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switch for Flap motor

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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:24 am Post subject: switch for Flap motor

Views appreciated on whether the flap motor up/down switch should be momentary (mom) off (mom) or three position (on) off (on) DPDT

I see that the motor switches off and limits at each end and I am thinking that holding it down/up white it motors might be tedious.



I presume the flap motor is necessary with the extended baggage bay. Something else to get wrong on landing (pump on, prop fine, gear down and.. flaps down  etc) 



Thanks for all responses on other threads very much appreciated.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: switch for Flap motor

You are right Graeme, 

 

  I always offer a ON OFF (ON) for my clients.  The flap with limit is s l o w.  On a go around just hit the switch and go. 

 

 

  If not on a time budget:. Jerry Hope made a switch mod where he fabbed a flap shape handle, then took apart the switch to prevent the baton from rotating and installed the flap shaped handle to the now non rotating baton.  Gorgeous work. 

 

 

  Otherwise, just a plane switch as described is a few bucks and worth it.  If the PFA allows. 

 

 

  [img]cid:8d2db516-9cf7-4a51-995e-193852d5b4b8[/img]

 

 

 

 

 

  Best Regards 

 

  Bud Yerly 

 

 

   Bud Yerly

 

  Custom Flight Creations

 

 

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

 Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 5:24:46 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: switch for Flap motor  

 

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

 

 Views appreciated on whether the flap motor up/down switch should be momentary (mom) off (mom) or three position (on) off (on) DPDT

 I see that the motor switches off and limits at each end and I am thinking that holding it down/up white it motors might be tedious.

 

 I presume the flap motor is necessary with the extended baggage bay. Something else to get wrong on landing (pump on, prop fine, gear down and.. flaps down  etc) 

 

 Thanks for all responses on other threads very much appreciated.

 

 --------

 Graeme Bird

 G-UMPY -  Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp SR3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, Smart A3

 350 hours &amp; 6 years on the Mono, 930 total

 g(at)gdbmk.co.uk

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487066#487066

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:21 am Post subject: Re: switch for Flap motor

I would really like to change my â€˜hold up or downâ€™ flap buttons for a 3 position switch. Retraction or full deployment takes around 12 secs which is way too long to have your hands off the throttle. 



Does anybody have information on how to modify the standard arrangement?



Regards

John

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:50 pm Post subject: switch for Flap motor

John,

Since you are operating under the LAA, there should be a suitable mod approved already for this.  If not, I guess you are prepared to blaze that trail yourself.



Here in the USA, Iâ€™d go to B&C Aero to purchase the necessary switch:



https://www.bandc.aero/toggleswitch-doublepole.aspx



The switch you need would be the S700-2-1, top of the list to the right (-1 ON-OFF-ON).  You would wire it the same way as the existing (ON)-OFF-(ON) switch already installed with your build.  The biggest problem would be changing from the big rectangular hole of the existing switch to the nice little round hole(s) of the toggle switch.



If you prefer to stay with a rocker switch, McMaster-Carr has them:



https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-controls



One of these might make the change easier.



Thereâ€™s also ACS.  They probably have a suitable switch in their stock:



https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/switches.html



There should be a source for any of these switches in the UK, but I wouldnâ€™t know who that might be.  Perhaps one of your Europa mates will come to your rescue.



Lastly, why is it important to fuss so much with the flaps?  The Europa is designed to climb well with the flaps fully extended.  If things are a bit dicy with full flaps, you just take 3-4 seconds to get the flaps to 2/3 and then the climb has improved dramatically and you can take your time, 3-4 seconds at a time, to retract the remainder of the flaps.  



In any case, there are suitable alternatives to the Europa supplied spring-loaded-to-off switch.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop.3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)On Jan 20, 2019, at 3:21 AM, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>I would really like to change my Ã¢Â€Â˜hold up or downÃ¢Â€Â™ flap buttons for a 3 position switch. Retraction or full deployment takes around 12 secs which is way too long to have your hands off the throttle. Does anybody have information on how to modify the standard arrangement?RegardsJohn--------John WightonEuropa XS trigear G-IPOD

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:21 am Post subject: Re: switch for Flap motor

Bob,



Thanks for the input.  I have 2 x 3/4in buttons that operate the flaps, up and down.  A 3 position switch will not give me the 3 position control l need (like a C182).



