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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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 Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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Background:
Traditionally, all the inter-connections among avionics devices have been made via a carefully made custom-built wiring harness.
Most avionics use DB-9/DB-25 connectors and the custom wire harness approach comes down to connecting pin #1 on device A to pin #7 on device B and pin #2 of device A to pin #12 on device B, etc, etc. All this inter-connection is done in the harness.
I see some downside to this approach:
1. Makes the harness more difficult to fabricate
2. Possibly embeds splices in the harness
3. Makes trouble shooting more difficult
4. Makes subsequent mods, updates, equipment upgrades more difficult
Different Way?
Create essentially a fancy junction box that has a bunch of DB-9 & DB-25 connectors, one for each device and connects directly to each device. Then in this j-box, make all of the device A pin 1 to device B pin 7 inter-connections. This could all be soldered. It might make pin-sharing/splicing easier.
I'm aware that Advanced Flight Systems has a product that does something like this. I wonder how their inter-connection scheme works because of the multitude of interconnection possibilities with different avionics devices. It seems like all of the combinations/permutations would be difficult to manage on a circuit board.
Some advantages to this approach:
1. Harnesses are much simpler
2. All of the "intelligence" is in this j-box/switch-board which might make mods less labor intensive
Some disadvantages:
1. Requires more connectors to get the job done
2. Adds another component (weight?)
Any thoughts pro or con are greatly appreciated,
-Jeff
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jquinn3
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:15 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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Approach Fast Stack has been doing this for years - buy a "Hub" and then a purpose build cable for each device.
On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 12:48 PM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Background:
Traditionally, all the inter-connections among avionics devices have been made via a carefully made custom-built wiring harness. Â
Most avionics use DB-9/DB-25 connectors and the custom wire harness approach comes down to connecting pin #1 on device A to pin #7 on device B and pin #2 of device A to pin #12 on device B, etc, etc. All this inter-connection is done in the harness.
I see some downside to this approach:
1. Makes the harness more difficult to fabricate
2. Possibly embeds splices in the harness
3. Makes trouble shooting more difficult
4. Makes subsequent mods, updates, equipment upgrades more difficult
Different Way?
Create essentially a fancy junction box that has a bunch of DB-9 & DB-25 connectors, one for each device and connects directly to each device. Then in this j-box, make all of the device A pin 1 to device B pin 7 inter-connections. This could all be soldered. It might make pin-sharing/splicing easier.
I'm aware that Advanced Flight Systems has a product that does something like this. I wonder how their inter-connection scheme works because of the multitude of interconnection possibilities with different avionics devices. It seems like all of the combinations/permutations would be difficult to manage on a circuit board.
Some advantages to this approach:
1. Harnesses are much simpler
2. All of the "intelligence" is in this j-box/switch-board which might make mods less labor intensive
Some disadvantages:
1. Requires more connectors to get the job done
2. Adds another component (weight?)
Any thoughts pro or con are greatly appreciated,
-Jeff
|
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:35 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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Jim Weir wrote an article about a simpler(?) way to connect avionics. Personally, I thought it was about as easy to just develop some skill soldering D-subs and use the standard stuff. There are a few tricks to soldering them but once you have learned them, it is pretty easy.
http://www.rstengineering.com/rst/articles/karmic3.pdf
One technique is to strip the wire, apply a bit of solder to the wire end, heat up the side of the cup on the D-sub and simultaneously insert the wire end. It is pretty quick with the right iron and solder.
-Kent
| Quote: | On Jun 8, 2020, at 1:34 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:
Background:
Traditionally, all the inter-connections among avionics devices have been made via a carefully made custom-built wiring harness.
Most avionics use DB-9/DB-25 connectors and the custom wire harness approach comes down to connecting pin #1 on device A to pin #7 on device B and pin #2 of device A to pin #12 on device B, etc, etc. All this inter-connection is done in the harness.
I see some downside to this approach:
1. Makes the harness more difficult to fabricate
2. Possibly embeds splices in the harness
3. Makes trouble shooting more difficult
4. Makes subsequent mods, updates, equipment upgrades more difficult
Different Way?
