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Stressmerchant
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:34 am Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Hi all
I'm having problems starting my Yak-52. Symptoms:
- I can get a normal start, but only if the air pressure is right up over 5 (ie 50). Once the prop is turning, she starts easily.
- Anywhere much below 5, no start.
- If I press the start button, no prop movement at all. Not even a twitch. Just a soft whining sound that does not sound much like air rushing through.
- Using the little override lever at the side of the valve produces the same result, ie no movement.
- Battery voltages are good, and we get the same behavior using a 28V external power cart.
I suspect that the valve itself has a lot of gunk in it, and that at high pressure the air can make it past the muck. But I'm no expert.
Does anyone have any ideas? Should I be looking to replace the solenoid?
Thanks
Mike
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Stressmerchant
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problems |
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Some feedback on the starting problem:
We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.
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hill(at)doctor-hill.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:13 am Post subject: Starting Problems |
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For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
| Quote: | On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Some feedback on the starting problem:
We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:01 am Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
>
> Some feedback on the starting problem:
> We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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pennington.construction.i
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:27 am Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Agree with all. Been there done that, proudly wear the T-shirt.
I would add. Talk to Doug about his final filter design made from check valves.
I have those in my plane. Cured dirty tubing etc. Love Doug’s final filter.
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 12:07 PM Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
>
> Some feedback on the starting problem:
> We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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pennington.construction.i
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:32 am Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Agree with all. Been there done that, proudly wear the T-shirt.
I would add. Talk to Doug about his final filter design made from check valves.
I have those in my plane. Cured dirty tubing etc. Love Doug’s final filter.
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
>
> Some feedback on the starting problem:
> We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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hill(at)doctor-hill.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:19 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Byron,
Next time I go to the hangar I’ll take a picture of the flaring tool. Rather than the ¼ inch aluminum line that’s commonly used, I use 6 mm tubing and the flaring tool is metric. 6 mm tubing is often used in foreign automotive brake system applications. Lots of different vendors. This is also available in stainless steel, which is harder to work and flare, but far more durable.
As any experienced A&P will tell you, properly flaring the end of a tube is something of an art. There are many details that make the difference between creating something long-lasting and something that temporarily gets you by. Also, flaring is only a part of the overall exercise. If the nipple is bunged up, a perfect flare will leak. And if the B-nut is under or over tightened, the connection will not work or last as advertised. My experience has been that most of the fail points in a pneumatic system are the result of something preventable.
I’ve heard of many approaches to servicing the system: WD40, cod liver oil, compressor oil and glycerine. Glycerine is what I’ve always used and it seems to work well. This is easily ordered on Amazon as “Glycerol Glycerin.” 30 ml of reagent grade glycerine for about $6.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
| Quote: | On Jan 27, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Byron Fox <byronmfox(at)gmail.com (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ. • Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains. • New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go. • Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point. • Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure. • Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious. • Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year. • Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis. • Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious. • Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well. • Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks. • Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof. Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand. Warren Hill N464TW Mesa, AZ > On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote: > > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> > > Some feedback on the starting problem: > We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292 > > > > > > > > > =========== List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List =========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com =========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com =========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== |
-- ... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:33 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Many thanks, Warren
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Jan 27, 2019, at 10:31 AM, Mark Pennington <pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com (pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Agree with all. Been there done that, proudly wear the T-shirt.
I would add. Talk to Doug about his final filter design made from check valves.
I have those in my plane. Cured dirty tubing etc. Love Doug’s final filter.
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
>
> Some feedback on the starting problem:
> We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:39 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Blitz;
Parker 37 deg. Flaring tool. On sale at TAS for $99.00.
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 9:00 AM
To: Yak LIst (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
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Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:30 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Hi Blitz;
Just read Warren’s post which reminded me I should have advised that use of the aircraft flaring tool for the 6 mm tubing requires the use of a small piece of 400 grit (or close) wet-or-dry wrapped around the tubing to take up the .014” clearance. A small pain in the ass but not a problem. For the 8mm tubing the 5/16 setting is just fine.
Perhaps Warren could advise if he has found a metric AIRCRAFT flaring tool which would be great! The standard (non-aircraft) metric flare is 90 deg. (inc. angle) while all aircraft (including the CJ) use the universal aircraft standard of 37.5 degs. (75 deg. inc.).
The Parker aircraft flaring tool is an excellent device and will give you perfect flares every time.
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 4:33 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Many thanks, Warren
Blitz Fox 415-307-2405
On Jan 27, 2019, at 10:31 AM, Mark Pennington <pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com (pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Agree with all. Been there done that, proudly wear the T-shirt.
I would add. Talk to Doug about his final filter design made from check valves.
I have those in my plane. Cured dirty tubing etc. Love Doug’s final filter.
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
===========
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:58 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Walt, I’m ignorant. What’s TAS?
Blitz Fox415-307-2405
On Jan 27, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: | Blitz;
Parker 37 deg. Flaring tool. On sale at TAS for $99.00.
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 9:00 AM
To: Yak LIst (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
===========
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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hill(at)doctor-hill.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:13 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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Walt,
For those using replacement ¼ inch aluminum, the Rigid 377 flaring tool will also do a nice 37 degree flare and does not stretch the base of the flare.
