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Is 160 F too cold?

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.



Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it.

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.Â  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps.

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution?

Thanks

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Will,Stick sum aluminium tape over the cooler entrance. Enough coverage to satisfy temperature required. Works a treat.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 11/01/2021, at 7:09 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ï»¿We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.



Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it.

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps.

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution?

Thanks

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Tim

do you have a rule of thumb for how much as in 1" = 10F?

thanks

Will

William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:11 PM timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Will,Stick sum aluminium tape over the cooler entrance. Enough coverage to satisfy temperature required. Works a treat.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,Â 

Fendalton,Â 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)Â 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 11/01/2021, at 7:09 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



ï»¿We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.



Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it.

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.Â  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps.

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution?

Thanks

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Oil thermostat. That way you donâ€™t have to take the tape on and off. Itâ€™s all automatic.



Kevin Challis

G ODJG 





 	  Quote: 	
		  On 10 Jan 2021, at 19:11, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿Will,Stick sum aluminium tape over the cooler entrance. Enough coverage to satisfy temperature required. Works a treat.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 11/01/2021, at 7:09 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ï»¿We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.



Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it.

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps.

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution?

Thanks

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Ah yes I remember seeing that on the list.



So can you explain?  What thermostat to use and how to plumb it in.  Thanks

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

By the way...I take it that 160F is in fact too cold for the oilÂ temp...Is that correct?

Will running at this temp damage my engine (well obviouslyÂ eventually)?

William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:46 PM Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com (cakeykev(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Oil thermostat. That way you donâ€™t have to take the tape on and off. Itâ€™s all automatic.



Kevin Challis

G ODJGÂ 





 	  Quote: 	
		  On 10 Jan 2021, at 19:11, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:



ï»¿Will,Stick sum aluminium tape over the cooler entrance. Enough coverage to satisfy temperature required. Works a treat.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,Â 

Fendalton,Â 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)Â 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 11/01/2021, at 7:09 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



ï»¿We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.



Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it.

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.Â  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps.

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution?

Thanks

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:04 pm Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

I got mine from Skydrive in the Uk. It bypasses the oil cooler until the correct temperature is reached so itâ€™s opening and closing all the time. Itâ€™s only a small unit. 

Kevin Challis



 	  Quote: 	
		  On 10 Jan 2021, at 19:51, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ï»¿Ah yes I remember seeing that on the list.  

So can you explain?  What thermostat to use and how to plumb it in.  Thanks.

Will





William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:46 PM Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com (cakeykev(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Oil thermostat. That way you donâ€™t have to take the tape on and off. Itâ€™s all automatic.



Kevin Challis

G ODJG 





 	  Quote: 	
		  On 10 Jan 2021, at 19:11, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:



ï»¿Will,Stick sum aluminium tape over the cooler entrance. Enough coverage to satisfy temperature required. Works a treat.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz) 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 11/01/2021, at 7:09 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



ï»¿We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.



Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it.

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps.

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution?

Thanks

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Will, 

Strange, I just went through a class on this very issue with some light sport guys complaining now that it has gotten a little cooler.  They overheat in the summer and cant get warm enough to take off in the winter.  

  

For your particular question: 

The standard engine rule of thumb (ROT) is thou shalt always get the oil temp above water boiling (about 212-220 F) for a minimum of 10-20 minutes to get the water boiled out from the humidity in the air so as to prevent rust. 

  

Running continuous operations temperature rule is: thou shall try to maintain a minimum of 180 F to keep the humidity out and allow the oil viscosity to be in the normal range. 

  

The minimum continuous oil temp is considered 120 F by most rules of thumb for a semisynthetic.  Higher for non synthetic.  Full synthetic doesnâ€™t matter much. 

  

Our Rotax is near those ROT (normal ops is 190-230 F, 120 F min and 260 F is high) when used with a semisynthetic oil like Aeroshell Sport plus 4.  Full synthetic Mobile One MX4T (The Racing T for four stroke motorcycles for use with unleaded  gas) doesnâ€™t matter much on temp.  Hot or cold Mobile one is excellent as a lubricant.  Since we 100LL guys must use a semisynthetic (Sport +4), our low end oil viscosity is a little more critical.  Hence, 120 F for high power is reasonable for takeoff and  cruise from the lubrication standpoint.   If the minimum wasnâ€™t good enough, there wouldnâ€™t be a minimum. 

  

There are four ways to control oil temp in an airplane. 

A thermostat, the heat exchanger, the radiator inlet/exit blocking and cowl inlet/exit control (cowl flap). 

  

This thread has many examples and discussions in the archives from long ago.  Research the archives and see. 

My concern here in Florida where we normally operate from 30-95F OAT is :  Donâ€™t fret it for a few degrees low for an hour or so as long as you got the oil above 220 for about 10 minutes during climb and can cruise above 120 on the coldest  of days.  You have a turbo, the oil rarely gets below 160F even in winter.  912 and 912S guys get cooler oil than we do. 