Create essentially a fancy junction box that has a bunch of DB-9 & DB-25 connectors, one for each device and connects directly to each device. Then in this j-box, make all of the device A pin 1 to device B pin 7 inter-connections. This could all be soldered. It might make pin-sharing/splicing easier.
I'm aware that Advanced Flight Systems has a product that does something like this. I wonder how their inter-connection scheme works because of the multitude of interconnection possibilities with different avionics devices. It seems like all of the combinations/permutations would be difficult to manage on a circuit board.
Some advantages to this approach:
1. Harnesses are much simpler
2. All of the "intelligence" is in this j-box/switch-board which might make mods less labor intensive
Some disadvantages:
1. Requires more connectors to get the job done
2. Adds another component (weight?)
Any thoughts pro or con are greatly appreciated,
-Jeff
|
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:00 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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James,
Thanks for the reference to Approach Fast Stack. That pretty much validates the concept, doesn't it?
On Monday, June 8, 2020, 11:47:19 AM PDT, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
Jim Weir wrote an article about a simpler(?) way to connect avionics. Personally, I thought it was about as easy to just develop some skill soldering D-subs and use the standard stuff. There are a few tricks to soldering them but once you have learned them, it is pretty easy.
http://www.rstengineering.com/rst/articles/karmic3.pdf
One technique is to strip the wire, apply a bit of solder to the wire end, heat up the side of the cup on the D-sub and simultaneously insert the wire end. It is pretty quick with the right iron and solder.
-Kent
| Quote: | Traditionally, all the inter-connections among avionics devices have been made via a carefully made custom-built wiring harness.
|
| Quote: | Most avionics use DB-9/DB-25 connectors and the custom wire harness approach comes down to connecting pin #1 on device A to pin #7 on device B and pin #2 of device A to pin #12 on device B, etc, etc. All this inter-connection is done in the harness.
|
| Quote: | I see some downside to this approach:
|
| Quote: | 1. Makes the harness more difficult to fabricate
|
| Quote: | 2. Possibly embeds splices in the harness
|
| Quote: | 3. Makes trouble shooting more difficult
|
| Quote: | 4. Makes subsequent mods, updates, equipment upgrades more difficult
|
| Quote: | Create essentially a fancy junction box that has a bunch of DB-9 & DB-25 connectors, one for each device and connects directly to each device. Then in this j-box, make all of the device A pin 1 to device B pin 7 inter-connections. This could all be soldered. It might make pin-sharing/splicing easier.
|
| Quote: | I'm aware that Advanced Flight Systems has a product that does something like this. I wonder how their inter-connection scheme works because of the multitude of interconnection possibilities with different avionics devices. It seems like all of the combinations/permutations would be difficult to manage on a circuit board.
|
| Quote: | Some advantages to this approach:
|
| Quote: | 1. Harnesses are much simpler
|
| Quote: | 2. All of the "intelligence" is in this j-box/switch-board which might make mods less labor intensive
|
| Quote: | Some disadvantages:
|
| Quote: | 1. Requires more connectors to get the job done
|
| Quote: | 2. Adds another component (weight?)
|
| Quote: | Any thoughts pro or con are greatly appreciated,
|
http://www.m=====================
http://forums.matronics.com
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http://wiki.matron========================
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:06 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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Not just more connectors. There’s a huge bunch of redundancy to most of the pins on the back of a GPS or VOR receiver or transceiver; of about 300 pins on the back of my IFD540 maybe 50 are connected; which 50 depends on what else is in the system (CDI/OBS or HSI? Autopilot? Second GPS slaved to first?) so either your standard cables to your patch box are immensely thick and bulky and expensive, or you have to make up custom cables to the patch box. In which case, you might as well make up a custom harness.
Honestly, it’s not difficult or complicated to make a harness; the complicated bit is working out what pin should connect to what pin, and you have to do that anyway.
