Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Back-Up Battery

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

nickc(at)mtaonline.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:44 pm Post subject: Back-Up Battery

Kolbers,



I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?



Thanks,



Nick Cassara 

Palmer, Alaska 99645



607AK

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:43 pm Post subject: Back-Up Battery

Nick, Try the Aeroelectric Connection also on Matronics.



Rick

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:45 PM Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)>

 

 Kolbers,

 

 I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

 

 Thanks,

 

 Nick Cassara 

 Palmer, Alaska 99645

 

 607AK

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”   Groucho Marx

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:56 pm Post subject: Back-Up Battery

Good advice; that is the ultimate       source for electrical info.

       

       Having said that, quite a few RV-x drivers use them. 

       

       Having said *that*, do you mind telling us how you'll be using it       (beyond the obvious 'backup')? There may be less expensive       alternatives.

       

       Charlie

       

       On 2/11/2019 7:42 PM, Richard Girard wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Nick, Try the Aeroelectric Connection also on         Matronics.         

         

         Rick

       

       

                On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:45           PM Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)> wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		  -->           Kolb-List message posted by: Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)>

           

           Kolbers,

           

           I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if           anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

           

           Thanks,

           

           Nick Cassara 

           Palmer, Alaska 99645

         	
       

     	
     

     	          		Virus-free. www.avast.com 		 	 [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:21 am Post subject: Back-Up Battery

Well Nick, I installed a Aerovoltz iron lithium ion battery in my Firestar last year. The battery is very small and light 1.3 lbs. I use it as my primary battery. It starts my Hirth 2702 without a problem. The battery is relatively inexpensive, they come in variety of different sizes. I did also order the special balancing charger. I highly recommend this system. I bought it from Aircraft Spruce. They actually had the best price.

George Helton 

Firestar, 2702 Hirth 

14GDH 

Mesick, Michigan 

gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:44 PM, Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Kolbers,

 

 I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

 

 Thanks,

 

 Nick Cassara 

 Palmer, Alaska 99645

 

 607AK

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

Jerry-TS-MkII

Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Back-Up Battery

Hey guys...

Just to add some generic info about li-ion batteries and their care and feeding.  Unlike lead-acid or ni-cad or ni-mh, lithium-ion cells are more critical of under voltage, over-voltage, or over-current.  Most cells have a protective device that does not allow them to go below a certain cut-off voltage, or to be charged too high.  But for starting a engine, most of those high capacity cells do not include that same protection device.  If charged over 4.2v per cell, they can be damaged.  If allowed to discharge below 3.3 they can also be damaged.  Most consider 3.6-3.7 as a minimum cut-off.  A pack can be assembled with high discharge cells using 18650 size, with up to 20-30A max current per string.  IE 3 cells in series will net 11.1 - 12.6 volts.  Multiple parallel sets can boost the current.  But.. you will want to add a circuit which protects them, both in discharge and re-charge voltage, and to keep each group of cells balanced, and the discharge current within limits.



The use of a diode, feeding a aux pack into the buss will keep it "out of the circuit" until the main battery drops enough that the aux is .5-.6v above it.. where the diode will then begin to conduct and provide current.  That DOES NOT charge the cells however, as the diode is a one way device.  And another factor, is that if your primary circuit or buss has a high drain problem or failure, THAT needs to be isolated first.  Otherwise your back-up battery won't last very long.  Some will use 2 packs that are switched so that one is charged.. while the other is active in circuit.  Both can be used in parallel with high power diodes, for starting purposes.



Up-side to li-ion.. they do have a long life when not in use.  Ni-cads and Ni-Mh are both much worse at self discharge, and ni-cads bad about "memory" of not cycled fully.  But none of the new high density technologies are without their particulars.  Lithium polymer just tend to catch on fire if mistreated.  Jerry

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

baberdk

Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:30 am Post subject: Back-Up Battery

Good info on Lithium batteries. Also, they need to have the cells "balanced". They only charge until the cell with the most charge is charged and only discharge until the cell with the least cell is discharged. If there is a great difference between the cells it will seem like the capacity is reduced so it is a good idea to balance the cells on the ground to increase capacity. We only need the battery to use the starting motor but it is a nice back-up if the charging system fails. The Rotax has two ignition systems that are independent from the charging system and each other so I haven't heard of ignition failures as much as fuel problems. Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries.



