > Stay Curious

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project

John,



You said "Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans".



Mine didn't work out that way.  I initally set the wings per measurement per the plans.  At final assembly I called Brian for the angles as there had been a lot of discussion on the list at that time regarding wing angles.  I had to redrill the front wing attachment and use the "reverse" back u-joint with washers to get the correct angles. (see pictures) The plane has flown great so I'm sure the angles are good.



Maybe I screwed up the measurements the first time?  Don't know.



My point is that if you measure the angles you know exactly what you have.

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