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romaine_richard(at)yahoo.
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it’s been a while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
I’ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling out on final, runway made.
I can’t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&(at); that will drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or “we’ve always done it that way”, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can’t think of a good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
I’ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
Cheers,
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
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jonboede(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an overhead, or at the same position (“short final”) with a longer or more square pattern.
I’ve always said the CJ has a “Fred Flintstone Flap” that’s more of an air brake than a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
Jon
| Quote: | On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it’s been a while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
I’ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling out on final, runway made.
I can’t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&(at); that will drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or “we’ve always done it that way”, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can’t think of a good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
I’ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
Cheers,
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Jon,Sorry I cannot agree, I watched the late Joe Howse put a pair of small Styrofoam blocks under the flaps and get out of a pretty short strip. A "normal" CJ pilot would have been looking for a trucker, but that was Joe, your mileage may vary. As I recall I think he later installed a sequential flap valve in his CJ so he could obtain any flap setting he wanted. His old CJ is still around the PNW I think, maybe with Gary Hagstrom??
Getting back to Rich's point, I would have to say that I agree. During my engine out I left the flap up until I saw leaves over the leading edge, then dumped them hoping for a slight boost to get me over the last row of apple trees--did not happen, it was like you shot it right between the eyes. Had I been able to lower the flap only 10 to 20 degrees I might have pulled it off.
Doug
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)>
I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an overhead, or at the same position (“short final”) with a longer or more square pattern.
I’ve always said the CJ has a “Fred Flintstone Flap” that’s more of an air brake than a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
Jon
> On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)>
>
> Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it’s been a while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
>
> I’ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling out on final, runway made.
>
> I can’t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&(at); that will drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or “we’ve always done it that way”, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can’t think of a good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
>
> If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
>
> I’ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
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draftsjust417(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Personally speaking, I've had consistent, stable success with dropping flap/barndoor on semi-short final.
I consider it more of a spoiler than the modified airfoil surface that the term "flap" implies.
But, take this as just 1 novice Red pilot's opinion.
Justin Drafts
N280NC
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 2:28 PM, Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: Jon Boede <jonboede(at)hotmail.com (jonboede(at)hotmail.com)>
I have a CJ and I agree. Flaps down when rolling onto final during an overhead, or at the same position (“short final”) with a longer or more square pattern.
I’ve always said the CJ has a “Fred Flintstone Flap” that’s more of an air brake than a proper flap. Flys much better with it up.
Jon
> On Jun 20, 2018, at 5:18 PM, Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)>
>
> Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it’s been a while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
>
> I’ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling out on final, runway made.
>
> I can’t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&(at); that will drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or “we’ve always done it that way”, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can’t think of a good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
>
> If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
>
> I’ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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So this is my opinion and worth every penny you paid for it...
I didn't see much of an issue with the flap down stall, then again I
think the CJ talks well to the pilot in all areas of the envelope.
After getting comfortable with the CJ I typically did all my landings
from the perch (gear and flaps down) and power off. I figured that if I
could consistently make the landing from there without power, should a
problem occur I'd be ready. Now remember most of this time in the CJ
was with the M14P or M14PF and 3 bladed prop, so there was not much
more glide power off than a greased manhole cover. But it also worked
with the 2 bladed Housai. Where ever possible I flew a high approach to
be able to make the landing power off and then choose to put the gear
and flaps down when appropriate to make the field.
To new CJ pilots, I'll leave the instruction to ... instructors. But I
always found the CJ to do exactly what you told it to do and it talked
to you while doing so.
I don't have my CJ anymore, but I did plenty of stalls (clean and dirty)
and could predict when she would depart. I started flying the Yak-52 at
140 hours TT and the CJ at 440 TT. The CJ is a trainer and I never
found her to have a bad side like the 52 or the T6. Have you checked
your W&B?
Crayons are for Marines, we don't share....
Bear
On 6/20/2018 5:56 PM, Richard Romaine wrote:
| Quote: |
Realize not everyone on the list does the RPA thing and it’s been a while since I have, but wanted to toss out a discussion item on when to advise folks to drop flap on CJ. I noted a copy of RPA form manual v4.3 online and saw that that version states that in landing pattern flap should be down at abeam (arrivals, pg 35)
I’ve been advising anyone who asks that CJ flap should remain up until rolling out on final, runway made.
I can’t speak to YAK experience, but CJ flap up to down goes from a very talkative, forgiving airframe approaching stall to a silent b$&(at); that will drop out from under you with no warning and easily enters secondary stall(s). Other than habits from old/different airframes (or “we’ve always done it that way”, as seen in a few mishap reports), I can’t think of a good reason to risk the overshooting, distracted CJ newbie being set up for that scenario.
If you have a CJ and disagree, suggest you go out and try a flap down stall and see if you can predict the stall break and then gage it against what a new guy might be expected to anticipate.
I’ll now go sit in the corner with my crayons...
Cheers,
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
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cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:03 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Same here, Jon!
