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Parachute

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Mallard

Joined: 22 Oct 2019
Posts: 50
Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: Parachute

Hi guys and gals,

I'm new here as I've just recently purchased a Classic Tri-Gear with a Rotax 912S engine. 



I based in Ireland and you may or may not know that we recently had a tragedy in Co. Wexford (on the South East Coast) where 2 very experienced pilots (one was a very experienced instructor) were killed when their Rollason Condor broke up in mid air. 



This has made me think about Parachutes and I wondered if anyone has ever fitted one to a Europa or know of anyone doing it. Or if anyone has looked into the possibility/practicality of doing it.



Cheers

James

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Seat of my pants

freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: Parachute

No personal experience with Europa though flew a tailless biplane glider for years with a BRS chute...the Cirrus install is dependent upon moulded in joggles to accommodate the breakaway suspension straps... retrofitting same on Europa would be a challenge while maintaining fuselage structural integrity but probably doable by some adventurous lad...considerable weight penalty and, I suspect, significant regulatory hurdles which would rule out a one-off installation.



Not sure about Ireland, but in US we call it “experimental aviation”.



Good luck,



Fred



Sent from my iPhone 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 22, 2019, at 4:46 PM, Mallard <james(at)kingdom.ie> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi guys and gals,

 I'm new here as I've just recently purchased a Classic Tri-Gear with a Rotax 912S engine. 

 

 I based in Ireland and you may or may not know that we recently had a tragedy in Co. Wexford (on the South East Coast) where 2 very experienced pilots (one was a very experienced instructor) were killed when their Rollason Condor broke up in mid air. 

 This has made me think about Parachutes and I wondered if anyone has ever fitted one to a Europa or know of anyone doing it. Or if anyone has looked into the possibility/practicality of doing it.

 

 Cheers

 James

 

 --------

 Seat of my pants

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=491921#491921

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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barp99(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:07 pm Post subject: Parachute

Hi James,



I remember  back in 2007  a Europa owner, Miles McCallum, looked into a 

BRS install on a Classic. The Flier magazine was covering its install, 

much of the stress analysis & design was complete. The project was 

abandoned as far as I know.  As Fred said, fuselage integrity & 

considerable weight were issues. Retrofitting onto an existing completed 

airframe would also be much more difficult than during the build.



Cheers,



Brian Phillips.






No personal experience with Europa though flew a tailless biplane glider 

for years with a BRS chute...the Cirrus install is dependent upon 

moulded in joggles to accommodate the breakaway suspension straps... 

retrofitting same on Europa would be a challenge while maintaining 

fuselage structural integrity but probably doable by some adventurous 

lad...considerable weight penalty and, I suspect, significant regulatory 

hurdles which would rule out a one-off installation.



Not sure about Ireland, but in US we call it “experimental aviation”.



Good luck,



Fred



Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 22, 2019, at 4:46 PM, Mallard <james(at)kingdom.ie> wrote:



 



 Hi guys and gals,

 I'm new here as I've just recently purchased a Classic Tri-Gear with a 

 Rotax 912S engine.

 I based in Ireland and you may or may not know that we recently had a 

 tragedy in Co. Wexford (on the South East Coast) where 2 very 

 experienced pilots (one was a very experienced instructor) were killed 

 when their Rollason Condor broke up in mid air. This has made me think 

 about Parachutes and I wondered if anyone has ever fitted one to a 

 Europa or know of anyone doing it. Or if anyone has looked into the 

 possibility/practicality of doing it.



 Cheers

 James



 --------

 Seat of my pants





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=491921#491921

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Parachute

I did the engineering stress analysis of the Flyer BRS installation.  It was abandoned as it compromised the airframe and added mass.



If the Europa Mk3 was to be designed a BRS type system could be included with lower mass and fewer compromises.  



I provided content for the Flyer mag editions which chronicled the build, authored by Miles.



I intent to write a piece for the Europa magazine one of these days.  I am currently re-stressing the aircraft  and have a wing test rig and XS wing to perform a test to failure.