On Jun 8, 2020, at 2:10 PM, James Quinn <jquinn3(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Approach Fast Stack has been doing this for years - buy a "Hub" and then a purpose build cable for each device.
On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 12:48 PM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:
Background:
Traditionally, all the inter-connections among avionics devices have been made via a carefully made custom-built wiring harness.
Most avionics use DB-9/DB-25 connectors and the custom wire harness approach comes down to connecting pin #1 on device A to pin #7 on device B and pin #2 of device A to pin #12 on device B, etc, etc. All this inter-connection is done in the harness.
I see some downside to this approach:
1. Makes the harness more difficult to fabricate
2. Possibly embeds splices in the harness
3. Makes trouble shooting more difficult
4. Makes subsequent mods, updates, equipment upgrades more difficult
Different Way?
Create essentially a fancy junction box that has a bunch of DB-9 & DB-25 connectors, one for each device and connects directly to each device. Then in this j-box, make all of the device A pin 1 to device B pin 7 inter-connections. This could all be soldered. It might make pin-sharing/splicing easier.
I'm aware that Advanced Flight Systems has a product that does something like this. I wonder how their inter-connection scheme works because of the multitude of interconnection possibilities with different avionics devices. It seems like all of the combinations/permutations would be difficult to manage on a circuit board.
Some advantages to this approach:
1. Harnesses are much simpler
2. All of the "intelligence" is in this j-box/switch-board which might make mods less labor intensive
Some disadvantages:
1. Requires more connectors to get the job done
2. Adds another component (weight?)
Any thoughts pro or con are greatly appreciated,
-Jeff
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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I, too, have wondered how they accommodate various 'random ' avionics. It wouldn't be too surprising if they're doing the 'pin relocation' task for you in the custom interconnect cables for which you're paying big bucks.
Charlie
On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 2:07 PM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
James,
Thanks for the reference to Approach Fast Stack. That pretty much validates the concept, doesn't it?
On Monday, June 8, 2020, 11:47:19 AM PDT, Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent or Jackie Ashton <kjashton(at)vnet.net (kjashton(at)vnet.net)>
Jim Weir wrote an article about a simpler(?) way to connect avionics. Personally, I thought it was about as easy to just develop some skill soldering D-subs and use the standard stuff. There are a few tricks to soldering them but once you have learned them, it is pretty easy.
http://www.rstengineering.com/rst/articles/karmic3.pdf
One technique is to strip the wire, apply a bit of solder to the wire end, heat up the side of the cup on the D-sub and simultaneously insert the wire end. It is pretty quick with the right iron and solder.
-Kent
| Quote: | Traditionally, all the inter-connections among avionics devices have been made via a carefully made custom-built wiring harness.Â
|
| Quote: | Most avionics use DB-9/DB-25 connectors and the custom wire harness approach comes down to connecting pin #1 on device A to pin #7 on device B and pin #2 of device A to pin #12 on device B, etc, etc. All this inter-connection is done in the harness.
|
| Quote: | I see some downside to this approach:
|
| Quote: | 1. Makes the harness more difficult to fabricate
|
| Quote: | 2. Possibly embeds splices in the harness
|
| Quote: | 3. Makes trouble shooting more difficult
|
| Quote: | 4. Makes subsequent mods, updates, equipment upgrades more difficult
|
| Quote: | Create essentially a fancy junction box that has a bunch of DB-9 & DB-25 connectors, one for each device and connects directly to each device. Then in this j-box, make all of the device A pin 1 to device B pin 7 inter-connections. This could all be soldered. It might make pin-sharing/splicing easier.
|
| Quote: | I'm aware that Advanced Flight Systems has a product that does something like this. I wonder how their inter-connection scheme works because of the multitude of interconnection possibilities with different avionics devices. It seems like all of the combinations/permutations would be difficult to manage on a circuit board.
|
| Quote: | Some advantages to this approach:
|
| Quote: | 1. Harnesses are much simpler
|
| Quote: | 2. All of the "intelligence" is in this j-box/switch-board which might make mods less labor intensive
|
| Quote: | Some disadvantages:
|
| Quote: | 1. Requires more connectors to get the job done
|
| Quote: | 2. Adds another component (weight?)
|
| Quote: | Any thoughts pro or con are greatly appreciated,
|
http://www.m=====================
http://forums.matronics.com
======================
http://wiki.matron========================
|
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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When I bought my Approach FastStack, I had them make the cables I needed at the time because it wasn't that much money. As things changed, I made my own cables.