An important point to pay attention to when dropping the flaps and rolling into final during an overhead is to watch for crosswind drift and not tighten the turn to 'make' the runway...
With gear and flap down in a steep descending turn and low power, stall speed increases markedly... forward stick pressure to maintain speed and ball in the center is 'wise'... all the above more critical at higher elevations.
FWIW,
Sam Sax
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romaine_richard(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:54 am Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Thx for replies comparing notes.
Bear,
After 1000+ CJ hours/landings believe my experience is more about the airflow behavior over wing and the fact you lose the warning of the stab/elevator getting hit by the pre-stall burble...all my breaks (every flight) to power off are more aggressive than RPA standard, so don’t think it’s a question of being able to manage energy, just the binary personality change that I think should be better communicated to the new CJ bubba as well as perhaps update a casual mention in a respected community reference.
Cheers,
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Rich,
I'm not being argumentative, I've flown with you and respect your skills
and thoughts. I think we both are/were flying the approach/landing the
same aggressive way. Cheers on that...
As to the "new CJ buba" ... first I wouldn't recommend just jumping into
the CJ without instruction. But either way they should climb to
altitude and work the stall/spin exercises in all configurations (with
KNOWLEDGEABLE CJ instructor). That all said....
I never saw a negative aspect to the dirty (flaps/gear out) stall
characteristics. The break was easily felt. In other words, I didn't
see/feel a binary personality change. Are other CJ drivers finding
that an issue? Seriously interested to hear if my experience (1400+
hours in the CJ) is different from the CJ driver population.
listening and still have my crayons.
Bear
On 6/21/2018 4:53 AM, Richard Romaine wrote:
| Quote: |
Thx for replies comparing notes.
Bear,
After 1000+ CJ hours/landings believe my experience is more about the airflow behavior over wing and the fact you lose the warning of the stab/elevator getting hit by the pre-stall burble...all my breaks (every flight) to power off are more aggressive than RPA standard, so don’t think it’s a question of being able to manage energy, just the binary personality change that I think should be better communicated to the new CJ bubba as well as perhaps update a casual mention in a respected community reference.
Cheers,
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
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pennington.construction.i
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Yak list
I am a new CJ pilot. Only about 70 hours over the past year and a half.
I did fly with Barry Hancock in Utah for a week and stalls were part of the training.
Flew the CJ acrosss country with Barry in the back. By the time I got to Virginia felt pretty good in the plane.
I have since flown the plane to a full stall in any configuration you can think of. During my BFR learned the falling leaf. Have been checked out for CJ aerobatics.
I find the CJ very docile and easy to read.
I land the CJ like described. High and fast pull power and turn in.
I am not a high time pilot. But I find the CJ easy to stay in front of with no real bad habits.
Mark
Richmond Va
N621CJ
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 6:21 PM dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org) <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>
Rich,
I'm not being argumentative, I've flown with you and respect your skills
and thoughts. I think we both are/were flying the approach/landing the
same aggressive way. Cheers on that...
As to the "new CJ buba" ... first I wouldn't recommend just jumping into
the CJ without instruction. But either way they should climb to
altitude and work the stall/spin exercises in all configurations (with
KNOWLEDGEABLE CJ instructor). That all said....
I never saw a negative aspect to the dirty (flaps/gear out) stall
characteristics. The break was easily felt. In other words, I didn't
see/feel a binary personality change. Are other CJ drivers finding
that an issue? Seriously interested to hear if my experience (1400+
hours in the CJ) is different from the CJ driver population.
listening and still have my crayons.
Bear
On 6/21/2018 4:53 AM, Richard Romaine wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)>
>
> Thx for replies comparing notes.
>
> Bear,
> After 1000+ CJ hours/landings believe my experience is more about the airflow behavior over wing and the fact you lose the warning of the stab/elevator getting hit by the pre-stall burble...all my breaks (every flight) to power off are more aggressive than RPA standard, so don’t think it’s a question of being able to manage energy, just the binary personality change that I think should be better communicated to the new CJ bubba as well as perhaps update a casual mention in a respected community reference.
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
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captPod
Joined: 06 Jan 2014
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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I’ve had my CJ almost ten years now, so not a newbie.. First off, the formation manual is not the “Maneuvers Manual” which should be referenced for clear guidance on flying the CJ.The info in the Formation Manual is derived from a mathematical approach found in various sections of that manual. In trying to explain and teach the circling rejoin defining the break interval times, converting to distances in trail, defining the distance of the turn radius were extensively used to help visualize what led to what when flying the plane in the rejoin.
About the same time RPA published a new “standardized” overhead break procedure, Same author... that found its way into the form manual. It helped somewhat to keep wingmen from going wide abeam on downwind but a lot of us felt the procedure put us a bit close abeam.