Warren | Quote: | On Jan 27, 2019, at 6:29 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
Hi Blitz;
Just read Warren’s post which reminded me I should have advised that use of the aircraft flaring tool for the 6 mm tubing requires the use of a small piece of 400 grit (or close) wet-or-dry wrapped around the tubing to take up the .014” clearance. A small pain in the ass but not a problem. For the 8mm tubing the 5/16 setting is just fine.
Perhaps Warren could advise if he has found a metric AIRCRAFT flaring tool which would be great! The standard (non-aircraft) metric flare is 90 deg. (inc. angle) while all aircraft (including the CJ) use the universal aircraft standard of 37.5 degs. (75 deg. inc.).
The Parker aircraft flaring tool is an excellent device and will give you perfect flares every time.
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 4:33 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Many thanks, Warren Blitz Fox 415-307-2405
On Jan 27, 2019, at 10:31 AM, Mark Pennington <pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com (pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Agree with all. Been there done that, proudly wear the T-shirt.
I would add. Talk to Doug about his final filter design made from check valves.
I have those in my plane. Cured dirty tubing etc. Love Doug’s final filter.
Mark Pennington
N621CJ
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ. • Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains. • New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go. • Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point. • Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure. • Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious. • Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year. • Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis. • Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious. • Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well. • Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks. • Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof. Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand. Warren HillN464TWMesa, AZ> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)>> > Some feedback on the starting problem:> We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292> > > > > > > > > ===========List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List===========FORUMS -eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com===========WIKI -errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com===========b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=========== |
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:49 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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My bad! Sorry.
It’s ATS (Aircraft Tool Supply)
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 5:55 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Walt, I’m ignorant. What’s TAS?
Blitz Fox 415-307-2405
On Jan 27, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: | Blitz;
Parker 37 deg. Flaring tool. On sale at TAS for $99.00.
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 9:00 AM
To: Yak LIst (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>
For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ.
• Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains.
• New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go.
• Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point.
• Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure.
• Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious.
• Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year.
• Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis.
• Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious.
• Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well.
• Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks.
• Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof.
Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ
===========
List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
Virus-free. www.avast.com
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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hill(at)doctor-hill.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:30 pm Post subject: Starting Problems |
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For 6 mm tubing, the ROL-AIR IMP.507-FBM will do a 37 degree metric flare.
For ¼ inch tubing, I like the Rigid 337.
Warren
| Quote: | On Jan 27, 2019, at 7:48 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
My bad! Sorry.
It’s ATS (Aircraft Tool Supply)
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 5:55 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Walt, I’m ignorant. What’s TAS? Blitz Fox 415-307-2405
On Jan 27, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: | Blitz;
Parker 37 deg. Flaring tool. On sale at TAS for $99.00.
Walt
From: Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 9:00 AM
To: Yak LIst (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Starting Problems
Thanks Warren. Superb list. Where can I locate a flaring tool that compresses rather than stretches? I have a cheapo one of the latter variety that I've never liked.
Also, my recollection is that Doug Sapp recommends cod liver oil to lubricate the system. I gather though that you've had success with the alcohol/glycerine formula over the years.
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 7:19 AM Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | --> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)>For both the Yak and the CJ, the pneumatic system is one of the most important aspects, but almost continuously problematic. Over the years, I ended up replacing every check and shuttle value and pretty much all of the tubing before a long list of constantly appearing problems finally disappeared. Replaced the starter solenoid valve early in the game. Just comes with the territory. Here are some thoughts after years of work one the pneumatic system of my CJ. • Use the highest quality tubing you can find. Avoid inexpensive, thin wall bargains. • New B-nuts and collars from Doug Sapp is the way to go. • Flaring tool that compresses the base of the flare rather than stretches it. Avoids creating a failure point. • Secure the tubing with Adel clamps. Vibration is the most common cause of failure. • Replace/rebuild the check/shuttle values at regular intervals. Corrosion is insidious. • Don’t forget to service the air/water separator twice a year. • Lubricate the system with 50-50 mixture of 98% alcohol and glycerine every 3-4 months if you fly on a regular basis. • Get/borrow an ultrasonic leak detector. Will uncover much more than is obvious. • Replace old rubber/cloth actuator and brake lines. They do not age well. • Bypass everything in the aft cockpit. Not needed and just another source of potential leaks. • Replace the main and emergency air tanks with new from Doug Sapp. Close to failure-proof. Do not get frustrated when some part of the pneumatic system fails. This is what we signed up for when purchasing these airplanes. Just fix it and move on. However, over time be proactive and plan to replace prior to failure the oldest parts, even if they are working. It’s not really if they will fail but rather when it will happen. To my way of thinking, it’s easiest to do this beforehand. Warren HillN464TWMesa, AZ> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 AM, Stressmerchant <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:> > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Stressmerchant" <mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk (mike_beresford(at)yahoo.co.uk)>> > Some feedback on the starting problem:> We eventually replaced the solenoid valve, and the starting improved. Still not as good as I'd like it, but on most days I can get a start without having to drag the scuba cylinder out.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487292#487292> > > > > > > > > ===========List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List===========FORUMS -eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com===========WIKI -errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com===========b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=========== |
-- ... Blitz
Byron M. Fox
Director, VP
TDA Investment Group, Inc
415-307-2405
Virus-free. www.avast.com
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|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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