The nice part is when you swap out a device, you just make a new cable for the connection between the device and the hub. Most interconnects between devices are done in the hub.
When I swapped GPS's, I reused the existing cable and just re-terminated the GPS end.
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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On 6/8/2020 8:04 PM, donjohnston wrote:
| Quote: |
When I bought my Approach FastStack, I had them make the cables I needed at the time because it wasn't that much money. As things changed, I made my own cables.
The nice part is when you swap out a device, you just make a new cable for the connection between the device and the hub. Most interconnects between devices are done in the hub.
Were all the connections 1-1, 2-2, etc, or did you have to rearrange pin
|
order?
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:07 pm Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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I wonder if interference could be a problem, and the subsequent troubleshooting thereof?
Best Regards,Bob Verwey
082 331 2727
[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]
On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 03:13, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>
When I bought my Approach FastStack, I had them make the cables I needed at the time because it wasn't that much money. As things changed, I made my own cables.Â
The nice part is when you swap out a device, you just make a new cable for the connection between the device and the hub. Most interconnects between devices are done in the hub.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496712#496712
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:09 am Post subject: Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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| bob.verwey(at)gmail.com wrote: | I wonder if interference could be a problem, and the subsequent troubleshooting thereof?
Best Regards,Bob Verwey |
None that I can tell after 5 years.
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:32 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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I used Approach FastStack to do my panel back around 2009, first flew in
2011 and 1200 hours now.
My initial panel consisted of (3) GRT HX units, G430, G327, SL30,
TruTrak AP, CO2 detector, a PS audio panel with (4) place jacks and (2)
place powered for the Bose.
Using the FastStack service and hub not only made the panel easy to
wire, but their detailed knowledge of exactly what needed to be hooked
up to what to get the fullest possible function from this combination of
components far exceeded my skill level. There were many connection
options between the various piece parts from different certified and
experimental avionic manufacturers. Put simply, they knew what I was
going to want before I knew it.
The FastStack hub is unpowered, dumb, and for the most part a
standardized device. The few internal modifications required were made
and documented before the original shipment and it's never required any
further update. The custom wiring harnesses were of the highest quality
according to my inexperienced eyes. Each cable is fully documented per
avionics device. There is a one page avionics connection summary that
is perhaps the most valuable bit of documentation for the entire aircraft.
When I added the NavWorx ADS600b, they supplied custom cables and
updated documentation at a reasonable price.
Recently I changed out the G327Â and Navworx for a Trig TT22 Transponder
and uAvioni echoUAT. The lead time on new cables was too long so I
modified some and added my own. The detailed documentation made this easy.
If one is going to do a DIY panel, I can't recommend this 'approach'
highly enough.
I guess that does further validate the OPs thinking.
Bill "flying the rust off and getting ready to go somewhere again" Watson
On 6/8/2020 9:04 PM, donjohnston wrote:
| Quote: |
When I bought my Approach FastStack, I had them make the cables I needed at the time because it wasn't that much money. As things changed, I made my own cables.
The nice part is when you swap out a device, you just make a new cable for the connection between the device and the hub. Most interconnects between devices are done in the hub.
|
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Faraon17
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Gilles
Joined: 16 May 2020
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:36 pm Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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Le 09/06/2020 à 21:27, Bill Watson a écrit :
| Quote: |
The FastStack hub is unpowered, dumb, and for the most part a standardized device. The few internal modifications required were made and documented before the original shipment and it's never required any further update.
|
This is hard to believe.
Or do you mean, when adding or removing a device they considered in advance when wiring this 'box ?
What if you want to make a mod they did not think of ?
