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Charge Pump

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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:54 pm Post subject: Charge Pump

Hello members,

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps.  

Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.

So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.

I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.  

Any insight is greatly appreciated, 





-Jeff

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:36 pm Post subject: Charge Pump

On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                         Hello members,

         

         

         I'm wondering how difficult           it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power           supply.Â  It would need to supply about 7 amps.Â Â 

         

         

         Here's why I'm asking...           There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly           in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can           sell for up to $1000 more.

         

         

         So if I could fabricate such           a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.

         

         

         I'm interested in the           calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency           to run the charge pump.Â Â 

         

         

         Any insight is greatly           appreciated,Â 

         

         

         

         

         -Jeff

       

     	
     Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values:

     Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v     stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation,     get one converter, plus a spare.

     https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum=20287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3

     

     Sorry; I couldn't resist. 

     Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's probably     3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of 'headroom'.

     

     Charlie

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject: Charge Pump

On 2/6/2020 3:32 PM, Charlie England       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey         wrote:

       

        	  Quote: 	
		                               Hello members,

           

           

           I'm wondering how difficult             it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power             supply.Â  It would need to supply about 7 amps.Â Â 

           

           

           Here's why I'm asking...             There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly             in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can             sell for up to $1000 more.

           

           

           So if I could fabricate             such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the             game.

           

           

           I'm interested in the             calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency             to run the charge pump.Â Â 

           

           

           Any insight is greatly             appreciated,Â 

           

           

           

           

           -Jeff

         

       	
       Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values:

       Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v       stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation,       get one converter, plus a spare.

       https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum=20287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3

       

       Sorry; I couldn't resist. 

       Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's       probably 3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of       'headroom'.

       

       Charlie

     	
     OOPS.. Brain freeze....$17 gets you *one* upconverter, if you buy     two. Anyway, less than $20 gets you where you need to be. You can     buy more pedigreed versions for around $50-$75.

     

     Charlie

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:41 pm Post subject: Charge Pump

Jeff,

Aircraft Spruce has brand new comm radios from Dynon, Flightline, Garmin, ICOM, MGL and Microair, all for significantly less than the $1,500 you quoted for a used 28V King.  Using one of them, you'd have a brand new radio, with a warranty, and no monkey motion required for voltage conversion.



If that's not an option for some reason and you definitely need the King radio, then you're looking for a switch-mode boost converter, not a switched-capacitor charge pump.  Here's something on eBay that may work:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/332594877042



That seller has modules at various current levels.  If I were you I'd buy the 15-amp model, as Chinese manufacturers tend to inflate their product specs.

There are probably other options as well, if you want to look around.  I found that by searching for "boost converter 12V 24V 10A".



Eric

 





                  

                                                                    On Thursday, February 6, 2020, 01:12:43 PM PST, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:                 

                 



                 Hello members,

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps.  

Here's why I'm asking... There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can sell for up to $1000 more.

So if I could fabricate such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the game.

I'm interested in the calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency to run the charge pump.  

Any insight is greatly appreciated, 





-Jeff

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:58 pm Post subject: Charge Pump

... now why didn't I think of that? 

I searched Amazon for 12v-24v converter and didn't find anything useful.  Thanks for the correct search phrase.  I wonder how much ripple is in the output.

For those low prices, it doesn't make sense to even try to make one.  But as a die-hard electro-geek I'm still interested in a charge-pump circuit & cap sizes.

Per the King spec sheet, the KX-155 needs 6A at 24v.

Thanks Charlie,

-Jeff

                  

                                                                    On Thursday, February 6, 2020, 01:47:16 PM PST, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                      On 2/6/2020 3:32 PM, Charlie England       wrote:     

      	  Quote: 	
		         	


On 2/6/2020 2:51 PM, Jeff Luckey         wrote:       

        	  Quote: 	
		           	


           Hello members,

                      

           I'm wondering how difficult             it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power             supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps.  

                      

           Here's why I'm asking...             There are lots of 28v KX-155s on Ebay that are fairly             in-expensive at around $1500 compared to 12v models that can             sell for up to $1000 more.

                      

           So if I could fabricate             such a power supply for around $100, I would be ahead of the             game.

                      

           I'm interested in the             calculations on how to size the capacitors and the frequency             to run the charge pump.  