   

Proâ€™s and Conâ€™s to control: 

The thermostat:  (See: Aircraft Spruce for THERMOSTASIS OIL TEMPERATURE CONTROL FOR ROTAX 912 UL / ULS / 914UL and others)  

Pro:   

Faster oil temp warm up. 

Warmer temps at cruise in very cold climates. 

In the northern latitudes they are perfectly acceptable. 

  

Con: 

A thermostat if stuck will drive your oil temp sky high and force you to land in a semi emergency.  There is a small bypass so the oil pressure should stay up but the oil inlet line is under a lot of suction, so use good oil line to prevent  the oil inlet line from collapsing. 

A thermostat at fully open still restricts the oil flow slightly so in the summer they tend to run too hot here in Florida when climbing out.  So you have to remove them in summer or operate too near the redline. 

With a thermostat you loose all control over your oil temp.  The bimetal spring is in control. 

Extra plumbing and weight.  Read as more clutter under the hood. 

Cost is not terrible though. 

  

The Heat Exchanger: (See Laminova and CR racing products in your search engine.) 

These are a tube with glycol running on the outside and the oil on the inside.  I have some experience with the Laminova factory support.  Pretty good guys with a lot of knowledge. 

Pro:   

Both the coolant and oil nearly run at equal temperatures. This is fine for the Rotax normally. 

They are adjustable with an orifice bypass to slow the oil flow through the tube fins but not restrict the oil pressure to adjust the oil temp. 

Warm up of the oil is nearly as fast as the thermostat. 

Year round performance is better than the thermostat but still not perfect. 

  

Con: 

It takes time to get the bypass flow adjusted to get exactly the temp differential you desire. 

More space and plumbing routing required under the hood. 

More cost, and weight. 

  

The Inlet Control:  (See Aircraft Spruce â€œANTI-SPLAT OIL COOLER AIR SHUTTERâ€) 

The RV community uses a shutter behind or in front of their oil cooler to regulate temperature. 

Normally the pilot closes on start/taxi, open for takeoff, close partially for cruise. 

  

Pro: 

Pilot has direct control of his oil cooling. 

No restrictions or significant weight increase. 

  

Con: 

Pilot has direct control of his oil cooling.  Forget to open on takeoff and climb and the warning lights will shine. 

Mechanically  they just always need the craftsmanâ€™s touch to install, clearance, and then control.  Most of these are made for standard aircraft oil coolers. 

  

The old school solution is to make a piece of metal that fits the oil cooler face that is easy to install and then try it.  Block half the cooler first, then cut holes as needed.  In the spring, take it off.  I have used aluminized tape  (like the HVAC guys use) and just taped over the oil cooler inlet exposed below the radiator for really cold days for in flight warm up but paid a little on high oil temp on climb...  The Europa is ideal for making a plate in the inlet that moves like a throttle  plate to regulate ground and flight temps without cowl modification.  Warm up is faster but donâ€™t forget to open the butterfly. 

  

Tape and plates donâ€™t help warm the oil really fast like a thermostat/heat exchanger/full cooler shutter. 

  

Cowl Flap:  (Must be fabricated) 

This is the tried and true method of control of the engine temperature.  That is what Cooling 101 hinted at.   

Pro: 

The pilot has control. 

Performance is increased as the cooling drag is reduced. 

Con: 

Obviously you have to redesign the cowl. 

Much fabrication needed. 

Sealed ducting is essential, read as a lot of attention to detail. 

  

Do your research.  Research your oil, oil system, graph out your oil/coolant temps and times and determine what is best for your climate. 

  

My 914 on a cold day in Florida at 7000 feet typically in winter with an OAT of 0 F still runs at 140-160 about 5000 RPM.  The semisynthetic is still nice and runny, oil temps are reasonable.  In climb I typically see about 220 F on a really  cold day (30 F) from takeoff to level off.  The oil stays about 140 at cruise at 5000 RPM when sub zero at altitude.  Higher at 5500 of course. 

  

I have found for Florida or summer ops in the US, the oil thermostat is a bit too hot in the summer during climb out but fine in cruise.  The butterfly is OK if you donâ€™t forget, and if you run good quality oil, the water/oil coolers once  adjusted, work OK with the Rotax winter and summer.  With no modification, Iâ€™m OK at 120 F on really cold days but you sit at the end of the runway for a long time getting the oil temp up.  If I need to put tape on, I donâ€™t go fly.  If I had to fly, I would  fit a butterfly in the inlet because I am lazy.  Iâ€™m also getting forgetful so Iâ€™d probably need a temp warning light to remind me I hadnâ€™t opened the flap. 

