 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:08 pm Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
 |
|
At 02:07 PM 6/16/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | I let my fully charged EarthX sit for 12 months thinking it would be fine.
It was not. It was completely discharged and would not take a re-charge.
|
Hmmm . . . according to EarthX literature, expected
self discharge rates are pretty much in line with
other LiFePo4 products.
What conditions was it stored in? Did you have
any conversation about it with EarthX?
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
48.49 KB |
| Viewed: |
11347 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:30 pm Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
It was on the bench, heated shop. I should have contacted EarthX but I just blamed myself. I am sure of the time frame because I had load tested it and made notations, and stored those notes with the battery.
Ken
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:16 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 02:07 PM 6/16/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | I let my fully charged EarthX sit for 12 months thinking it would be fine.
It was not. It was completely discharged and would not take a re-charge.
|
Hmmm . . . according to EarthX literature, expected
self discharge rates are pretty much in line with
other LiFePo4 products.
What conditions was it stored in? Did you have
any conversation about it with EarthX?
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:34 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
At 04:23 PM 6/16/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | It was on the bench, heated shop. I should have contacted EarthX but I just blamed myself.
I am sure of the time frame because I had load tested it and made notations, and stored those notes with the battery.
Ken |
Do you still have the carcass?
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:19 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
No, sorry Bob. I used to ride motorcycles and it was not unusual that I would trash a battery letting it sit over the winter. So my mindset was that it must have been my fault (again) so I just got rid of it and bought a new one, vowing to keep it on the maintainer.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:40 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 04:23 PM 6/16/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | It was on the bench, heated shop. I should have contacted EarthX but I just blamed myself.
I am sure of the time frame because I had load tested it and made notations, and stored those notes with the battery.
Ken |
Do you still have the carcass?
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:20 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
This was a number of years ago, before the model with the dual bms and warning light lead. I don't remember whether or not that model's bms was supposed to protect it from over discharge.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:13 AM Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | No, sorry Bob. I used to ride motorcycles and it was not unusual that I would trash a battery letting it sit over the winter. So my mindset was that it must have been my fault (again) so I just got rid of it and bought a new one, vowing to keep it on the maintainer.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:40 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 04:23 PM 6/16/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | It was on the bench, heated shop. I should have contacted EarthX but I just blamed myself.
I am sure of the time frame because I had load tested it and made notations, and stored those notes with the battery.
Ken |
Do you still have the carcass?
Bob . . .
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
At 10:16 AM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | This was a number of years ago, before the model with the dual bms and warning light lead. I don't remember whether or not that model's bms was supposed to protect it from over discharge.
|
I believe their bms always protected from over discharge
but it could not protect against self discharge. For example,
a battery that has been 'protected' due to very low state
of charge still needs to be recharged asap. Just because
it has protected itself from external discharge, it cannot
stand of effects of internal discharge. This MIGHT be what
happened to yours.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:50 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:50 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 10:16 AM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | This was a number of years ago, before the model with the dual bms and warning light lead. I don't remember whether or not that model's bms was supposed to protect it from over discharge.Â
|
I believe their bms always protected from over discharge
but it could not protect against self discharge. For example,
a battery that has been 'protected' due to very low state
of charge still needs to be recharged asap. Just because
it has protected itself from external discharge, it cannot
stand of effects of internal discharge. This MIGHT be what
happened to yours.
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:08 pm Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken |
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:06 pm Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken |
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
At 03:26 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
|
bummer . . .
for years at my seminars I suggested
that builders don't buy a battery until
a few weeks before first flight. 'til then
you can test with some jury-rigged car
battery.
I think I made that suggestion the first
time when an attendee stated that he was
going to 'cruise the booths at OSH next
month to see if he could snag a good deal
on a battery.' He asked for recommendations.
He admitted being years away from flying.
That was before lithium . . . also very
early in evolution of AGM products. I
suggested he would be money and risk ahead
with a 'fresh' battery in his newly minted
airplane. I think that advice still holds water.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berkut13(at)berkut13.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:13 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
You do know there is a specific process to “re-activate” an EarthX battery once the discharge protection is activated, right? Was that tried? It won’t accept a charge until that is completed.
-James
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 3:27 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Premature EarthX death?
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:25 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
I believe the charger which I bought from EarthX has that capability. What exactly is this procedure?
