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dj_theis
Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota
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 Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:59 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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Hello forum,
Been rather quiet lately so I thought I would stir the pot with a relevant question on my project.
I have always planned on restricting the wire on my plane to tefzel, mil spec from Steinair or BandC. I’ve read and reread Bob’s book and see his recommendation (in the text) is not restricted to this level but he has a clear process for using wire (or, more accurately, identifying if the wire is usable) of unknown pedigree. I have a collection of single conductor and shielded wire that is all mil-w-16878D. Some is labeled as 200C and some with 105C temperature rating. None of the wire is below a strand configuration of 7/30.
The question is, “should I use this wire? Also, if used, should I restrict its use to the pilot side of the firewall?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Dan Theis
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_________________
Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement |
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:45 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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Here’s a chart of Mil-W-16878.
http://www.standard-wire.com/mil_w_16878_cable_designation.html
Not exactly sure what version you have but generally we want to use PTFE or FEP-coated wire, 600V, 200°C. For example the seller below handles mil-w-16878/4 which is nearly the same as mil-w-22759 commonly sold as aviation wire. One advantage is the -16878 comes in different colors. It sounds like your 200°C wire is a PTFE or FEP coated wire and would be good anywhere you would use -22759.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/100-Ft-22-Awg-Stranded-1-2-3-Striped-Mil-Spec-600V-Teflon-Wire-Audio-Tube-Amp/183768643409?epid=577237606&hash=item2ac976f751:g:DHcAAOSwDNdV53fC
-Kent
| Quote: | On May 23, 2020, at 11:59 AM, dj_theis <djtheis58(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Hello forum,
Been rather quiet lately so I thought I would stir the pot with a relevant question on my project.
I have always planned on restricting the wire on my plane to tefzel, mil spec from Steinair or BandC. I’ve read and reread Bob’s book and see his recommendation (in the text) is not restricted to this level but he has a clear process for using wire (or, more accurately, identifying if the wire is usable) of unknown pedigree. I have a collection of single conductor and shielded wire that is all mil-w-16878D. Some is labeled as 200C and some with 105C temperature rating. None of the wire is below a strand configuration of 7/30.
The question is, “should I use this wire? Also, if used, should I restrict its use to the pilot side of the firewall?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Dan Theis
--------
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496467#496467
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 6:40 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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At 10:59 AM 5/23/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com>
Hello forum,
Been rather quiet lately so I thought I would stir the pot with a relevant question on my project.
I have always planned on restricting the wire on my plane to tefzel, mil spec from Steinair or BandC. I’ve read and reread Bob’s book and see his recommendation (in the text) is not restricted to this level but he has a clear process for using wire (or, more accurately, identifying if the wire is usable) of unknown pedigree. |
Correct. There have been (and still are) tens of thousands
of airplanes flying for decades with a wide range of
wire insulations. Given that all fault-vulnerable wires
are protected with an artfully selected fuse or breaker,
insulations of any pedigree are not at risk for initiating
a fire due to feeder faults.
The remaining concerns for type of insulation are (1)
longevity when subject to the operating environment
which includes temperature, hydrocarbons, hydraulic
fluids . . . and just plain old age.
While 22759 Tefzel (FEP) is the modern material of choice
(I say 'modern' but it's been in widespread used on
the Wichita fleets for 40 or so years), those same
aircraft were manufactured back to the 40's with
a variety of insulations including, cotton covered
rubber, some of which are still carrying perfectly
serviceable wiring.
| Quote: | I have a collection of single conductor and shielded wire that
is all mil-w-16878D. Some is labeled as 200C and some with 105C
temperature rating. None of the wire is below a strand configuration
of 7/30. |
You can see a table of characteristics for
the various forms of 16878 wire at
https://tinyurl.com/ydgex35d
Your 200C wire is Teflon (ETFE) insulated.
Not a 'bad' insulation but the stuff does
creep under constant pressure unlike the
preferred Tefzel (FEP). Just snug up
wire-ties and clamps . . . don't strangle
'em.
The infamous Greg Richter and I had some
discussion about Teflon wire about 16 years
ago . . . https://tinyurl.com/y8lf49dq
The 105C wire will be PVC insulated. A
generation of single engine Cessnas were
manufactured with type BN wire (Nylon over
PVC).
Yeah, didn't last well under the cowl (nylon
jacket got brittle and flaked off).
| Quote: | The question is, “should I use this wire? Also, if used,
should I restrict its use to the pilot side of the firewall? |
The 200C wire is fine everywhere but yeah,
the 105C wire is best kept aft of the
firewall.
The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n
Bob . . .
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steve(at)tomasara.com
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 6:12 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See:Â https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a lot of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was built) and after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there as far as my point goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter, but 30 AWG solid teflon is *great* for rework wire on circuit boards). For me the "creep" issue is so bad as to be a show stopper. Any place the wire got pulled over an edge (presumably during install) the edge just opened up the wire. It didn't cut it but it did displace the insulation (creep) all the way down to the wire. Even when carefully installing tefzel wire great care must be taken to avoid inadvertent wire-chafing related problems.
Example: I *thought* I had always been really careful but minor a seemingly-minor re-routing of my Alternator b-lead wire back by the alternator inadvertently took out the slack in the wire near the forward engine mount which turned into a short on a sharp engine mount edge bushing. Fortunately I had an ANL installed up by the master contactor (and I don't have raw fuel spraying around under the cowl) so it was a none event. The tefzel wire is much more durable (but clearly not durable enough in this case) than the Teflon. (Useful tip for doing an out-of-town field repair, on a Sunday, and you need an ANL: They are now commonly used for automobile subwoofers and can be found super cheap at places like Car Toys and Best Buy).
