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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:30 am Post subject: Maneuvers

I know that most 2 place RVs are considered designed for aerobatic 

maneuvers, and the RV-10 is not. However, having looked for awhile, I 

find nothing indicating where that line is drawn. Not even sure where 

such information might be found.

I would "assume" that most or all commercial maneuvers are acceptable 

for the 10. Then comes what may or may not have been tested with regard 

to spins. I haven't found anything that explicitly says they are 

prohibited, or something less. I'm guessing that during the development 

Vans may have done a little testing, but just don't find any guidance.

I'm not looking to do any thing beyond commercial maneuvers, just would 

like to have more information on what to try to avoid. Perhaps some of 

the early builders may have more information?

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Maneuvers

The previous version of the Vans website had a lot more info about the development and testing of the -10.  I don’t recall details, but the yellow factory -10 was outfitted for a spin chute to support their testing.  I recall it mentioned that the -10 recovered nicely and the spin recovery chute was never needed.  Maybe a call to Van’s would answer your questions.



Bob

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:18 am Post subject: Maneuvers

I don't really have any references to cite, just things I've heard for

years on the email list.



I'd always heard that Van's did test the RV-10 for spins, and either

it was found that it required a spin chute for guaranteed recovery, or

that when they tested it they had a spin chute.  I don't have the

details on it, unfortunately.  But I did hear that they do not state

that spins were approved in the RV-10, so I've never spun mine.



I had not heard the same thing regarding the RV-14, so I've done

spins in that plane, although I've never let it wind up more

than a couple turns.  The RV-14 does recover very easily if you're

only into it for a couple turns, but the rudder seems significantly

larger overall than the -10.



I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I am guessing it is

really just based on G loading.  The RV-10, from the Van's site

shows +3.8/-1.5G for standard category limitations.



The many of the other 2 seat RV's show +6.0/-3.0G when in the

aerobatic category, and the overall design was for the utility

category of +4.4/-1.75G.



All that is from this link:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/flying-an-rv/



So my guess is the G-loading is really the only significant difference,

with the exception of course that perhaps the RV-10 doesn't spin

recover as well.   I am sure the RV-10 could potentially perform

many of the same maneuvers that you would do in an RV-14, but

you would be very close to the margins with the RV-10 even when

done correctly for some of them, so it wouldn't be advised.

I've been to at least 4.1G in the RV-14, for instance, and that

would be over the limit for the RV-10.



Tim





On 8/19/19 9:29 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I know that most 2 place RVs are considered designed for aerobatic 

 maneuvers, and the RV-10 is not. However, having looked for awhile, I 

 find nothing indicating where that line is drawn. Not even sure where 

 such information might be found.

 I would "assume" that most or all commercial maneuvers are acceptable 

 for the 10. Then comes what may or may not have been tested with regard 

 to spins. I haven't found anything that explicitly says they are 

 prohibited, or something less. I'm guessing that during the development 

 Vans may have done a little testing, but just don't find any guidance.

 I'm not looking to do any thing beyond commercial maneuvers, just would 

 like to have more information on what to try to avoid. Perhaps some of 

 the early builders may have more information?

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: Maneuvers

Thanks to The WayBack Machine, I have attached is a .pdf (that I created) from the old Van's website.  It contains information on the development of the RV-10 and there is a photo of the prototype aircraft with a spin chute attached to it.  I don't see any information on the tests, but there is proof that it was adapted with a chute for testing.



I'm really providing the .pdf so this information is not lost forever.  There's some good info in there that we will find useful until the final -10 is no longer airworthy.  It was basically a blog on 8 pages of their site, so there may be a couple of spots in their narrative where the text appears to be disjointed.

I'll keep poking around to see if I can find anything definitive on the spin testing results (or anything else significant).

Phil

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:23 AM Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 

 I don't really have any references to cite, just things I've heard for

 years on the email list.

 

 I'd always heard that Van's did test the RV-10 for spins, and either

 it was found that it required a spin chute for guaranteed recovery, or

 that when they tested it they had a spin chute.  I don't have the

 details on it, unfortunately.  But I did hear that they do not state

 that spins were approved in the RV-10, so I've never spun mine.

 

 I had not heard the same thing regarding the RV-14, so I've done

 spins in that plane, although I've never let it wind up more

 than a couple turns.  The RV-14 does recover very easily if you're

 only into it for a couple turns, but the rudder seems significantly

 larger overall than the -10.

 

 I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I am guessing it is

 really just based on G loading.  The RV-10, from the Van's site

 shows +3.8/-1.5G for standard category limitations.

 

 The many of the other 2 seat RV's show +6.0/-3.0G when in the

 aerobatic category, and the overall design was for the utility

 category of +4.4/-1.75G.

