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Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS
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foghorn757(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:46 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt.



Thoughts? 



Please go easy on me. ðŸ˜¬



Jeff Parker

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

The alternator "B" lead fuses should be physically located at the battery end of the B lead, not at the alternator end.

ANL fuses will carry their rated current indefinitely.  Replace the 80 amp fuse with 40 amp.

Replace the Aux 40 ANL with a Littelfuse Maxi 30 amp.

For the cost of sales tax on the VP-X, a fuse block and fuses could be purchased.

And fuses can be replaced anywhere by the pilot.

_________________
Joe Gores

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:10 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Jeff

Fundamentally I ask myself what your goal might be?Â  What are you trying 

to protect against?



With an immediate low voltage warning you are not going to continue 

flying blissfully unaware after an alternator has failed until the 

battery dies like so many have done in the past.

There would be no hurry whatsoever to close the crossfeed, or manually 

switch power sources after one z14 alternator quit, or do nothing and 

just land on the battery.



Why put relays in the feed path to the engine instead of a switch. Or 

two switches ganged together to feed from either of two sources. If you 

do use relays what is the power source to activate them.



In my case with independent ignitions I use a switch to each coil and 

either coil will run the engine.Â  No diodes because the coils are 

separate from each other.Â  My ecu's and coil drivers on the ground side 

of the coils operate regardless of whether their respective coils have 

+12 volts on them.

Ken



On 09/02/2020 7:44 AM, Foghorn Inc wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for 

 powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an 

 emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt.



 Thoughts?



 Please go easy on me. ðŸ˜¬



 Jeff Parker

foghorn757(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:33 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Hey Joe,



Thanks for the comments. The main Alt is 60a and the Aux Alt is 30+. I was under the impression that the ANL current limiter should be slightly larger than the ALT load. Hence the 80a and 40a ANL. I purchase most stuff from B&C and they donâ€™t sell a 70a ANL fuse to the best of my knowledge but Iâ€™ll see what I can find.



The VP-X is purchased and here to stay.



Thanks,



Jeff Parker



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 9Feb, 2020, at 09:28, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 The alternator "B" lead fuses should be physically located at the battery end of the B lead, not at the alternator end.

 ANL fuses will carry their rated current indefinitely.  Replace the 80 amp fuse with 40 amp.

 Replace the Aux 40 ANL with a Littelfuse Maxi 30 amp.

 For the cost of sales tax on the VP-X, a fuse block and fuses could be purchased.

 And fuses can be replaced by anywhere by the pilot.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494717#494717

foghorn757(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:58 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 9Feb, 2020, at 10:08, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>JeffFundamentally I ask myself what your goal might be? Continued IFR flight, inhospitable terrain over flight or I might fly it to Europe ðŸ˜.  What are you trying to protect against? Self induced engine failure.With an immediate low voltage warning you are not going to continue flying blissfully unaware after an alternator has failed until the battery dies like so many have done in the past.There would be no hurry whatsoever to close the crossfeed, or manually switch power sources after one z14 alternator quit, or do nothing and just land on the battery. I agree and believe this diagram addresses continued flight with minimal pilot input.Why put relays in the feed path to the engine instead of a switch. Or two switches ganged together to feed from either of two sources. If you do use relays what is the power source to activate them. Iâ€™m not tied to the relays. My thought process was to run a smaller gauge wire to the switch in the cockpit to activate the relays for the coils. Iâ€™m really looking for what is simple and works. In my case with independent ignitions I use a switch to each coil and either coil will run the engine.  No diodes because the coils are separate from each other.  My ecu's and coil drivers on the ground side of the coils operate regardless of whether their respective coils have +12 volts on them. KenOn 09/02/2020 7:44 AM, Foghorn Inc wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt.Thoughts?Please go easy on me. ðŸ˜¬Jeff Parker 	
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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

The main alternator has two labels. 40 & 60.  I only noticed the 40 amp label earlier.  I think that "one size larger" rule of thumb applies to circuit breakers, not ANL fuses.  Maybe Bob will chime in.