I counsel that anyone choosing to put straight teflon wire in their aircraft be especially paranoid about protecting what, in my experience, is a very fragile insulation layer.
Best regards to all,
Steve Stearns
O235Â Longeze
Taylorcraft BC12D
Boulder/Longmont CO
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:00 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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Possibly what you had was not Teflon but something else. Tefzel is just a Dupont tradename for various Teflon types. Better to specify a Mil-W-22759/__ spec or a Mil-W-16878/__ but even those come in different insulations. I have been pretty happy with a PEFE wire or and FEP wire. I could not tell much difference in handling. The -16878 wire comes in more colors. Here is a chart | Quote: | | On May 25, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com (steve(at)tomasara.com)> wrote:Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a lot of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was built) and after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there as far as my point goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter[img]cid:AE6DEBE0-4EC4-4A7E-8DDE-A4AFFCE955E8(at)Home[/img] |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:10 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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At 09:09 AM 5/25/2020, you wrote:
Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See:Â https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now
about 10 years ago) it had a lot of Teflon wire
in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it
was built) and after inspecting the plane, I
pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all of
it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here
nor there as far as my point goes) but I will
*never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for
that matter, but 30 AWG solid teflon is *great*
for rework wire on circuit boards). For me the
"creep" issue is so bad as to be a show stopper.
Any place the wire got pulled over an edge
(presumably during install) the edge just opened
up the wire. It didn't cut it but it did
"displace the insulation" (creep) all the way
down to the wire. Even when carefully installing
tefzel wire great care must be taken to avoid
inadvertent wire-chafing related problems.
<snip>
Your experience clearly illustrates the importance
of artful wire routing and support. Every airframe
shop I've worked in treated wire bundles like fuel
lines . . . do not, repeat DO NOT allow wires,
pipes, control cables, etc. to ride in contact with
the airframe . . . even if it is SMOOTH. I had a brake
failure about 2 am one morning in my '57 Chevy when
a steel brake line had laid against a rubber
power steering hose wherein the gap was 'lubricated'
with greasy sand and dust. Wore a hole in the line.
Just last week, I repaired apiece of steel line on
local kid's truck where the line was laying 'gently'
against an axle housing. 200K miles of vibration
wore a hole in it.
I think I've shared the story of a C90 on short
final to Clovis NM suffering total elevator
control disconnect due to cable chaffing against
8AWG windshield de-ice power feeder. Insulation
wore through, copper arced 'gently' against a
steel cable which eventually parted.
I counsel that anyone choosing to put straight
teflon wire in their aircraft be especially
paranoid about protecting what, in my experience,
is a very fragile insulation layer.
You bet . . . but not limited to ANY particular material.
Time, motion, pressure and contaminants are as
relentless as the Colorado River carving the Grand
Canyon. It's not a question of whether or not
it will fail . . . just a matter of when.
Best regards to all,
Steve Stearns
Thanks for sharing!
Bob . . .
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:16 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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On the subject of different colours, I’m not sure about 16878, but Allied Wire and Cable will happily vend you 22759/16 in ten different colours:
Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet Grey and White.
They also do reel ends for cheap: right now you can have 155’ of -20 in blue for 11.45 (0.6 cents per foot) or 90’ of orange -22 for $4.83 (0.9 cents per foot).
On May 25, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> wrote:
Possibly what you had was not Teflon but something else. Tefzel is just a Dupont tradename for various Teflon types. Better to specify a Mil-W-22759/__ spec or a Mil-W-16878/__ but even those come in different insulations. I have been pretty happy with a PEFE wire or and FEP wire. I could not tell much difference in handling. The -16878 wire comes in more colors. Here is a chart
| Quote: | On May 25, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> wrote:
Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a lot of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was built) and after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there as far as my point goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter<Wire16878-22759.jpg>
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:23 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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Sorry - got my arithmetic wrong - that’s 7 cents per foot, and 5 cents per foot, respectively.
On May 25, 2020, at 11:13 AM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> wrote:
On the subject of different colours, I’m not sure about 16878, but Allied Wire and Cable will happily vend you 22759/16 in ten different colours:
Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet Grey and White.
They also do reel ends for cheap: right now you can have 155’ of -20 in blue for 11.45 (0.6 cents per foot) or 90’ of orange -22 for $4.83 (0.9 cents per foot).
On May 25, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> wrote:
Possibly what you had was not Teflon but something else. Tefzel is just a Dupont tradename for various Teflon types. Better to specify a Mil-W-22759/__ spec or a Mil-W-16878/__ but even those come in different insulations. I have been pretty happy with a PEFE wire or and FEP wire. I could not tell much difference in handling. The -16878 wire comes in more colors. Here is a chart
| Quote: | On May 25, 2020, at 10:09 AM, Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> wrote:
Bob said: "The Teflon wire is a bit fussy to strip.
See: https://tinyurl.com/bol9x2n"
My 2 cents: When I obtained my Longeze (now about 10 years ago) it had a lot of Teflon wire in it (apparently it was the "the thing" when it was built) and after inspecting the plane, I pulled *all* of the wiring out and re did all of it. I chose mostly Tefzel (which is neither here nor there as far as my point goes) but I will *never* use Teflon in the plane (or a car for that matter<Wire16878-22759.jpg>
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jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:45 am Post subject: Aviation wire |
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For what it's worth, the supplier I bookmarked once (reasonable prices I
suppose):
https://prowireusa.com//c-32-m22759-16.aspx
Two thicknesses of insulation. Which to choose?
Cheers
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