 

 All that is from this link:

 https://www.vansaircraft.com/flying-an-rv/

 

 So my guess is the G-loading is really the only significant difference,

 with the exception of course that perhaps the RV-10 doesn't spin

 recover as well.   I am sure the RV-10 could potentially perform

 many of the same maneuvers that you would do in an RV-14, but

 you would be very close to the margins with the RV-10 even when

 done correctly for some of them, so it wouldn't be advised.

 I've been to at least 4.1G in the RV-14, for instance, and that

 would be over the limit for the RV-10.

 

 Tim

 

 

 

 

 On 8/19/19 9:29 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 > 

 > I know that most 2 place RVs are considered designed for aerobatic 

 > maneuvers, and the RV-10 is not. However, having looked for awhile, I 

 > find nothing indicating where that line is drawn. Not even sure where 

 > such information might be found.

 > I would "assume" that most or all commercial maneuvers are acceptable 

 > for the 10. Then comes what may or may not have been tested with regard 

 > to spins. I haven't found anything that explicitly says they are 

 > prohibited, or something less. I'm guessing that during the development 

 > Vans may have done a little testing, but just don't find any guidance.

 > I'm not looking to do any thing beyond commercial maneuvers, just would 

 > like to have more information on what to try to avoid. Perhaps some of 

 > the early builders may have more information?

 

 

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 



Phil Perry, EAA Lifetime #834284

President, EAA Chapter 59 - Waco, Texas

EAA—The Spirit of Aviation

VansRV10_Development.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

VansRV10_Development.pdf

Filesize:

1.03 MB

Downloaded:

705 Time(s)

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:35 am Post subject: Maneuvers

Thanks for posting the .pdf Phil, I've saved it myself so that we have 

at least a couple copies of it.

Tim



On 8/19/19 11:05 AM, Phil Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks to The WayBack Machine, I have attached is a .pdf (that I 

 created) from the old Van's website.  It contains information on the 

 development of the RV-10 and there is a photo of the prototype aircraft 

 with a spin chute attached to it.  I don't see any information on the 

 tests, but there is proof that it was adapted with a chute for testing.

 

 I'm really providing the .pdf so this information is not lost forever.  

 There's some good info in there that we will find useful until the final 

 -10 is no longer airworthy.  It was basically a blog on 8 pages of their 

 site, so there may be a couple of spots in their narrative where the 

 text appears to be disjointed.

 

 I'll keep poking around to see if I can find anything definitive on the 

 spin testing results (or anything else significant).

 

 Phil

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:23 pm Post subject: Maneuvers

Thanks Phil. Good material.

Kelly



On 8/19/2019 9:05 AM, Phil Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks to The WayBack Machine, I have attached is a .pdf (that I 

 created) from the old Van's website.  It contains information on the 

 development of the RV-10 and there is a photo of the prototype aircraft 

 with a spin chute attached to it.  I don't see any information on the 

 tests, but there is proof that it was adapted with a chute for testing.

 

 I'm really providing the .pdf so this information is not lost forever.  

 There's some good info in there that we will find useful until the final 

 -10 is no longer airworthy.  It was basically a blog on 8 pages of their 

 site, so there may be a couple of spots in their narrative where the 

 text appears to be disjointed.

 

 I'll keep poking around to see if I can find anything definitive on the 

 spin testing results (or anything else significant).

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:23 AM Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com 

 <mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>> wrote:

 

     

 

     I don't really have any references to cite, just things I've heard for

     years on the email list.

 

     I'd always heard that Van's did test the RV-10 for spins, and either

     it was found that it required a spin chute for guaranteed recovery, or

     that when they tested it they had a spin chute.  I don't have the

     details on it, unfortunately.  But I did hear that they do not state

     that spins were approved in the RV-10, so I've never spun mine.

 

     I had not heard the same thing regarding the RV-14, so I've done

     spins in that plane, although I've never let it wind up more

     than a couple turns.  The RV-14 does recover very easily if you're

     only into it for a couple turns, but the rudder seems significantly

     larger overall than the -10.

 

     I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I am guessing it is

     really just based on G loading.  The RV-10, from the Van's site

     shows +3.8/-1.5G for standard category limitations.

 

     The many of the other 2 seat RV's show +6.0/-3.0G when in the

     aerobatic category, and the overall design was for the utility

     category of +4.4/-1.75G.

 

     All that is from this link:

     https://www.vansaircraft.com/flying-an-rv/

 

     So my guess is the G-loading is really the only significant difference,

     with the exception of course that perhaps the RV-10 doesn't spin

     recover as well.   I am sure the RV-10 could potentially perform

     many of the same maneuvers that you would do in an RV-14, but

     you would be very close to the margins with the RV-10 even when

     done correctly for some of them, so it wouldn't be advised.