_________________
Joe Gores

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Re ANL current limiters.



Ref: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html



"There are some noteworthy characteristics of the ANL series devices. Note that they will carry nearly 2X their rated current indefinitely. This makes them behave more like the fusible links we've described elsewhere on this website. So, if you wish to size an ANL current limiter more in line with the output rating of your alternator, you could do so without regard to the "headroom"..."

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Hi Jeff... My 2 cents.



All... bear in mind:

Jeff and I are dual SDS EM-5-F four cylinder.

Jeff is RV-8 with one battery forward of firewall and one battery aft of baggage bulkhead and I am RV-6A with two batteries forward of firewall.

Six cylinder is different in some ways; the injector relays and ignition coils draw more current; I believe the fuel pumps are the same Walbro GSL393 units.



Placing the engine bus forward of the firewall agrees with FAR 23.1361.



For the engine bus feed 12 awg is conservative. I did current draw calculations, summarized at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Jho6rEreX6upko3hPlpTRoGAmE3MCj18zQzqbGkyMM/edit#gid=1724151884



I too made the engine bus always hot to eliminate a couple relays and switches but in your case of one battery rear of the baggage bulkhead I would use a relay at the battery. I verify the diodes are not open or shorted by using the Dynon D6 voltmeter on the engine bus. My engine operation checklist is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17gL5VBNBINsUWGvcAn5oU3dBuvL6c_QKnQUzpi2PggY/edit#gid=1116877898



FAR 23.1361 would have the fuel pumps on relays forward of the firewall.



The ignition coil relays need a jumper from relay coil to power from engine bus.



I don't know how to prove the injector relays are not stuck in the nominal/off/ECU 1 position if the ECUs are not switched. I used progressive ECU/Ignition Coil switches so the ECU can boot before powering the coil. Also on the engine operation checklist linked above.



Both injector relays can be on the same fuse, they draw 0.055 A each for a total of 0.110 A. The install manual incorrectly says 0.42 A each; currently at V30 rev 3 01/08/2020.



Wire from Blue Sea pass thru to starter contactor can be 4 awg.



Wire to aux alternator can be 8 awg or even 10 awg.



The ANL for main alternator would be close to the Blue Sea pass thru.



Consider using a relay for aux bus feed so there will not be a hot switch on the IP in any case and so all power to the cabin can be cut in a post crash scenario. I'm not sure what's the best name for the Aux Eng Bus Feed switch given it comes from the Main Batt.

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

ceengland7(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:16 AM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 The main alternator has two labels. 40 & 60.Â  I only noticed the 40 amp label earlier.Â  I think that "one size larger" rule of thumb applies to circuit breakers, not ANL fuses.Â  Maybe Bob will chime in.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

	
Specs are published by mfgrs. Bussman *non-time-delay* specs:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/product-datasheets-a/Bus_Ele_DS_2024_ANL.pdf

According to this doc, a 50A ANL will handle 100A for virtually unlimited duration. But for a catastrophicÂ fault, there's a very small difference (as a percentage of current orÂ  time to melt) between a 50A & an 80A. Ex:Â (at)120A, the 50A melts in 0.5 seconds while the 80A melts at 0.7 seconds.

Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:44 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. 	


   It doesn't really matter much since all busses

   are very robust. Put all engine loads on one

   bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be

   fine. No more busses needed



 

 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

At 09:31 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Foghorn Inc <foghorn757(at)gmail.com>



 Hey Joe,



 Thanks for the comments. The main Alt is 60a and the Aux Alt is 30+. I was under the impression that the ANL current limiter should be slightly larger than the ALT load. Hence the 80a and 40a ANL. I purchase most stuff from B&C and they donâ€™t sell a 70a ANL fuse to the best of my knowledge but Iâ€™ll see what I can find.



 The VP-X is purchased and here to stay. 	


   Unlike CIRCUIT BREAKERS . . .