As l see it l would need a position sensor on the flap drive motor to give the mid position signal to stop the motor?



My panel may need a blanking plate and new (ideally flap profile) 3 position switch (see the rather old photo attached).



I have 500+ hours and have so far managed to cope with the buttons, however, an analysis of 'flight blunders' include many that relate to the flap operation as-is. If the improvement could be made without huge drama l will make a mod.  But l have seen other Europas with 3 position switches.



Regards

JW

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_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:46 am Post subject: Re: switch for Flap motor

I'm in danger of answering my own questions!



As Bob pointed out Aircraft Spruce stock a range of switches.  I found this one https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php



Which seems to be ideal for my needs.  It does not requires a position pot or sensor on the flap drive (no extra wiring).  It is calibrated (set) via a combination of push buttons.  



It enables 0, mid and full flap positions at a single push.  What is even better is the fact it lits up - hence (potentially) being acceptable for LAA IFR fit.



JW

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_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:16 am Post subject: switch for Flap motor

Hi John,



I think you will still need a position sensor to make it work.  See

installations instructions attached.



Regards



Brian Davies

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:23 am Post subject: switch for Flap motor

Also, if you have a nice round hole already and the toggle switch type is the only thing you are complaining about consider this.

With the slow flap driver that has up and down limit switches, you have choices.



ON  OFF  (ON)  is convenient for takeoff situations and those who milk their flaps down.



ON  OFF  ON  is all that is necessary.  The Europa Trigear/Conventional flap positions frankly only need full up and full down for most flights.  ½ flap for takeoff from a soft field is nice or a bit of flap for a lower takeoff attitude is also comfortable.  Hence the momentary for the down is fine.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From a maintenance standpoint, if your existing switch is a spade or screw terminal, just prewire the crisscross, pull the old, unscrew the switch and replace.  It’s not rocket science.  Changing to a rectangular switch or some sort of custom arrangement is owners choice.  It just costs money and time to do anything you want.


	


Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com>

Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2019 2:36:35 PM

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: switch for Flap motor



John,



Since you are operating under the LAA, there should be a suitable mod approved already for this.  If not, I guess you are prepared to blaze that trail yourself.



Here in the USA, I’d go to B&C Aero to purchase the necessary switch:



https://www.bandc.aero/toggleswitch-doublepole.aspx



The switch you need would be the S700-2-1, top of the list to the right (-1 ON-OFF-ON).  You would wire it the same way as the existing (ON)-OFF-(ON) switch already installed with your build.  The biggest problem would be changing from the big rectangular hole of the existing switch to the nice little round hole(s) of the toggle switch.



If you prefer to stay with a rocker switch, McMaster-Carr has them:



https://www.mcmaster.com/electrical-controls



One of these might make the change easier.



There’s also ACS.  They probably have a suitable switch in their stock:



https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/switches.html



There should be a source for any of these switches in the UK, but I wouldn’t know who that might be.  Perhaps one of your Europa mates will come to your rescue.



Lastly, why is it important to fuss so much with the flaps?  The Europa is designed to climb well with the flaps fully extended.  If things are a bit dicy with full flaps, you just take 3-4 seconds to get the flaps to 2/3 and then the climb has improved dramatically and you can take your time, 3-4 seconds at a time, to retract the remainder of the flaps.



In any case, there are suitable alternatives to the Europa supplied spring-loaded-to-off switch.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop

cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:06 am Post subject: switch for Flap motor

I have a flap switch up/off/down I have to hold it for up or down. Itâ€™s never been a problem in use 700hrs +. Plenty of time to do everything else as well. Itâ€™s mounted on the tunnel not the panel so no mix ups in use. 



Kevin Challis

G ODJG 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 21 Jan 2019, at 14:46, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 I'm in danger of answering my own questions!

 

 As Bob pointed out Aircraft Spruce stock a range of switches.  I found this one https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/electronicsflapcontroller.php

 

 Which seems to be ideal for my needs.  It does not requires a position pot or sensor on the flap drive (no extra wiring).  It is calibrated (set) via a combination of push buttons.  

 

 It enables 0, mid and full flap positions at a single push.  What is even better is the fact it lits up - hence (potentially) being acceptable for LAA IFR fit.