John Wighton

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

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_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Parachute

Hi James,



the PH-GOO (Trigear XS)  https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/registration/PH-GOO  has a BRS fitted, which is hooked to the engine frame and to two points of the wing spar on both sides of the cabin. However I wouldn't really trust the system as (I think) it has never been tested. Also the Cirrus CAPS has to be maintained in certain intervalls (line cutters replaced after 6 years, chute repacked after ??? years etc.). 



In my Europa I wear automatically deployed (ripchord is connected to a hook behind the seats) emergency parachutes RFB-TC1 http://www.buchsein.eu/?page_id=89   instead of seat cushions. They need to be repacked annually and they weight about 6 kg each. Price is about 2200 EUR each. Minimum height for full deployment is 80m AGL. I'm 1,82m tall and I fit in quite well (XS-version). I like the peace of mind to have this "last option" or "plan C" like I call it. If you manage to get out in time, you can count on it working >99 %. 



Cheers

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:03 am Post subject: Parachute

FWIW, personal chutes are my preference as well.... and use a custom Butler brand in my HB, and plan on getting them to make custom packs for my Europa in a wedge shape for the dead lumbar space as to not lose any seating space.  Butler does a fantastic job at custom packs, are reasonably priced, and have a patented slider to enable hi-speed deployment.

Roland's static line is an intriguing idea.....





Cheers,

Pete

C-GNPZ classic

A239 pile of dual wing parts



On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 5:36 AM Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>

 

 Hi James,

 

 the PH-GOO (Trigear XS)  https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/registration/PH-GOO  has a BRS fitted, which - when deployed - is hooked to the engine frame and to two points of the wing spar on both sides of the cabin. However I wouldn't really trust the system as (I think) it has never been tested. Also the Cirrus CAPS has to be maintained in certain intervalls (line cutters replaced after 6 years, chute repacked etc.). 

 

 In my Europa I wear automatically deployed (ripchord is connected to a hook behind the seats) emergency parachutes RFB-TC1http://www.buchsein.eu/?page_id=89   instead of seat cushions. They need to be repacked annually and they weight about 6 kg each. Price is about 2200 EUR each. Minimum height for full deployment is 80m AGL. I'm 1,82m tall and I fit in quite well (XS-version). I like the peace of mind to have this "last option" or "plan C" like I call it.

 

 Cheers

 Roland

 PH-ZTI

 XS TG 914

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=492053#492053

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:30 pm Post subject: Parachute

Hi! Roland/all

IMHO the deployment of a BRS type parachute at sufficient height is to wave

"GOODBYE" TO many  likely opportunities to save yourself and your aircraft

during an unscheduled landing (except a water Landing )because once your

aircraft was suspended at sufficient height you have no control of where you

will hit " mother earth". Without a BRS  chute the aircraft will still glide

in the event of an engine out situation ( although on a pretty severe

downward path )  during which time you will have had numerous attempts to

re-start the engine and be able to select where is the best option to make

your landing .

Having said that I have never had such an incident other than in my mind by

advance planning and practiced emergency dead stick approaches or emergency

failures on take offs.( only ever land forward into that often planned

place, do not attempt to return to the airfield you will NOT even make the

perimeter.

Now if you want to make provision for a catastrophic structural failure at

height like William Mills ( bless him ) then the BRS chute would be useful

other than would the BRS be able to be deployed at such airspeed and risks

of even more disintegration.

The magazine reporter ( also a "Mills")  who designed the Europa BRS

installation had planned on a temporary split down the wind screen for the

aft suspension lines. ( how practical would that be ?) The whole scheme was

abandoned .



Regards Bob Harrison .



--

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Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Parachute

Bob, I agree in what you've written, especially not to try to return to the airfield in a EFAT at low altitude (hopefully I'll remember it in such a situation). As for the BRS it's potentially a great safety feature IF it's incorporated in the aircraft design from scratch, like Cirrus did it. Many successful deployments in all kind of situations (even those beyond its envelope) prove that.

Regards

Roland 

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

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