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rv8ch
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:56 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Hi,
I'm curious if we should use the exact same rating for fuses as are recommended for circuit breakers.
I have all fuses with one CB as recommended by the AEC, and for most devices they say something "protect with a 1 amp circuit breaker". My understanding is that fuses are "faster", so more likely to blow in a case where a CB might not have time to react - could be I have this wrong. Is there a recommendation to use the exact same value of fuse as recommended for circuit breakers, or should we increase the fuse size?
Thanks for any tips.
Mickey Coggins
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Here is my opinion:
Use the same size.
Do not use fuses smaller than 3 amps. 3 amp fuses and larger are available from Van's that glow when blown.
If a fuse nuisance blows for loads that have a high momentary current, use the next larger size. Of course the wire must be able to carry the current.
The nice thing about fuses is that it is easy to change amp rating.
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art(at)zemon.name
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Joe,
Why do you say not to use a fuse smaller than 3 amps? My backup ASI/altimeter came with installation instructions calling for a 1 amp slow blow fuse. I splurged the $1.02 and installed it.
-- Art Z.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 1:52 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Here is my opinion:
Use the same size.
Do not use fuses smaller than 3 amps.
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https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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One reason is to keep the number of spare fuses to a minimum. Another reason is that glow-when-blown fuses are not readily available at less than 3 amps. Wire sizes commonly used to wire home-built airplanes can safely carry 3 amps. But I am not going to argue with the equipment manufacture's recommendation. Evidently your ASI/Altimeter does not have any internal protection. I should not have wrote to not use less than a 3 amps fuse. It sure doesn't hurt to use a smaller fuse than 3 amps. But I prefer not to.
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cluros(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:13 pm Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Ha! I know the answer to this one! In case you land away from base after the fuse blows and you have repaired whatever caused the fuse to blow and then want to get home.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 17:47 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 04:10 PM 10/23/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
One reason is to keep the number of spare fuses to a minimum. |
Why would you carry spare fuses in the airplane?
Bob . . .
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yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:50 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Ha ha Almost correct.
I carry them to help my buddy home who did NOT use an aeroelectric architecture !
Ken
do not archive
On 10/23/2018 10:11 PM, Sebastien wrote: | Quote: | Ha! I know the answer to this one! In case you land away from base after the fuse blows and you have repaired whatever caused the fuse to blow and then want to get home.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 17:47 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 04:10 PM 10/23/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
One reason is to keep the number of spare fuses to a minimum. |
Why would you carry spare fuses in the airplane?
Bob . . .
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Hi Joe:
Will you further explain the statement: "... glow when blown."?
I do recall years ago there were fuse holders for AC that would glow when the fuse blew. It was a simple circuit of a NE2 bulb and a series resistor. They were wired in series across the fuse. When the fuse blew the circuit would become active and the NE2 would glow.
Is this the same idea?
Barry
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 2:33 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Here is my opinion:
Use the same size.
Do not use fuses smaller than 3 amps. 3 amp fuses and larger are available from Van's that glow when blown.
If a fuse nuisance blows for loads that have a high momentary current, use the next larger size. Of course the wire must be able to carry the current.
The nice thing about fuses is that it is easy to change amp rating.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483988#483988
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Barry,
Yes, the principle is the same, except that a LED and series resistor are used instead of a neon bulb. Of course a load must be connected for the LED to glow. Vans Aircraft sells them at a very reasonable price.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1540512196-220-9&browse=electrical&product=misc
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donvansanten(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:28 pm Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Same idea, built into the atc fuse.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 16:32 FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Joe:
Will you further explain the statement: "... glow when blown."?
I do recall years ago there were fuse holders for AC that would glow when the fuse blew. It was a simple circuit of a NE2 bulb and a series resistor. They were wired in series across the fuse. When the fuse blew the circuit would become active and the NE2 would glow.
Is this the same idea?
Barry
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 2:33 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:31 pm Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Right You Are Charlie:
Here is another thought?
In the AC world there is a thing know as a Ground Fault Interrupt (GFI).
It detects a short so fast that YOU can put your hand in a sink of water and touch an outlet and YOU would not feel a thing.
The GFI would Pop and YOU would be alive. Pretty impressive.
So, why can't they design a circuit like that for DC?
For our EXPENSIVE instruments!
As for the CB protecting the wires and not the device... Well, I have heard that and read that for years.
It does not protect the device ONLY because it does not function quick enough to prevent damage.
But, as for protecting the wires... I feel that statement is a BUNK!
If it was only to protect the wires WHY doesn't ALL wires of the same size have the same size CB?
That statement sure sounds like C.Y.A..
The product manufacture did not want to go the extra distance - spelt - MONEY. To add protection to the product!
When all else fails - Write a Disclaimer.
Barry
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:57 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I'll jump in, because that's one of my pet peeves. First, the mfgr of a widget shouldn't be asking the end user to supply protection for their device. Circuit protection protects circuits; not devices. If the mfgr thinks their device needs a 1A fuse, it should be in the device. Ever seen a piece of consumer or industrial electronics that came with a requirement that you supply its fusing? (They tell you the *minimum* size circuit needed; not a spec for device protection.) Second, a 1A fuse isn't going to protect anything; the equipment will either die before the fuse blows, or the fuse will be blowing needlessly on a more or less random (possibly regular) basis. That's likely why Joe said not to use any fusing under 3A; a policy I also use.