Bottom line, you are the pilot in command. Don’t do something that makes you uncomfortable. Thanks for bringing this up and asking questions. Good discussion from the group regarding flaps and practice precautionary approaches. Like to see more of that here. MMO question will never be really settled anyway 
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 21, 2018, at 6:31 PM, Mark Pennington <pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com (pennington.construction.inc.1(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Yak list
I am a new CJ pilot. Only about 70 hours over the past year and a half.
I did fly with Barry Hancock in Utah for a week and stalls were part of the training.
Flew the CJ acrosss country with Barry in the back. By the time I got to Virginia felt pretty good in the plane.
I have since flown the plane to a full stall in any configuration you can think of. During my BFR learned the falling leaf. Have been checked out for CJ aerobatics.
I find the CJ very docile and easy to read.
I land the CJ like described. High and fast pull power and turn in.
I am not a high time pilot. But I find the CJ easy to stay in front of with no real bad habits.
Mark
Richmond Va
N621CJ
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 6:21 PM dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org) <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)" <dabear(at)damned.org (dabear(at)damned.org)>
Rich,
I'm not being argumentative, I've flown with you and respect your skills
and thoughts. I think we both are/were flying the approach/landing the
same aggressive way. Cheers on that...
As to the "new CJ buba" ... first I wouldn't recommend just jumping into
the CJ without instruction. But either way they should climb to
altitude and work the stall/spin exercises in all configurations (with
KNOWLEDGEABLE CJ instructor). That all said....
I never saw a negative aspect to the dirty (flaps/gear out) stall
characteristics. The break was easily felt. In other words, I didn't
see/feel a binary personality change. Are other CJ drivers finding
that an issue? Seriously interested to hear if my experience (1400+
hours in the CJ) is different from the CJ driver population.
listening and still have my crayons.
Bear
On 6/21/2018 4:53 AM, Richard Romaine wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: Richard Romaine <romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com (romaine_richard(at)yahoo.com)>
>
> Thx for replies comparing notes.
>
> Bear,
> After 1000+ CJ hours/landings believe my experience is more about the airflow behavior over wing and the fact you lose the warning of the stab/elevator getting hit by the pre-stall burble...all my breaks (every flight) to power off are more aggressive than RPA standard, so don’t think it’s a question of being able to manage energy, just the binary personality change that I think should be better communicated to the new CJ bubba as well as perhaps update a casual mention in a respected community reference.
>
> Cheers,
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
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===========
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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romaine_richard(at)yahoo.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:26 am Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Bear,
No issues, discussion is one worth having, hope you didn't eat all the crayons yet...
//
I agree with everyone that the CJ has the personality of a chocolate lab, give it 1500' and it will recover from any attitude/airspeed and want you to do it again. Also agree the CJ flap really is just a speed brake that bangs up or down, and energy management off the perch with the CJ flap up or down isn't particularly hard. My note is, that at least for my airframe, it's not quite as forgiving with the flap down and it's worth planting the seed for other folks to think about it.
I think the RPA abeam flap recommendation comes from community experience in other airframes where you needed the flap at approach speeds and didn't want a long duration transition thru your turn or on final. Me personally, I like having the extra margin with the flap up when I'm close to the ground still maneuvering. If I'm boneheaded enough to tickle the stall in the base to final that day, I'm probably boneheaded enough to pull right back into a secondary stall that's more likely with the flap down. Flap up it would be a non-event, so I leave the flap alone until pretty much lined up, dump it, accept the pitch change and continue.
While we have no "mandatory procedures" outside FARs (or insurance company preferences for having the gear down before landing), and it is strongly recommended to have a CJ experienced instructor, it's still good to critique "accepted practices" because sometimes there's room for improvement...where I came from our NATOPS was a living breathing collection of test pilot/engineering and corporate knowledge, often learned from bad events, but hopefully prevented by good ideas from the peanut gallery instead.
Cheers,
Rich
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motoadve
Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 123
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:12 am Post subject: Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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What does the CJ 6 Chinese manual says about deploying flaps for landing?
I have been deploying flaps on my base turn, I use an angle of attack indicator, and see it increases the angle of attack, so I push the nose at the same time as deploying flaps.
Deploying on final does not sound like a bad idea.
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romaine_richard(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:03 am Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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In my CJ at least, it is very talkative flaps up via stick feel of burble that stall is impending. Flaps down it just stops flying without a hint. Suggest going to altitude and trying stalls flaps up/down to note how yours behaves.
Given that our flap transition is “bang” up or down, I wait until my base turn is complete...I also think twice about using it in strong gust conditions.
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
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Harv
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:16 am Post subject: Re: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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I’ve often thought the flap in the cj bangs down too quickly and it would benefit from adding a restrictor perhaps to slow it down
Personally I only deploy it on short final
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pennington.construction.i
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| Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:53 am Post subject: CJ abeam, flap up/down |
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Ditto. On short final when I know I made the runway. I like the way the plane flies with that procedure.
Mark
On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 9:22 AM Harv <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Harv" <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)>
I’ve often thought he flap in the cj bangs down too quickly and it would benefit from adding a restrictor perhap.
Personally I only deploy it on short final
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