I'd be wary of any connection 'box I don't know what the innards are made of if all it does is just connect things. How do you troubleshoot ?
| Quote: |
If one is going to do a DIY panel, I can't recommend this 'approach' highly enough.
|
Is it really DIY if one orders all the boxes and pre-made wire bundles, and just bolts the boxes in place and plugs factory made connectors ?
I personnally prefer the actual DIY way, drawing architecture and systems schematics and fabricating my own cables and connectors. Lighter, cheaper and really tailor-made.
But there are many ways to skin a cat 
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
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Best regards,
Gilles
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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| Quote: | I'd be wary of any connection 'box I don't know what the innards are made of if all it does is just connect things. How do you troubleshoot ?
|
The "innards" are just traces on a board. I can't imagine having to troubleshoot it, but if you did, it would be pretty easy.
| Quote: | Or do you mean, when adding or removing a device they considered in advance when wiring this 'box ?
What if you want to make a mod they did not think of ? |
In the event you have something outside of the typical device, you just modify the configuration plug.
| Quote: | | Is it really DIY if one orders all the boxes and pre-made wire bundles, and just bolts the boxes in place and plugs factory made connectors ? |
Is it really DIY if you buy a radio as opposed to building one yourself?
Is it really DIY if you buy an engine as opposed to building one yourself?
I could go on...
| Quote: | | I personnally prefer the actual DIY way, drawing architecture and systems schematics and fabricating my own cables and connectors. Lighter, cheaper and really tailor-made. |
You are certainly allowed to do that.
Personally, I like being able to choose which tasks of the build I do myself and which ones I purchase off the shelf.
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Gilles
Joined: 16 May 2020
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:33 am Post subject: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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Le 10/07/2020 à 02:24, donjohnston a écrit :
| Quote: | The "innards" are just traces on a board. I can't imagine having to troubleshoot it, but if you did, it would be pretty easy.
|
I meant, how do you troubleshoot your installation should anything go
wrong. You seem to imply they are providing their 'box schematics ?
| Quote: |
In the event you have something outside of the typical device, you just modify the configuration plug.
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OK, you just make another plug/connector/ bundle.
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Is it really DIY if you buy a radio as opposed to building one yourself?
Is it really DIY if you buy an engine as opposed to building one yourself?
I could go on...
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No problem.
I was just thinking of choosing one's items and *fabricating* something,
e.g. the bundles, plugs, connectors, as opposed to buying everything
premade.
| Quote: | Personally, I like being able to choose which tasks of the build I do myself and which ones I purchase off the shelf.
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You are certainly entitled to do that, and nobody would deny.
My questions were just to ascertain whether there really was a
"different way to wire avionics" or just another premade
bundle/interconnect box etc.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
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_________________
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr |
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Exploring a Different Way to Wire Avionics |
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| Quote: | I meant, how do you troubleshoot your installation should anything go
wrong. You seem to imply they are providing their 'box schematics ? |
Yes. You receive a wiring diagram which shows the connections.
| Quote: | My questions were just to ascertain whether there really was a
"different way to wire avionics" or just another premade
bundle/interconnect box etc. |
My previous airplane and and every other one I've looked had the avionics wired the same way. Cables connecting a device to one or more other devices. The audio panel seemed to have the most connections to other devices. That's one way.
In my current aircraft, there is only one physical cable between the devices (other that the audio panel and EFIS's which have two) and the hub. In my opinion, it's a different way of wiring avionics.
Which means if I want to change the type of com radio, all I need to do is build a new cable that connects the radio to the hub. I don't have to mess with the connections to the audio panel or the EFIS's. If the new radio is significantly different, I may need to modify the configuration plug on the hub. But for something like a com or nav radio, that's pretty unlikely.
Now in the interest of full disclosure, the hub has no power distribution. So every cable has a pigtail with two wires for power. So my Com1 cable has a red and black wire that connects to power and ground. Same for every other device cable. Some (like my EFIS) have three separate power leads. My GPS has additional leads for things like my ELT.
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