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 08:19 <berkut13(at)berkut13.com (berkut13(at)berkut13.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
You do know there is a specific process to “re-activate” an EarthX battery once the discharge protection is activated, right? Was that tried? It won’t accept a charge until that is completed.
-James
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 3:27 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Premature EarthX death?
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:54 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
Here is a FAQ from EarthX that includes discussion of re-charging an over-discharged battery. I have the Optimate charger and I tried it several times.
https://earthxbatteries.com/faqs
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 8:22 AM Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I believe the charger which I bought from EarthX has that capability. What exactly is this procedure?
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 08:19 <berkut13(at)berkut13.com (berkut13(at)berkut13.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
You do know there is a specific process to “re-activate” an EarthX battery once the discharge protection is activated, right? Was that tried? It won’t accept a charge until that is completed.
-James
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 3:27 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Premature EarthX death?
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skywagon185(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:16 pm Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
Here is a guess at the charging, or lack of, problem.. from a guy that has never used the Xearth battery.
Most Li based chargers, controllers, BMS, etc. have top and bottom voltage state sensors.
Translating this.... if the battery voltage for any reason has fallen below the minimum value, the charge controller will essentially block any attempt to charge the battery as it believes the battery is unsafe to charge.
The typical method to overcome this charging blockage is to trick the controller or bypass it for a very brief period of time. And, using a conventional charger attached to the battery in such a way, usually the battery posts, as to put a brief charge into the battery. Enough of a charge to get the cells voltage to rise above a minimum level. Once that is done, usually connecting the battery to the Li charger, it will sense that the battery is sufficiently at a safe state and begin normal charging...
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I believe the charger which I bought from EarthX has that capability. What exactly is this procedure?
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 08:19 <berkut13(at)berkut13.com (berkut13(at)berkut13.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
You do know there is a specific process to “re-activate” an EarthX battery once the discharge protection is activated, right? Was that tried? It won’t accept a charge until that is completed.
-James
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 3:27 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Premature EarthX death?
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobnoffs
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:53 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
i can't believe this conversation is going on and earthx hasn't been contacted. from my experience with them they really are the experts on this. no offense to anyone but THIS is their thing.
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:19 AM <berkut13(at)berkut13.com (berkut13(at)berkut13.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
You do know there is a specific process to “re-activate” an EarthX battery once the discharge protection is activated, right? Was that tried? It won’t accept a charge until that is completed.
-James
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 3:27 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Premature EarthX death?
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:21 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
The battery was discarded a couple of years ago. I see no point in contacting them now.
On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 04:58 bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com (icubob(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | i can't believe this conversation is going on and earthx hasn't been contacted. from my experience with them they really are the experts on this. no offense to anyone but THIS is their thing.
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 11:19 AM <berkut13(at)berkut13.com (berkut13(at)berkut13.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
You do know there is a specific process to “re-activate” an EarthX battery once the discharge protection is activated, right? Was that tried? It won’t accept a charge until that is completed.
-James
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ken Ryan
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 3:27 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Premature EarthX death?
It was never in service. It was for an unfinished project. It was about two or three years old, I think. It had been charged periodically during the first couple of years using EarthX recommended charger. Then at about 2 or 3 years old I finally developed a load test system and so I did a load test. I no longer have that record, but it tested as expected. Then I charged it back up and it sat for a year. That's when it was dead. I suppose it is possible that I did not charge it after the load test. But at the price of those things and having previous experience failing motorcycle batteries, that seems unlikely.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:14 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
At 02:19 PM 6/19/2020, you wrote:
Thanks Bob. Now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious that the BMS could never protect from self-discharge!
Ken
How long had the battery been in
satisfactory service before it when
t.u.?
Bob . . .
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bcone1381
Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
Consider the EarthX battery's reliability for a moment. I wonder if it is a sufficiently complex unit with multiple failure points and that maybe it's reliability is not equal to the AMG type battery. Is the AMG battery a better choice for an electrically defendant airframe? Is there any way to get reliability data?
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:35 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
At 05:49 AM 7/14/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com>
Consider the EarthX battery's reliability for a moment. I wonder if it is a sufficiently complex unit with multiple failure points and that maybe it's reliability is not equal to the AMG type battery. Is the AMG battery a better choice for an electrically defendant airframe? Is there any way to get reliability data?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
|
Excellent question. Unfortunately there is no data for
deducing an objective answer.