     I've been to at least 4.1G in the RV-14, for instance, and that

     would be over the limit for the RV-10.

 

     Tim

 

 

 

 

     On 8/19/19 9:29 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

      > 

     <kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>>

      >

      > I know that most 2 place RVs are considered designed for aerobatic

      > maneuvers, and the RV-10 is not. However, having looked for

     awhile, I

      > find nothing indicating where that line is drawn. Not even sure

     where

      > such information might be found.

      > I would "assume" that most or all commercial maneuvers are

     acceptable

      > for the 10. Then comes what may or may not have been tested with

     regard

      > to spins. I haven't found anything that explicitly says they are

      > prohibited, or something less. I'm guessing that during the

     development

      > Vans may have done a little testing, but just don't find any

     guidance.

      > I'm not looking to do any thing beyond commercial maneuvers, just

     would

      > like to have more information on what to try to avoid. Perhaps

     some of

      > the early builders may have more information?

 

 

     ===========

     -List" rel="noreferrer"

     target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

     ===========

     FORUMS -

     eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

     ===========

     WIKI -

     errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

     ===========

     b Site -

                -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

     rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     ===========

 

 

 

 

 

 -- 

 

 */Phil Perry, /*EAA Lifetime #834284

 

 President, EAA Chapter 59 - Waco, Texas____

 

 EAA—/The Spirit of Aviation/

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:54 am Post subject: Maneuvers

Phil found and pointed me to a very interesting discussion on VAF from 

12 years ago:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=86829



Also, in the current issue of AOPA Pilot Barry Schiff has an interesting 

article on what he had to demonstrate to a CAA examiner for spins on his 

CFI ride many moons ago. Enlightened me as to the many different ways to 

get into a spin.



On 8/19/2019 9:05 AM, Phil Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks to The WayBack Machine, I have attached is a .pdf (that I 

 created) from the old Van's website.  It contains information on the 

 development of the RV-10 and there is a photo of the prototype aircraft 

 with a spin chute attached to it.  I don't see any information on the 

 tests, but there is proof that it was adapted with a chute for testing.

 

 I'm really providing the .pdf so this information is not lost forever.  

 There's some good info in there that we will find useful until the final 

 -10 is no longer airworthy.  It was basically a blog on 8 pages of their 

 site, so there may be a couple of spots in their narrative where the 

 text appears to be disjointed.

 

 I'll keep poking around to see if I can find anything definitive on the 

 spin testing results (or anything else significant).

 

 Phil

 

 

 

 

 On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:23 AM Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com 

 <mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>> wrote:

 

     

 

     I don't really have any references to cite, just things I've heard for

     years on the email list.

 

     I'd always heard that Van's did test the RV-10 for spins, and either

     it was found that it required a spin chute for guaranteed recovery, or

     that when they tested it they had a spin chute.  I don't have the

     details on it, unfortunately.  But I did hear that they do not state

     that spins were approved in the RV-10, so I've never spun mine.

 

     I had not heard the same thing regarding the RV-14, so I've done

     spins in that plane, although I've never let it wind up more

     than a couple turns.  The RV-14 does recover very easily if you're

     only into it for a couple turns, but the rudder seems significantly

     larger overall than the -10.

 

     I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I am guessing it is

     really just based on G loading.  The RV-10, from the Van's site

     shows +3.8/-1.5G for standard category limitations.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Maneuvers

I suspect Vans is just following FAA rules for standard airplanes here. The -10 design load limit of 3.8+ is the same as Normal category. Normal category airplanes can be used for all the required commercial maneuvers, but, I think, the faa won’t approve anything less than Utility class for spins.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: Maneuvers

I am sure you are correct. I am just a little surprised that there is 

virtually no mention in any of the literature as to what Van's considers 

acceptable vs unacceptable. Seems like it would help limit their liability.



On 8/20/2019 10:35 AM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I suspect Vans is just following FAA rules for standard airplanes here. The -10 design load limit of 3.8+ is the same as Normal category. Normal category airplanes can be used for all the required commercial maneuvers, but, I think, the faa wonâ€™t approve anything less than Utility class for spins.

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490968#490968

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Maneuvers

I am not a lawyer. But I suspect that saying nothing is in their legal best interest. Remember, that legally, Vans is not an airplane manufacturer; they are a parts supplier. You and I are the manufacturer. Publishing anything at all opens them up to a claim that they are acting as a manufacturer, and the potential liability that goes with that.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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