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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:03 am Post subject: Vents

Any suggestions on cockpit vents. I am not far off painting my fuselage but haven't added any vents yet. The supplied ones are not durable. I tried to get the ones Ivan was looking for but they are no longer made. Tempted by the square piper ones from aircraftspruce.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

Martin Olliver

Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 35

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Vents

Hello Graeme.

 I have the same situation re air vents in my current Europa. 

I fitted the round type in my previous Europa and they worked very well. As they are no longer an option I think the best solution is the square type used by the RV builders. 

Has anyone any experience of how efficient they are and what position were they fitted?

 In my last Europa I fitted the round type [Ultimate Ventilator] in the side wall aft of the panel. However the down side of this position was that on occasion my headset mike would pick up wind whistle. 

Has any one fitted the square RV type of vent in the overhead position? What if any problems were found? I imagine Rain/water ingress could be a problem if the aircraft is parked outside without a cover.

Hitchflight

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 94
Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Vents

Hi Gentlemen 



They do exist.



Good news and good news.

https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/air-o-vent



Regards



Bob

Martin Olliver

Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 35

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Vents

Thanks for the info Bob. I will look into them.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:35 am Post subject: Vents

Thanks Bob. Very interested in the vents as getting hot here now. Particularly taxying at airports on a hot day, I usually open and hold a door to ventilate.Will zoom in on the 6th Feb.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 30/01/2021, at 1:44 AM, Hitchflight <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com> wrote:



ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by: "Hitchflight" <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com>



Hi Gentlemen 



They do exist.



Good news and good news.

https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/air-o-vent



Regards



Bob





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500455#500455





<====================================================bsp;     - List Contribution Web Site -

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: Vents

better than the originals, having and O-ring!Â  Nice!

I'd like to get a pair....

Cheers,

Pete Z



On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 2:43 PM timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob. Very interested in the vents as getting hot here now. Particularly taxying at airports on a hot day, I usually open and hold a door to ventilate.Will zoom in on the 6th Feb.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street,Â 

Fendalton,Â 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)Â 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 30/01/2021, at 1:44 AM, Hitchflight <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)> wrote:



ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by: "Hitchflight" <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)>



Hi Gentlemen 



They do exist.



Good news and good news.

https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/air-o-vent



Regards



Bob





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500455#500455





<==bsp;Â Â Â Â Â - List Contribution Web Site -

m(at)grassfam.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:02 pm Post subject: Vents

I would be interested in a pair as well. 



Thanks

Michael GraÃŸ



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Jan 29, 2021, at 4:29 PM, Pete Zut <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



ï»¿better than the originals, having and O-ring!  Nice!

I'd like to get a pair....

Cheers,

Pete Z



On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 2:43 PM timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob. Very interested in the vents as getting hot here now. Particularly taxying at airports on a hot day, I usually open and hold a door to ventilate.Will zoom in on the 6th Feb.

Cheers,

Tim



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz) 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 30/01/2021, at 1:44 AM, Hitchflight <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)> wrote:



ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by: "Hitchflight" <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)>



Hi Gentlemen 



They do exist.



Good news and good news.

https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/air-o-vent



Regards



Bob





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500455#500455





<==bsp;     - List Contribution Web Site -

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Vents

Check out the NACA Vents from Peter Anson



capilopl(at)bigpond.com.au

_________________
46

kjburns(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: Vents

Graeme, I found the Naca vents did not flow enough air for me on hot summer days so went down the standard aircraft practice used for Sailplanes and Motorgliders 

( derived from a ww2 requirement of all aircraft supplied to military to have a direct view panel in case of oil coverage or icing ).

I enjoy flying in the winter and during a dawn takeoff from Elverum in Norway snow covered strip , the canopy totally iced over as we climbed out , we were able to use open DV panel to circle the field as the rising sun melted the ice and restored full view..

Window  needs to conform to shape of screen ,

 Mould taken from exterior of screen before I laser cut the window aperture .

The location is high enough so the ram air vent clears the door handle.