 

 JW

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487122#487122

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/flap_drive_switch_168.jpg

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:38 am Post subject: Re: switch for Flap motor

Reply to Brian



No, the device can be set up without position switches.  There is an option to include a position switch as seen in the installation manual (which l'd already sent to Andy Draper for comment). The middle position is set up by manually setting it then inputting the button sequence as stated.  After set up just push one of the 3  buttons to select the flap required.



Reply to Bob



I don't agree with Bob that most flights need just UP or DOWN flap.  I nearly always use MID flap for T/O.  We operate from much smaller grass strips where a tangible improvement in field performance is useful.  Having flown a bit in the US (about 350 hrs but non in a Europa) most airfields have long, hard runways.



The only slight downside is the size of the unit - it is 4in wide (tall in my case) and may need trimming back.



An Issue?



Having flown 500+ hrs in the Europa there hasn't been a single flight when l haven't (mildly) cursed the amount of time holding down that darn flap button!

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

Ivor

Joined: 23 Jul 2015
Posts: 51

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:49 am Post subject: Re: switch for Flap motor

I Have this set up in my Tri gear and too date its worked flawlessly for 

11 years,

Press your flap switch for one second and it lowers the flaps to 15 degrees 

For take off ( this setting can be changed to your choice) 

Once airborne with positive climb hold up on switch for more than 1 second 

Will retract flaps fully,

Coming into land, reduce speed to white arch press down on switch for 

More than two seconds to lower full flaps, very simple to use,

I also have a manual override to lower flaps normally if needed,

Not totally sure if they are available but worth looking,



http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus-nt.htm

Corinthian

Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 12

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:34 am Post subject: switch for Flap motor

All I can say is that your flap motor works quicker than mine! I am sure it takes about 20 seconds to get to full flap and about 10 seconds to 18 degrees.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 22 Jan 2019, at 10:49, Ivor <g-iver(at)live.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

 

 I Have this set up in my Tri gear and too date its worked flawlessly for 

 11 years,

 Press your flap switch for one second and it lowers the flaps to 15 degrees 

 For take off ( this setting can be changed to your choice) 

 Once airborne with positive climb hold up on switch for more than 1 second 

 Will retract flaps fully,

 Coming into land, reduce speed to white arch press down on switch for 

 More than two seconds to lower full flaps, very simple to use,

 I also have a manual override to lower flaps normally if needed,

 Not totally sure if they are available but worth looking,

 

 http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus-nt.htm

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487160#487160

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:12 am Post subject: switch for Flap motor

I use 1/2  flaps (actually 10 degrees) for takeoff.  It's 3 seconds of hold down.  

 

 

  Like I said.  It's just time and money to get custom.

 

 

  Small planes are also 5 pounds of stuff in a 3 pound bag.  Finding room anywhere is an issue plus any change you make affects 20 other things in an existing plane.

 

 

  Best Regards,

 

  Bud Yerly

 

 

   Bud Yerly

 

  Custom Flight Creations

 

 

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net>

 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 3:38:59 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: switch for Flap motor  

 

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>

 

 Reply to Brian

 

 No, the device can be set up without position switches.  There is an option to include a position switch as seen in the installation manual (which l'd already sent to Andy Draper for comment). The middle position is set up by manually setting it then inputting  the button sequence as stated.  After set up just push one of the 3  buttons to select the flap required.

 

 Reply to Bob

 

 I don't agree with Bob that most flights need just UP or DOWN flap.  I nearly always use MID flap for T/O.  We operate from much smaller grass strips where a tangible improvement in field performance is useful.  Having flown a bit in the US (about 350 hrs but  non in a Europa) most airfields have long, hard runways.

 

 The only slight downside is the size of the unit - it is 4in wide (tall in my case) and may need trimming back.

 

 An Issue?

 

 Having flown 500+ hrs in the Europa there hasn't been a single flight when l haven't (mildly) cursed the amount of time holding down that darn flap button!

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487159#487159

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:43 am Post subject: Re: switch for Flap motor

Ivor,



Thanks - the link in your post is very useful.  The sequencer/position device is essentially the same functionality of the one l have found.  It is cheaper but does require me to break into the loom for the various connections.



It follows that the unit/installation is approved (via annual Permit renewal inspections or separate MOD approval), so no issues with the LAA either.



Price is USD129, to UK USD148 inc shipping.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

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