                      

           Any insight is greatly             appreciated, 

                      

                      

           -Jeff

         

              Yes, it can be done Here's how to calculate the values:       Start with $100. Divide by 5.88 Go to ebay. Search '12v to 24v       stepup converter'. With the result from the previous calculation,       get one converter, plus a spare.       https://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-DC12V-to-DC-24V-20A-480W-Step-Up-Power-Supply-Converter-Regulator-Kit/202872549463?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f3c257057:m:mA-xAWABizqWlOLEyA6v7Nw&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qUXW1%2Fq6HuXoJTIAajkTxvX%2FthCD%2BMtQ9lOxF6IWwWFRnOCDAOfp2kcY%2FayMmdc6Z2eRgn%2BFiiPY0P5BtYG1KcorbK%2FmeMRiVwLI8vEwVf0wSo9f79LRzTetEN9dtRtx6VmJgBqd%2BQqmMO6IsoUKer6LyYxh40VjEXp1PjMj35gPvxWVWLaQ8G6O0y%2B%2B1GB%2F7hRHfA7qBtnk6bZTiFNEfuQspUJsdRqSP9OFtTDDAVj3QNaR0mWqKDYKXLzO8bQca9iNmmytJK6nLFAJNGwzmMAu1MiCMBWcPieqAWjyVSfz%2FO8BSZT0pEtEWtNSh3tWKB5xqkNY9Qhs7WbGe8EuAt32ewwx67hNfV8rngHDCpQyvXAfj4idhRVXTtwo%2Fk9O8bcfPkxhX9dxRv0Vw7MsNH8rzQMn%2BrO8KfDqcJ9x9Rk%2BjtBxhHAW9Iz%2FwP2NKVkIn19K13qj2sXDDTi1bwFWgJuXMC%2FbPvLnbvdGuAyDSJDbqEx%2B%2Bep62vvTMXkiQGQG9cvRfElNO6gx9fckkqRaEwzph0AZGmiZFLYJP0%2FEZePnJSu60RsvnZ13ERorw3jsJKl7O5LrDyUh14IAnRrqCP8H9fjK2gnLVelmINptBgHXt8VGvVsL1dlAHk84ZWTh%2F5NhdwTp4V0rUEiZxTHf%2Fuilag6UmnxRVvltlT7aJUUll62W3FWPixrBrjRuQTGLjnr6hxwB7t%2FDevyRwW7GNPllYZmM1lMkAhd%2FuMYc6sg7tcRcceqbs3QXHzwu5pRW04%3D&checksum=20287254946321373ab7df7b4123bbe0bef05d201fa3              Sorry; I couldn't resist.        Note that the link is actually to a 10A supply, but that's       probably 3 times what the radio needs, so still plenty of       'headroom'.              Charlie          OOPS.. Brain freeze....$17 gets you *one* upconverter, if you buy     two. Anyway, less than $20 gets you where you need to be. You can     buy more pedigreed versions for around $50-$75.          Charlie

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Charge Pump

 	  Quote: 	
		  But as a die-hard electro-geek I'm still interested in a charge-pump circuit & cap sizes. 	




You'll be hard-pressed to find any switched-capacitor charge pump that will work at those current levels.  The highest current charge pump IC that Digi-Key has in stock maxes out at 4.5A, and everything else is rated for 500mA or less.



If you're interested, the 4.5A part is here: https://www.digikey.com/short/z3mwj1



Eric



P.S.  Upon reflection, the 10A module that Charlie and I linked to on eBay would probably be sufficient, and lighter than the 15A module.  The radio will only draw the full 6A while transmitting, and that's only for brief periods.

argoldman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:09 pm Post subject: Charge Pump

And the electrical noise?????

Rich



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 6, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 how

rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:01 am Post subject: Charge Pump

On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps.


	




Jeff - I went through this process some time back for a 24V gyro, which had a much lower current demand - see my journal page:



http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/24vconverter.php



Here attached as a PDF is the process I used to choose component values - it may be of some use to you. And my spare components are still available, should you want any of them, although postage to USA might be pricey.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

circuit.pdf

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racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Charge Pump

1   KX-155 is an OLD radio

2   KX-155 digital displays (very common failure) are no longer available as a replacement part

3   Cheaper options are available

4   VOR stations are rapidly disappearing because of GPS navigation - forget VOR

5   A good hand-held radio connected to an external antenna will work just as good as panel mount



LOW BUDGET JERRY

_________________
Jerry King

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 am Post subject: Charge Pump

At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:



 > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps. 	