   ANL (vintage) or MIDI/MANL (recommended) devices

   are CURRENT LIMITERS. Check out the specs



  https://tinyurl.com/by5qnop



   a CURRENT LIMITER is intended to clear

   hard faults (read: more amps than you'd

   like to have flowing anywhere on the

   airplane!).



   A current limiter will typically 

   carry it's rated current for a very

   long time.



 [img]cid:.0[/img] 



 

   150% of rating is still longer than you

   want a branch circuit protection to trip.



   But hit say a MIDI50 with 500A (1000%) fault

   and it's going to open in about 100 milliseconds.



   Short story, when purchasing current limiters,

   the size equal to your expected continuous

   current is fine . . .



   CIRCUIT BREAKERS are another story . . . and

   not recommended for alternator b-lead protection

   anyhow. Beech quit putting them into the b-leads

   about 3 or 4 decades ago . . .



 

   Bob . . .

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foghorn757(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:48 pm Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Thanks Bob! Iâ€™ll go with it and get some MIDI/MANL current limiters at the ALTs rated power.

Jeff Parker 	  Quote: 	
		  On 9Feb, 2020, at 14:39, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

  At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. 	
   It doesn't really matter much since all busses   are very robust. Put all engine loads on one   bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be   fine. No more busses needed  

   Bob . . .

Marvin McGraw

Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

 	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. 	


   It doesn't really matter much since all busses

   are very robust. Put all engine loads on one

   bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be

   fine. No more busses needed



 

 

   Bob . . . 	




If I understand this correctly, you are saying:

(1) do not add the engine bus

(2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either battery bus

(3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie



Am I missing anything?

Marvin McGraw

Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

 	  Marvin McGraw wrote: 	
		   	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. 	


   It doesn't really matter much since all busses

   are very robust. Put all engine loads on one

   bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be

   fine. No more busses needed



 

 

   Bob . . . 	




If I understand this correctly, you are saying:

(1) do not add the engine bus

(2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either battery bus

(3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie



Am I missing anything? 	




Correction:

(2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either the main bus or the aux bus

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

 	  Marvin McGraw wrote: 	
		   	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. 	


   It doesn't really matter much since all busses

   are very robust. Put all engine loads on one

   bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be

   fine. No more busses needed



 

   Bob . . . 	




If I understand this correctly, you are saying:

(1) do not add the engine bus

(2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either the main bus or the aux bus

(3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie



Am I missing anything? 	




Hi Marvin,



Have you seen Z101? Bob N started developing it just after the OP's (Jeff Parker) post and Jeff has moved to a schematic using Z101 as a template. It's installed in his RV-8 project and has been powered up but not flying yet.



In case you don't have a link to the Z-dwgs they are at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/



I don't know if this info helps you. I know you have Z14 flying with dual SDS EFI/I.

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

Marvin McGraw

Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

 	  nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: 	
		  At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. 	


   It doesn't really matter much since all busses

   are very robust. Put all engine loads on one

   bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be

   fine. No more busses needed



 

 

   Bob . . . 	




If I follow this advice, is there a way to turn off both battery contactors in flight for a smoke in the cockpit scenario?  It seems the engine would need additional electical protection.

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:27 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 If I follow this advice, is there a way to turn off both battery contactors in flight for a smoke in the cockpit scenario?  It seems the engine would need additional electical protection.

  	


   Yeah . . . that's why Z101 came into being. Fewer components,

   robust, dual fed busses. For smoke in cockpit, close

   battery feed to engine bus . . . shut down all other

   switches.



 

   Bob . . .

david(at)carter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

Bob - I'm implementing Z101 now as a retrofit in my RV-7A. Your response reminded me of a question I had. Is there a reason not to operate with the engine bus alt feed always on? And the same question for the aux alternator field? I'm using the B&C standbyÂ regulator rather than the Ford regulator since I had one laying around if that makes any difference.Â 



Thanks!