  

This is one of those 20,000 compromises, so choose wisely.  Test, and verify over the seasons.  Find out what works for you. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

  

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of William Daniell

 Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2021 2:50 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Is 160 F too cold? 

 

    

By the way...I take it that 160F is in fact too cold for the oil temp...Is that correct? 

  

Will running at this temp damage my engine (well obviously eventually)? 

         

William Daniell 

 

LONGPORT 

 

  

+1 786 878 0246 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

    

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:46 PM Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com (cakeykev(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 

  	  Quote: 	
		    

Oil thermostat. That way you donâ€™t have to take the tape on and off. Itâ€™s all automatic.  

Kevin Challis 

  

G ODJG   

  

 

  



 

   	  Quote: 	
		   

On 10 Jan 2021, at 19:11, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:   

ï»¿Will,  

Stick sum aluminium tape over the cooler entrance. Enough coverage to satisfy temperature required. Works a treat. 

  

Cheers, 

  

Tim  

Sent from my iPad  

Tim Ward 

  

12 Waiwetu Street,  

  

Fendalton,  

  

Christchurch, 8052 

  

New Zealand. 

  

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)  

  

021 0640221 

 

  



 

   	  Quote: 	
		   

On 11/01/2021, at 7:09 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:   

ï»¿  

We have a cold front here in fl...56F oat.  

  

  

Last summer - 90+f and humid as hell - i had high oil temp so i dropped my cooler a further 1/2" which cured it. 

  

  

  

Now with the cold front my oil temp is 160 in cruise.  This is not within the rotax normal operating temps. 

  

  

  

Is this an issue and if so what is the solution? 

  

  

  

Thanks 

  

  

  

Will  

William Daniell

 +1 786 878 0246

erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Hi William,



As far as engine damage, I canâ€™t say.  However, it is outside the recommended temperature range specified by Rotax.   I had contemplated installing an oil thermostat to solve the same issue, and decided to fabricate a cowl flap instead.   Works very well.  



I close it off completely for engine start and initial warm up.   I then either open or close it to maintain CHT/oil temps in the specified range.  As a bonus I pick a few knots in cruise, especially in the winter months when, I have it almost completely closed.



In use a small electric actuator to move the flap.  I donâ€™t have the standard Europa firewall forward, so my installation is different.  However, Jim Butcher fabricated a similar cowl flap for the Europa XS. He usually monitors the forum.



Regards,

Erich



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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:26 pm Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Thanks everyone for the responses.Â  A lot to think of.Â  For now i have ordered some high temp tape...while i consider my options.Appreciate all the options offered

Will



William Daniell

+1 786 878 0246



On Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 11:57 Erich Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com (erichdtrombley(at)juno.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Erich Trombley <erichdtrombley(at)juno.com (erichdtrombley(at)juno.com)>

 

 Hi William,

 

 As far as engine damage, I canâ€™t say.Â  However, it is outside the recommended temperature range specified by Rotax.Â  Â I had contemplated installing an oil thermostat to solve the same issue, and decided to fabricate a cowl flap instead.Â  Â Works very well.Â  

 

 I close it off completely for engine start and initial warm up.Â  Â I then either open or close it to maintain CHT/oil temps in the specified range.Â  As a bonus I pick a few knots in cruise, especially in the winter months when, I have it almost completely closed.

 

 In use a small electric actuator to move the flap.Â  I donâ€™t have the standard Europa firewall forward, so my installation is different.Â  However, Jim Butcher fabricated a similar cowl flap for the Europa XS. He usually monitors the forum.

 

 Regards,

 Erich

 

 

 

 ____________________________________________________________

 Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more

 

 House Democrats Introduce Article of Impeachment

 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5ffc823ab415123917e5st01duc1

 Promotion for Kim Jong Un, With Possible Dis for Sis

 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5ffc823ad8e4223917e5st01duc2

 In Letter on Capitol Riot, Melania Trump Swings Back

 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5ffc823b91ca23917e5st01duc3

 

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h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Is 160 F too cold?

Will,



Here are some details of the cowl flap we have.



Jim & Heather



PS  Before the cowl flap, we just used HVAC aluminum tape from Lowes to cover some of the oil cooler.

Cowl Flap.docx

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

Thanks Jim

William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 8:36 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

 

 Will,

 

 Here are some details of the cowl flap we have.

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 PSÂ  Before the cowl flap, we just used HVAC aluminum tape from Lowes to cover some of the oil cooler.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500153#500153

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/cowl_flap_187.docx

 

 

 

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:04 am Post subject: Is 160 F too cold?

thanks jim

Will

William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 8:36 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

 

 Will,

 

 Here are some details of the cowl flap we have.

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 PSÂ  Before the cowl flap, we just used HVAC aluminum tape from Lowes to cover some of the oil cooler.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500153#500153

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/cowl_flap_187.docx

 

 

 

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