Respectfully,

Dennis Baber

Cape Coral, Fl

baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)

305-814-7218

Stay Curious

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:29 am Post subject: Back-Up Battery

I installed a Aerovoltz iron lithium battery in my redrive VW powered Kolb MKIIIC in the summer of 2014. The battery has provided great service. The plane sits all winter while I'm in Florida and shows no measurable discharge. I take my balancing charger out to the plane every spring and check the battery cell balance. So far the voltages are within .1 volts and the balance charger can't improve that balance. These LiFe batteries don't seem to catch fire but they don't like to be over charged so I monitor the voltage while flying. Areovoltz has published a advisory to not use their batteries with some Rotax charging systems that have caused a battery melt down. The battery weighs 10lbs less than my old lead acid batteries and has lasted one year longer so far. 

Denny I don't understand what you are trying to say "Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries"

Rick Neisen

Redrive WV Powered MKIIIC

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Good info on Lithium batteries. Also, they need to have the cells "balanced". They only charge until the cell with the most charge is charged and only discharge until the cell with the least cell is discharged. If there is a great difference between the cells it will seem like the capacity is reduced so it is a good idea to balance the cells on the ground to increase capacity. We only need the battery to use the starting motor but it is a nice back-up if the charging system fails. The Rotax has two ignition systems that are independent from the charging system and each other so I haven't heard of ignition failures as much as fuel problems. Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries.



Respectfully,

Dennis Baber

Cape Coral, Fl

baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)

305-814-7218

Stay Curious

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

Jerry-TS-MkII

Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Indiana

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Back-Up Battery

Reference cell balancing:

A small PC board is included in most serious "cordless" applications.  Multi-function.  During discharge, it measures the total output current, and limits that. Much like a active resettable fuse. Most are not adjustable, but instead selected for the particular application current.  Cells can be assembled in parallel to boost current capacity, but that is not ideal, unless each has it's own current control, and tied together with high current diodes.  Still basically in parallel, but also protected.  And each cell voltage is monitored, and if one cell is higher than others, a small leakage current is established, that lowers the high cell voltage.  It is minimal loss.  The device also watches the minimum total voltage and will shut it down, if too low.



During charge, the charging current and profile is regulated, AND the cells are kept balanced, again by slight current bypass, for any cells which are too high.



If you simply take a rectified alternator output it will always be higher voltage than the peak system battery voltage, to charge it to the max. (approx 13.8 for lead acid).  With any of the high energy density cells, the charge regime is very specific for the type of chemistry being charged.  So that is why the above control board is used (required), to charge properly, from a poorly regulated engine source.  And also why one pack can be "on-line" while the other is charging unencumbered to it's proper maximum voltage and rate.  With most of these cells having a voltage of about 4 volts.. 3 cells will never be higher than 12.6V.  If a diode is used, that will drop .5-.6 volts so the 3 cells will supply 12.1 max, down to 10.5. Some equipment can stand the higher voltage provided by 4 cells (16.8 minus .5-.6 for 16.2 max).  A starter motor would probably be fine with the slightly higher voltage.  Electronic devices are usually regulated internally but.. look at the specs before proceeding.



Switching supplies can be used to boost or drop the battery voltage.. but that adds significant complexity and cost for the high current applications.



The battery control boards are mass produced, and rather inexpensive.  Each will have specific cell count, and output current range.

Jerry

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:10 pm Post subject: Back-Up Battery

George 2Which aerovoltz battery do you have and what did t cost ? Thank u Chris 



Sent from my iPhone



On Feb 14, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I installed a Aerovoltz iron lithium battery in my redrive VW powered Kolb MKIIIC in the summer of 2014. The battery has provided great service. The plane sits all winter while I'm in Florida and shows no measurable discharge. I take my balancing charger out to the plane every spring and check the battery cell balance. So far the voltages are within .1 volts and the balance charger can't improve that balance. These LiFe batteries don't seem to catch fire but they don't like to be over charged so I monitor the voltage while flying. Areovoltz has published a advisory to not use their batteries with some Rotax charging systems that have caused a battery melt down. The battery weighs 10lbs less than my old lead acid batteries and has lasted one year longer so far. 

Denny I don't understand what you are trying to say "Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries"

Rick Neisen

Redrive WV Powered MKIIIC

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Good info on Lithium batteries. Also, they need to have the cells "balanced". They only charge until the cell with the most charge is charged and only discharge until the cell with the least cell is discharged. If there is a great difference between the cells it will seem like the capacity is reduced so it is a good idea to balance the cells on the ground to increase capacity. We only need the battery to use the starting motor but it is a nice back-up if the charging system fails. The Rotax has two ignition systems that are independent from the charging system and each other so I haven't heard of ignition failures as much as fuel problems. Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries.



Respectfully,

Dennis Baber

Cape Coral, Fl

baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)

305-814-7218

Stay Curious

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum