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VNE annual demonstrations.

 
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:04 am    Post subject: VNE annual demonstrations. Reply with quote
Hi John,
Are you or is anyone else familiar with the rationale why annual VNE dives are to be completed? I don’t understand the motive.
Thanks
Tony Renshaw
Quote:
On 16 Oct 2020, at 5:40 pm, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:

*

==================================================
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two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.

HTML Version:

http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 20-10-15&Archive=Europa

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================================================
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----------------------------------------------------------
Europa-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 10/15/20: 9
----------------------------------------------------------


Today's Message Index:
----------------------

1. 01:28 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (John Wighton)
2. 01:31 AM - Re: Lighter tailwheel (John Wighton)
3. 01:56 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (clivesutton)
4. 03:36 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (Remi Guerner)
5. 03:42 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (clivesutton)
6. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Lighter tailwheel (Richard Scanlan)
7. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (D McFadyean)
8. 09:53 AM - Classic (MikeP)
9. 10:19 AM - Re: Classic (david park)



________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________


Time: 01:28:49 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
From: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>


Pete,

The article is 10 years old -a period which represents approximately 1/12 (or 8%
ish) since Wright Bros made their mark. Much can happen in a very short time,
primarily due to the predictive tools we (as aeronautical engineers) have at
our disposal.

Jim's excellent article does, however, still contain good information. The key
elements being that there is a significant factor between Vne and Vd (typically
1.3-1.4), and that flutter should not occur before 1.2Vd. Hence no sane pilot
should get anywhere near. But that also assumes an aircraft is in tip-top
condition.

A simple route is to always fly using IAS. Ensure you have calibrated your ASI,
hence you are effectively flying CAS.

This actually ignites a pet subject of mine - the LAA permit renewal flight test,
which requires us all to be Test Pilots for the day - reaching Vne. A little
bit like cycling toward the edge of Beachy Head but (skillfully) avoiding plummeting
over the edge. We congratulate ourselves we are still alive - and then
have to go and do it again next year..........

--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498828#498828


________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________


Time: 01:31:09 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Lighter tailwheel
From: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>


Not cheap by any means but a Ti leg and wheel is about as light as you will get.

--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498829#498829


________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________


Time: 01:56:55 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
From: "clivesutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>


Hi Peter, thanks for posting this link to an excellent article - that explains
more clearly than i've ever seen anywhere, how Flutter is initiated and influenced.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498830#498830


________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________


Time: 03:36:47 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>


Great article on this critical subject. It would be interesting to find out how
the Europa has been evaluated during flight testing of the prototypes, especially
at what max altitude the Vd testing has been actually performed.
BTW it is always instructive to look at certificated aircraft manuals and see how
they handle any issue. The attached page is from the Cirrus SR22T POH. It shows
how they handle the VNE/flutter issue at high altitude. The VNE IAS is reduced
linearly above 17500 ft. from 205 kts to 175 kts at 25000 ft. Very few Europas
are operated at such high altitudes, but it may be advisable for their
pilots to consider reducing their VNE as Cirrus do.
Surprisingly Cirrus also reduce the VNO above 17500 ft: obviously this has nothing
to do with flutter, so why?

Remi Guerner


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498831#498831


Attachments:

http://forums.matronics.com//files/v_limits_sr22t_120.png


________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________


Time: 03:42:40 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
From: "clivesutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>


Good points John.

RE: the LAA annual VNe dive- what is your understanding of the reasoning behind
this LAA (supported by the UK CAA), requirement?


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498832#498832


________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________


Time: 06:29:29 AM PST US
From: Richard Scanlan <aspenbuild(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Lighter tailwheel


Hi John, can you give more details on this? Ti leg?

Sent from my iPad

> On 15 Oct 2020, at 09:30, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not cheap by any means but a Ti leg and wheel is about as light as you will get.
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498829#498829
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________


Time: 07:44:05 AM PST US
From: D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying


I'm happy that my Europa is only cleared to 1300lbs MTOWA and therefore I only
have to Vne-dive to 150knts, leaving the XSs to explore the class-envelope at
a much higher speed!

Duncan McF
do not archive
> On 15 October 2020 at 09:28 John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pete,
>
> The article is 10 years old -a period which represents approximately 1/12 (or
8% ish) since Wright Bros made their mark. Much can happen in a very short time,
primarily due to the predictive tools we (as aeronautical engineers) have
at our disposal.
>
> Jim's excellent article does, however, still contain good information. The key
elements being that there is a significant factor between Vne and Vd (typically
1.3-1.4), and that flutter should not occur before 1.2Vd. Hence no sane
pilot should get anywhere near. But that also assumes an aircraft is in tip-top
condition.
>
> A simple route is to always fly using IAS. Ensure you have calibrated your ASI,
hence you are effectively flying CAS.
>
> This actually ignites a pet subject of mine - the LAA permit renewal flight test,
which requires us all to be Test Pilots for the day - reaching Vne. A little
bit like cycling toward the edge of Beachy Head but (skillfully) avoiding
plummeting over the edge. We congratulate ourselves we are still alive - and
then have to go and do it again next year..........
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498828#498828
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________


Time: 09:53:08 AM PST US
Subject: Classic
From: "MikeP" <mpotts(at)clara.net>


Have just had one of the outriggers break, fortunately no damage.
Anyone in the UK got one or two after a tri-gear mod or just have a spare?

Thanks
Mike


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498837#498837


________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________


Time: 10:19:57 AM PST US
From: david park <dpark748(at)me.com>
Subject: Re: Classic


Will search garage tomo

Dave Park G-LDVO


> On 15 Oct 2020, at 18:07, MikeP <mpotts(at)clara.net> wrote:
>
>
> Have just had one of the outriggers break, fortunately no damage.
> Anyone in the UK got one or two after a tri-gear mod or just have a spare?
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498837#498837
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>










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Back to top
Duncan McFadyean



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:43 am    Post subject: VNE annual demonstrations. Reply with quote
To check there is no flutter?
If there is, the test doesn't have to be done again. EVER!
I suppose also to check that the controls haven't 'frozen' and that the aircraft can still be manoeuvred.

Duncan McF
do not archive
Quote:
On 16 October 2020 at 09:03 Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com> wrote:




Hi John,
Are you or is anyone else familiar with the rationale why annual VNE dives are to be completed? I don’t understand the motive.
Thanks
Tony Renshaw


> On 16 Oct 2020, at 5:40 pm, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:
>
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 20-10-15&Archive=Europa
>
> Text Version:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 20-10-15&Archive=Europa
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Europa-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 10/15/20: 9
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 01:28 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (John Wighton)
> 2. 01:31 AM - Re: Lighter tailwheel (John Wighton)
> 3. 01:56 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (clivesutton)
> 4. 03:36 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (Remi Guerner)
> 5. 03:42 AM - Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (clivesutton)
> 6. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Lighter tailwheel (Richard Scanlan)
> 7. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying (D McFadyean)
> 8. 09:53 AM - Classic (MikeP)
> 9. 10:19 AM - Re: Classic (david park)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:28:49 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
> From: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>
>
>
> Pete,
>
> The article is 10 years old -a period which represents approximately 1/12 (or 8%
> ish) since Wright Bros made their mark. Much can happen in a very short time,
> primarily due to the predictive tools we (as aeronautical engineers) have at
> our disposal.
>
> Jim's excellent article does, however, still contain good information. The key
> elements being that there is a significant factor between Vne and Vd (typically
> 1.3-1.4), and that flutter should not occur before 1.2Vd. Hence no sane pilot
> should get anywhere near. But that also assumes an aircraft is in tip-top
> condition.
>
> A simple route is to always fly using IAS. Ensure you have calibrated your ASI,
> hence you are effectively flying CAS.
>
> This actually ignites a pet subject of mine - the LAA permit renewal flight test,
> which requires us all to be Test Pilots for the day - reaching Vne. A little
> bit like cycling toward the edge of Beachy Head but (skillfully) avoiding plummeting
> over the edge. We congratulate ourselves we are still alive - and then
> have to go and do it again next year..........
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498828#498828
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:31:09 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Lighter tailwheel
> From: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net>
>
>
> Not cheap by any means but a Ti leg and wheel is about as light as you will get.
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498829#498829
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 01:56:55 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
> From: "clivesutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>
>
>
> Hi Peter, thanks for posting this link to an excellent article - that explains
> more clearly than i've ever seen anywhere, how Flutter is initiated and influenced.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498830#498830
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:36:47 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
> From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>
>
>
> Great article on this critical subject. It would be interesting to find out how
> the Europa has been evaluated during flight testing of the prototypes, especially
> at what max altitude the Vd testing has been actually performed.
> BTW it is always instructive to look at certificated aircraft manuals and see how
> they handle any issue. The attached page is from the Cirrus SR22T POH. It shows
> how they handle the VNE/flutter issue at high altitude. The VNE IAS is reduced
> linearly above 17500 ft. from 205 kts to 175 kts at 25000 ft. Very few Europas
> are operated at such high altitudes, but it may be advisable for their
> pilots to consider reducing their VNE as Cirrus do.
> Surprisingly Cirrus also reduce the VNO above 17500 ft: obviously this has nothing
> to do with flutter, so why?
>
> Remi Guerner
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498831#498831
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/v_limits_sr22t_120.png
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:42:40 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
> From: "clivesutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>
>
>
> Good points John.
>
> RE: the LAA annual VNe dive- what is your understanding of the reasoning behind
> this LAA (supported by the UK CAA), requirement?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498832#498832
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:29:29 AM PST US
> From: Richard Scanlan <aspenbuild(at)me.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Lighter tailwheel
>
>
> Hi John, can you give more details on this? Ti leg?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On 15 Oct 2020, at 09:30, John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Not cheap by any means but a Ti leg and wheel is about as light as you will get.
>>
>> --------
>> John Wighton
>> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498829#498829
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:44:05 AM PST US
> From: D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: Vne and flutter explained - Australian Flying
>
>
> I'm happy that my Europa is only cleared to 1300lbs MTOWA and therefore I only
> have to Vne-dive to 150knts, leaving the XSs to explore the class-envelope at
> a much higher speed!
>
> Duncan McF
> do not archive
>> On 15 October 2020 at 09:28 John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Pete,
>>
>> The article is 10 years old -a period which represents approximately 1/12 (or
> 8% ish) since Wright Bros made their mark. Much can happen in a very short time,
> primarily due to the predictive tools we (as aeronautical engineers) have
> at our disposal.
>>
>> Jim's excellent article does, however, still contain good information. The key
> elements being that there is a significant factor between Vne and Vd (typically
> 1.3-1.4), and that flutter should not occur before 1.2Vd. Hence no sane
> pilot should get anywhere near. But that also assumes an aircraft is in tip-top
> condition.
>>
>> A simple route is to always fly using IAS. Ensure you have calibrated your ASI,
> hence you are effectively flying CAS.
>>
>> This actually ignites a pet subject of mine - the LAA permit renewal flight test,
> which requires us all to be Test Pilots for the day - reaching Vne. A little
> bit like cycling toward the edge of Beachy Head but (skillfully) avoiding
> plummeting over the edge. We congratulate ourselves we are still alive - and
> then have to go and do it again next year..........
>>
>> --------
>> John Wighton
>> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498828#498828
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:53:08 AM PST US
> Subject: Classic
> From: "MikeP" <mpotts(at)clara.net>
>
>
> Have just had one of the outriggers break, fortunately no damage.
> Anyone in the UK got one or two after a tri-gear mod or just have a spare?
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498837#498837
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:19:57 AM PST US
> From: david park <dpark748(at)me.com>
> Subject: Re: Classic
>
>
> Will search garage tomo
>
> Dave Park G-LDVO
>
>
>> On 15 Oct 2020, at 18:07, MikeP <mpotts(at)clara.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Have just had one of the outriggers break, fortunately no damage.
>> Anyone in the UK got one or two after a tri-gear mod or just have a spare?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498837#498837
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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Matt Dovey



Joined: 13 May 2017
Posts: 48
Location: st albans, england
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: VNE annual demonstrations. Reply with quote
I usually just do it. Not really difficult. It is/was the same doing a C of A airtest. The aircraft was flown to VNE also. I suppose its for the reasons given above. Drop the LAA a line and ask the reasons why. There is a brief description on the VNE test in TL 2.06

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