These batteries are obviously more complex . . . they
have solid state devices in series with a cranking-
current/charging-current pathway. Except for the rare
application of MOS transistors in solid state contactors,
these applications are novel to say the least. It would
be interesting to see the MTBF studies on this collection
of hardware. It's axiomatic that addition of the
electronics REDUCES reliability over the bare-bones
battery.
At the same time, the electronics REDUCES risk
of battery failure do to external abuses of over-current,
over-discharge, over-charge, unequal charging
of cells, etc.
In other words, because these batteries are chemically
more fragile than their lead-acid cousins it behooves
use to add electronic protections to ward off
the hazards of poor system integration.
By that I suggest that replacing SVLA with LiFePO4
is pounding a square peg into a round hole.
This is like the NiCad story from 60 years ago.
We pounded that peg into another ill-fitting
hole and it took a few spectacular failure
incidents before, you guessed it, band-aids
were added to the system which pushed system
integration short-falls off onto the cockpit
crew! And most people are completely unaware
of the fact that NiCads had to be serviced
in completely separate facilities from then
common flooded lead-acid devices. Seems
potassium hydroxide electrolyte is something
of an antagonist to sulfuric acid electrolyte
and vise-versa. FBO's didn't have much good
to say about Ni-Cads.
So what were (are) the driving forces for
trying to pound these pegs into ill-fitting
holes? With Ni-Cad it was the promise of
weight reduction combined with longer service
life . . . the Ni-Cad had superior cranking
ability and did not suffer from deep discharge
effects.
With LiFePO4 we're really hung up on weight . . .
and with slightly improved cranking . . . at
'normal' temperatures. But let's look at
the weight thing.
Suppose you have a nice RV with a new LiFePO4
which replaced a 10 pound heavier SVLA.
What are the benefits have been
secured? Your fuel tanks didn't grow by
1.5 gallons . . . so endurance is unchanged.
When was the last time you off-loaded
10# of baggage because you were over-grossed?
If you had two, identical RV's except
SLVA and LiFePO4 batteries. What flight
testing would you conduct do deduce which
airplane had the lighter battery? Take
off run . . . service ceiling . . . fuel
consumption?
The point being that while weight reduction
is never a 'bad' thing in airplanes, reducing
the weight of one accessory has to be traded
of with costs of ownership and objective
gains in performance.
Roy Lopresti and Burt Rutan were the grand
masters of airframe weight management. Uncle
Roy turned the Model 20 Mooney into the 201
and 231 by achieving 1 mhp/hp through dozens
of weight/drag reductions. Burt had to
design an airplane that consumed 5 gallons
of gas for every pound of airframe weight
to go around the world. Again, attention to
details on hundreds of weight issues made
that mission possible.
But in the real world of RV's and LongEz's
does a ten pound reduction in ramp weight
offer a return on investment for the increased
cost of ownership for LiFePO4 vs. SLVA?
I'm not suggesting that there's no place
for LiFePO4 on airplanes . . . but I do
suggest that an electrical system could be
crafted that is LiFePO4 friendly such
that no complex, throw-away electronics
are needed INSIDE the battery. Such a
system would not necessarily be unfriendly
to SVLA.
This would reduce cost of ownership and
increase battery reliability by way
of parts reduction . . . but the short
answer to your question is service-
records (history) will tell. Will the
marketplace be as eager to pay the
freight on a LiFePO4 'smart' product?
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
P.S.
> Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> to SVLA.
I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
bench right now running the traps on energy
vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
EarthX device waiting to run the same
tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
I've been thinking a lot about the
LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
with a goal of reducing parts count
and cost-of-ownership. The weight
reduction may not produce observable
benefits but at least it shouldn't
cost so much or impact reliability.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:05 am Post subject: Premature EarthX death? |
|
|
Bob, while I cannot agree with you about the importance of 10 lbs. additional useful load, I do think you are onto something with the LiFePO4 friendly electrical system. Builders could then choose any appropriate off the shelf battery, or even build their own. What are some of the features that an LiFePO4 friendly system would have?
Ken
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 7:52 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | P.S.
> Such a system would not necessarily be unfriendly
> to SVLA.
I've got a new AeroVolts product on the test
bench right now running the traps on energy
vs. charge discharge profiles. I've got an
EarthX device waiting to run the same
tests. Already have lots of SLVA data.
I've been thinking a lot about the
LiFePO4 friendly electrical system
with a goal of reducing parts count
and cost-of-ownership. The weight
reduction may not produce observable
benefits but at least it shouldn't
cost so much or impact reliability.
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