David

---

David Carter

david(at)carter.net (david(at)carter.net)



On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:29 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     	  Quote: 	
		  



 If I follow this advice, is there a way to turn off both battery contactors in flight for a smoke in the cockpit scenario?Â  It seems the engine would need additional electical protection.

 Â  	


 Â  Yeah . . . that's why Z101 came into being. Fewer components,

 Â  robust, dual fed busses. For smoke in cockpit, close

 Â  battery feed to engine bus . . . shut down all other

 Â  switches.



 

 Â  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:11 pm Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

At 02:51 PM 11/10/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bumping the question. Looking for the same info. 



 Jeff Parker

 757-817-4929



  	  Quote: 	
		  On Nov 7, 2020, at 12:31, David Carter <david(at)carter.net> wrote:



 ï»¿

 Bob - I'm implementing Z101 now as a retrofit in my RV-7A. Your response reminded me of a question I had. Is there a reason not to operate with the engine bus alt feed always on? And the same question for the aux alternator field? I'm using the B&C standby regulator rather than the Ford regulator since I had one laying around if that makes any difference. 

 	
	


   Any time the main bus is up, all busses are up

   and position of other switches has no effect

   on operation of the airplane. Alternate

   feed path integrity should be checked in pre-flight.

     

   What advantage do you perceive for running full-up

   on power distribution options? You still need a

   plan-b protocol for responding to abnormal

   conditions. Does it make your task easier

   to figure out what to shut off as opposed to

   what to turn on?



   The elegant plan-b offers specific responses

   to an abnormal condition . . . how you choose

   to configure is your call.

   



 

 

   Bob . . .



   Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes

   survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane

   out of that stuff?"

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:59 pm Post subject: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS

On 11/10/2020 5:07 PM, Robert L.       Nuckolls, III wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                At 02:51 PM 11/10/2020, you wrote:

               	  Quote: 	
		  Bumping           the question. Looking           for the same info. 

           

           Jeff Parker

           757-817-4929

           

                   	  Quote: 	
		  On             Nov 7, 2020, at 12:31, David             Carter <david(at)carter.net> (david(at)carter.net) wrote:

             

             ï»¿

             Bob - I'm implementing Z101 now as a retrofit in my RV-7A.             Your response             reminded me of a question I had. Is there a reason not to             operate with             the engine bus alt feed always on? And the same question for             the aux             alternator field? I'm using the B&C standby regulator             rather than the             Ford regulator since I had one laying around if that makes             any             difference. 

           	
       	
       

         Any time the main bus is up, all busses are up

         and position of other switches has no effect

         on operation of the airplane. Alternate

         feed path integrity should be checked in pre-flight.

           

         What advantage do you perceive for running full-up

         on power distribution options? You still need a

         plan-b protocol for responding to abnormal

         conditions. Does it make your task easier

         to figure out what to shut off as opposed to

         what to turn on?

       

         The elegant plan-b offers specific responses

         to an abnormal condition . . . how you choose

         to configure is your call.

         

       

       

                

             Bob . . .

                	
     I'm not Jeff, but I plan on having the engine bus switch on whenever     the engine is running, with the alternate power path coming through     a diode from the main bus. My *logic* is that the dual active power     paths minimize any potential 'operational issues' (failures in power     delivery to the engine bus, for reasons ranging from device failure     to inadvertent switch movement) that could come up at times when     options/reaction time are limited, like shortly after takeoff or     being forced to remain at low altitude  due to 'airliner pattern'     approaches flown by leading traffic. The core driver is to not based     on calculated odds, but on being prepared as well as possible for     what *can* happen.

     

     Another motivator is that 'switchology' (actually, procedures),     while unavoidably different from traditional a/c engine     installations, will be as close as possible to decades of training,     where in certain emergencies we're trained to shut down everything     except the engine. Again, not probability driven, but for what *can*     happen.

     

     Obviously, proper functionality will be checked before takeoff.

     

     Charlie

     	          		Virus-free. www.avast.com 		 	 [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]

_________________
Charlie

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