   You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump'

   thingy . . . but after following the thread

   it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24

   volt up-converter.  A 'charge pump' is a particular

   kind of energy converter limited to very low

   power systems.



   The critter you're looking for is more like this.



  https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo



   perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need

   but already robustly packaged and convenient

   to wire up.



 

 

   Bob . . .

n233ee(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:24 am Post subject: Charge Pump

Is the input ground isolated from the output?  



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Feb 13, 2020, at 7:57 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



ï»¿  At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:



 > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps. 	


   You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump'

   thingy . . . but after following the thread

   it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24

   volt up-converter.  A 'charge pump' is a particular

   kind of energy converter limited to very low

   power systems.



   The critter you're looking for is more like this.



  https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo



   perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need

   but already robustly packaged and convenient

   to wire up.



 

 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: Charge Pump

At 08:22 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Is the input ground isolated from the output? 	


   Probably not. It's difficult to find

   such devices with 'isolated' or 'floating'

   outputs. They exist and generally in

   low power (couple watts) versions.



   Examples:   https://tinyurl.com/rplxlsk



 

 

   Bob . . .

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: Charge Pump

Bob,

So what is the basic circuit design in the 12-24v step-up supply you reference on EBay?  An inverter, transformer, rectifier?

-Jeff

                  

                                                                    On Thursday, February 13, 2020, 06:01:17 AM PST, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                   At 04:59 AM 2/10/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  On 2020-02-06, at 20:51, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:



 > I'm wondering how difficult it would be to build a 14-to-28 volt charge-pump power supply.  It would need to supply about 7 amps. 	


   You threw me a curve ball with the 'charge pump'

   thingy . . . but after following the thread

   it's apparent that you're needing a 12 -> 24

   volt up-converter.  A 'charge pump' is a particular

   kind of energy converter limited to very low

   power systems.



   The critter you're looking for is more like this.



  https://tinyurl.com/rjxn3eo



   perhaps a little 'beefier' than you need

   but already robustly packaged and convenient

   to wire up.



 

 

    Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:43 am Post subject: Charge Pump

At 10:51 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 So what is the basic circuit design in the 12-24v step-up supply you reference on EBay?  An inverter, transformer, rectifier?



 -Jeff 	


   The vast majority will use the configuration

   posted by Rowland. This is the lowest parts count,

   easiest to implement. The number and style of

   filter components on inputs and outputs will

   vary but the basic step-up architecture is constant.



   Isolated supplies require a transformer.

   They'll be more expensive.



 

 

   Bob . . .

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:49 am Post subject: Charge Pump

I run a 28volt T&B off a cheap ($4.?) ebay 12 to 24 volt adjustable 

converter.Â  Think it was rated at about 3 amps which is way more than 

needed.Â  It has common grounds.Â  It's mounted in a little plastic box 

and taped to a wire bundle under the dash.Â  I have not noticed any 

interference with the gps or radio.Â  Weighs next to nothing.

Ken



On 13/02/2020 9:22 AM, Earl Schroeder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is the input ground isolated from the output?

n233ee(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:58 am Post subject: Charge Pump

This might work for me:  WRB1224YMD-6W.    https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-pcs-5-12-15-24-48V-6W-Isolated-Regulated-Dual-Single-Output-DC-DC-Converter/222767551092?hash=item33ddfb1274:m:m7JLZJsEF2VDrfRwBcZHJsg

I am supplying 24V to a dozen or so 4-20 mA instruments   Four CH, EG, 2 fuel tank levels etc.  This is for a back up in case the existing 12-24 unit fails. I have discovered that it is no longer available.

Thanks for your help, Earl Schroeder

P.S. I have four or so 12 V battery chargers that have failed over the years.  Most are â€˜Shusmackersâ€™.. anyway that is what I call them.  Let me know if you want to â€˜lookâ€™ at them before they hit the trash.  (I live near Evansville, IN). 7ii3 on St Louis sec.    



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Feb 13, 2020, at 10:18 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



ï»¿  At 08:22 AM 2/13/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Is the input ground isolated from the output? 	


   Probably not. It's difficult to find

   such devices with 'isolated' or 'floating'

   outputs. They exist and generally in

   low power (couple watts) versions.



   Examples:   https://tinyurl.com/rplxlsk



 

 

   Bob . . .

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