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David Lamphere
Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 19
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
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 Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:15 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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I’m puzzled.
I have the alternator setup on the bench as described before.
If I have it all connected (gnd, field, output, pos) and turn on the electric motor
it does not charge. Stays at battery V (12.4V or so)
If I disconnect the battery negative (ground) lead, start up the motor and THEN connect the ground
it generates 14.2V and charges the battery.
If I shut off the motor and do not disconnect anything and start the motor again - it does not charge!
Why?
And how on earth am I going to get this to work in the airplane??
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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On 1/19/2021 2:10 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | I’m puzzled.
I have the alternator setup on the bench as described before.
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| Quote: |
If I have it all connected (gnd, field, output, pos) and turn on the electric motor
it does not charge. Stays at battery V (12.4V or so)
If I disconnect the battery negative (ground) lead, start up the motor and THEN connect the ground
it generates 14.2V and charges the battery.
If I shut off the motor and do not disconnect anything and start the motor again - it does not charge!
Why?
And how on earth am I going to get this to work in the airplane?? |
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What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field?
BTW, regular photos (.jpg images) will display in most email clients automatically, but .pdf files require a separate download operation to see them.
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David Lamphere
Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 19
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:08 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
On 1/19/2021 2:10 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
Any theories?
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=x-msg://25/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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David Lamphere
Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 19
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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sorry for the cutting error…On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? ANSWER:
It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
Any theories?
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=x-msg://25/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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johnbright
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator behavior |
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My theory is that the wire you call field is actually enable and the car knows how to handle it.
My second theory, or concern, is that the alternator will remain functional after power is removed from the enable wire. This would mean that in a fire-in-the-cockpit scenario you would not be able to kill the main bus without stopping the propeller.
I would connect B+ and ground, spin the alternator, then connect the "field"... then disconnect the "field".
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John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links
Last edited by johnbright on Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:26 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | sorry for the cutting error… On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? ANSWER:
It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
Any theories?
|
I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. 
I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in the AEC web view.
>>
No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the control terminal is left floating until after spin-up.
My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay).
One theory that just occurred to me (purely speculative) is the possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that.
Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then opening/closing the control line?
Charlie
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David Lamphere
Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 19
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:24 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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Charlie,
This alternator just came back from Hartzell/PlanePower. They told me it passed their tests and denied warranty replacement.
I informed them of my intent to bench test before putting it back in the plane.
The engineer I was communicating with implied they could only help with aircraft installation troubleshooting.
I have sent them the same information I have posted and as of yet not heard back from them.
I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power - but that’s something that just doesn’t seem right to me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting).
By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I’ll try that in the morning.
Thanks for your help.
DaveOn Jan 19, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | sorry for the cutting error… On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? ANSWER:
It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
Any theories?
|
I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in the AEC web view. >> No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the control terminal is left floating until after spin-up. My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay). One theory that just occurred to me (purely speculative) is the possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that. Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then opening/closing the control line? Charlie
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | If I shut off the motor and
do not disconnect anything and start the motor again - it does not
charge!
Why?
And how on earth am I going to get this to work in the airplane??
|
|
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? |
Agreed. It doesn't operate in the airplane
like you're testing it on the bench.
The internal regulator is fitted with certain
'features' that don't exist in legacy regulators
popular in aircraft. The thing MIGHT be designed
to keep the alternator dormant if field control
and motive power come up at the same time.
Modern engine control modules wait until the
engine is stable after cranking before adding
alternator loads.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:18 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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| Quote: | I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power - but that’s something that just doesn’t seem right to me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting).
By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I’ll try that in the morning.
Thanks for your help. |
The PP alternator of a decade ago
may have a completely different control
philosophy. I've always left the alternator
OFF until the engine is running smoothly.
Works good.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:36 pm Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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Isn't the PP alt internally regulated? Assuming it is, then the 'field' terminal isn't actually a field terminal; it's simply a control terminal. A true field terminal is tied directly to one end of the field coil in the alternator; not the case with a PP or other internally regulated alternator.
When I said to call PP, I meant to tell them what you're now seeing. Install it in the plane (to satisfy PP), crank with the alt switch off, turn the switch on, and see if it starts charging. Assuming it does, explain the process you went through to PP & ask them if the behavior is 'normal'. You may just be experiencing PP's 'failure to communicate' how the alt is supposed to act.
If they tell you that it's 'normal', then I guess that unfortunately, you get to decide whether to live with it, or pick a different product.
Good luck,
Charlie
On 1/19/2021 8:20 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | Charlie,
This alternator just came back from Hartzell/PlanePower. They told me it passed their tests and denied warranty replacement.
I informed them of my intent to bench test before putting it back in the plane.
The engineer I was communicating with implied they could only help with aircraft installation troubleshooting.
I have sent them the same information I have posted and as of yet not heard back from them.
I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power - but that’s something that just doesn’t seem right to me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting).
By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I’ll try that in the morning.
Thanks for your help.
Dave On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | sorry for the cutting error… On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? ANSWER:
It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
Any theories?
|
I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in the AEC web view. >> No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the control terminal is left floating until after spin-up. My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay). One theory that just occurred to me (purely speculative) is the possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that. Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then opening/closing the control line? Charlie
|
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Charlie |
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David Lamphere
Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 19
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:05 am Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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Now that is interesting! I wonder if anyone else with new PP alternators has to do the same thing?
Anyway, thank you for the information!
Dave
On Jan 19, 2021, at 10:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power - but that’s something that just doesn’t seem right to me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting). By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I’ll try that in the morning. Thanks for your help. |
The PP alternator of a decade ago may have a completely different control philosophy. I've always left the alternator OFF until the engine is running smoothly. Works good.
Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?"
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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David Lamphere
Joined: 20 Oct 2019
Posts: 19
Location: Culpeper, Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:50 am Post subject: Alternator behavior |
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Charlie,
I ran the test that you suggested (all connections, start motor, disconnect and reconnect field) this morning.
Sure enough, it started charging after the reconnection.
Having the driveway graveled this morning. When I can get to the airport next, I’ll reinstall the alternator and go from there.
Thanks again.
Dave
On Jan 19, 2021, at 10:34 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Isn't the PP alt internally regulated? Assuming it is, then the 'field' terminal isn't actually a field terminal; it's simply a control terminal. A true field terminal is tied directly to one end of the field coil in the alternator; not the case with a PP or other internally regulated alternator. When I said to call PP, I meant to tell them what you're now seeing. Install it in the plane (to satisfy PP), crank with the alt switch off, turn the switch on, and see if it starts charging. Assuming it does, explain the process you went through to PP & ask them if the behavior is 'normal'. You may just be experiencing PP's 'failure to communicate' how the alt is supposed to act. If they tell you that it's 'normal', then I guess that unfortunately, you get to decide whether to live with it, or pick a different product. Good luck, Charlie On 1/19/2021 8:20 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | Charlie,
This alternator just came back from Hartzell/PlanePower. They told me it passed their tests and denied warranty replacement.
I informed them of my intent to bench test before putting it back in the plane.
The engineer I was communicating with implied they could only help with aircraft installation troubleshooting.
I have sent them the same information I have posted and as of yet not heard back from them.
I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power - but that’s something that just doesn’t seem right to me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting).
By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I’ll try that in the morning.
Thanks for your help.
Dave On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
| Quote: | sorry for the cutting error… On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? ANSWER:
It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
Any theories?
|
I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in the AEC web view. >> No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the control terminal is left floating until after spin-up. My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay). One theory that just occurred to me (purely speculative) is the possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that. Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then opening/closing the control line? Charlie
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