Charlie
On 10/23/2018 2:11 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
| Quote: | Joe,
Why do you say not to use a fuse smaller than 3 amps? My backup ASI/altimeter came with installation instructions calling for a 1 amp slow blow fuse. I splurged the $1.02 and installed it.
-- Art Z.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 1:52 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Here is my opinion:
Use the same size.
Do not use fuses smaller than 3 amps.
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https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:33 pm Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Joe:
Thanks for the explanation and link.
Barry
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:15 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Barry,
Yes, the principle is the same, except that a LED and series resistor are used instead of a neon bulb. Of course a load must be connected for the LED to glow. Vans Aircraft sells them at a very reasonable price.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1540512196-220-9&browse=electrical&product=misc
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484015#484015
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:06 pm Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Thanks Don,
Ya know guys, the circuit is so simple it can be added to a CB. probably easier than a fuse.
Good for the CB that is out of the standard field of view.
Barry
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 8:33 PM don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com (donvansanten(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Same idea, built into the atc fuse.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 16:32 FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Joe:
Will you further explain the statement: "... glow when blown."?
I do recall years ago there were fuse holders for AC that would glow when the fuse blew. It was a simple circuit of a NE2 bulb and a series resistor. They were wired in series across the fuse. When the fuse blew the circuit would become active and the NE2 would glow.
Is this the same idea?
Barry
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 2:33 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Bob:
Of course GFI will not work on planes, not as yet! The present GFI for homes uses inductance in the AC circuit. Our planes are DC, inductance is not there, AC is not there!
The type of Ground does not matter.
Barry
On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 10:59 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:41 AM 10/26/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | At 07:29 PM 10/25/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Right You Are Charlie:
Here is another thought?
In the AC world there is a thing know as a Ground Fault Interrupt (GFI) ... Barry |
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| Quote: |
So I'll correct my earlier assertion . . . GFIs
don't exist for aircraft. In fact, they wouldn't
work in a system that specifically uses airframe
ground as the return power path.
Bob . . .
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Bob:
You are a COMPANY MAN, you think too much of ridiculous things like the CO$T to install a device.
The fellows out there do not think of the "cost/benefit ratio" , for if they did they would NEVER build a plane.
Guys, if you think my statement is incorrect just sit down and work out thee TRUE hours you invested in the building of your plane.
At a Very Conservative rate of say $2.00 / Hour - Just In Labor - Work out how much your plane has cost you.
Then take the $2.00 / Hr rate and replace it with your TRUE hourly work rate that you are being paid in your current job.
Even if you worked at McDonald's - Considering their hourly rate... Your plane would be worth Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars and that is JUST for the LABOR!
On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 10:44 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 08:05 PM 10/25/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Don,
Ya know guys, the circuit is so simple it can be added to a CB. probably easier than a fuse.
Good for the CB that is out of the standard field of view.
Barry |
But what is the cost/benefit ratio? 99.99% of all
breakers/fuses installed in all vehicles at the
factory go to the junkyard never having been
tasked to do their job.
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| Quote: | For every fault that takes a system down by
opening the power feeder protection, there
are MANY more faults equally deleterious
to system operation that do not open the
feeder protection.
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Barry - Yeah, so??? I don't see your point.
Are you concerned about the CO$T again?
Or the Quantity of indicating fuses/CB'ers installed?
It does not have to be on every fuse/CB, only the ones the Builder/Pilot thinks they would like a bit more information from.
| Quote: |
When circuit protection does operate in
a thoughtfully designed system, the thing
is broke. Resetting the breaker or replacing
the fuse will not bring it back.
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Barry - It WON'T!!!???
Then why even have a resealable CB?
Why is the in-flight procedure of Resetting a CB only once while in the air, taught?
There is one poor design on a certified plane where the Strobes and the Boost Pump are on the same CB. There have been reports where if the Boost Pump is left on during Start the CB will pop. Of course a smart pilot will shut-off the boost pump after the system is pressurized. But, human nature being what it is... Pilots will forget to shut-off the boost pump. So, I guess a resealable CB is a wast of money?
| Quote: |
The pilot's first clue that something is
amiss is when an expected event doesn't
occur on the airplane . . . but what value
is there in knowing the state of power
feeder protection? The reason for malfunction
is not relevant to the pilot's prime
directive: effect a return to earth
without bending airplanes or people.
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Barry - Yeah! There is NO Value in saving a few seconds and calming the mind when something goes wrong and does not function as it should. I guess that is why companies like E.I., JPI and Safe Air have separate Idiot Lights so they can be mounted directly in your field of view.
Just to warn you seconds sooner... Any IFR pilots out there? Anyone have a Low Vacuum Warning Light? Get rid of it. You don't need it! Bob said so.
Whoops, I'm VFR and I have one on my VFR plane!
Not for long as I'm going G5.
Indicating fuses are cute but the feature
| Quote: | saves only seconds of diagnostic time which
is done on the ground.
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Barry - O! I guess you and no one else out there EVER experienced a fuse or CB to pop in the air???
I think you should go back and read past posts of electrical/alternator issues where they popped ONLY during flight!
Your Green is showing!
It was ONLY a thought.
Barry
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Great Response Joe! GREAT!
After all, LQQK at all that electricity as done for you! But, what have your you done for Electricity!
I'm still smiling and laughing - GREAT RESPONSE!
Barry
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: Same rating for fuses and circuit breakers? |
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Of course it is John, Of course it is!
That is exactly my point!
Barry
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