And is as far forward as the slide rails will go against door frame .

https://www.afeonline.com/shop/mecaplex-dv-panel-scoop.html?osCsid=6b2332ad4f6f025eb953f910786112fe

[img]cid:48119686-0540-4C4A-96EC-682C9928E191[/img]



Sent from my iPad



On 28 Jan 2021, at 08:03, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>



Any suggestions on cockpit vents. I am not far off painting my fuselage but haven't added any vents yet. The supplied ones are not durable. I tried to get the ones Ivan was looking for but they are no longer made. Tempted by the square piper ones from aircraftspruce.



--------

Graeme Bird

Kit 3 in build (Gregory) mono Classic 914 xs fwfwd Woodcomp

Kit 2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive

Kit 1 G-UMPY -  Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp SR3000/3W CS, G((at))gdbmk.co.uk





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500444#500444

<==========================bsp;     - The Europa-List Email Forum -

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Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Vents

Nice work KJ.



I am surprised that the NACA vents do not deliver copious quantities of fresh air

 

I live in Australia (very hot) and have always found them to be very effective when made to correct dimensions , located appropriately and sized - 



I see I gave the wrong information for  Peter Anson  Engineering - hope this works:



http://www.ansoneng.com/



He makes a nice selection of different NACA vents & ducting

_________________
46

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 220

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:12 am Post subject: Vents

I found that small NACA vents in the standard position didn't flow any air at all, without the addition of a VG in front of the vent (after which the vent makes a blast, and is quite noisy too).

Which suggests there's a bubble forming at the aft edge of the cowling. But I've not been able to detect a bubble using oil-streak.

Perhaps there's a Reynolds number limitation on how NACA vents work??



Duncan McF.

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 26 March 2021 at 00:04 Griffo <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 Nice work KJ.

 

 I am surprised that the NACA vents do not deliver copious quantities of fresh air

  

 I live in Australia (very hot) and have always found them to be very effective when made to correct dimensions , located appropriately and sized - 

 

 I see I gave the wrong information for  Peter Anson  Engineering - hope this works:

 

 http://www.ansoneng.com/

 

 He makes a nice selection of different NACA vents & ducting

 

 --------

 46

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501098#501098

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Vents

Hi Duncan,



First rule of effective venting is: Location, location, location --------



Then comes design, as in shape & proportions NACA vents must be correctly proportioned to work effectively, not just look the part (as in may auto types)



Then comes size.



Lastly, exit air rout & size

_________________
46

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 220

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:10 am Post subject: Vents

All of which are compliant:

Duct proportioned as per NACA coordinates, positioned where all the other Europas have positioned theirs, and the fuselage 'sucks'.

So some other explanation is needed.



However,

I'd be interested to learn about the size effects; can you elaborate.

Duncan McF.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 26 March 2021 at 21:27 Griffo <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 Hi Duncan,

 

 First rule of effective venting is: Location, location, location --------

 

 Then comes design, as in shape & proportions NACA vents must be correctly proportioned to work effectively, not just look the part (as in may auto types)

 

 Then comes size.

 

 Lastly, exit air rout & size

 

 --------

 46

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501109#501109

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Vents

I am looking for a flying Europa to purchase, so have little Europa specific information to give you however my current aircraft, an ATEC Zephyr, has NACA vents, on each side of the cockpit, just aft of the firewall - they perform very well.  I will have to measure them to be sure but at a guess they are approximately 100 mm wide x 120 mm long. This suggests to me that your problem is not the vent (assuming correct design) but their location and/or possible alignment in relation to airflow â€“ I think you have probably worked this out already. 

Soooo perhapsâ€ tuftingâ€ of possible locations to show air flow/direction but as you wonâ€™t be able to see how they move, a camera mounted on the wing might just get the information you need for best placement/alignment.

As for size â€“ check out http://www.ansoneng.com/

_________________
46

Gilles

Joined: 16 May 2020
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: Vents

Le 26/03/2021 Ã  22:27, Griffo a Ã©critÂ :

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Griffo" <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au> (scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au)



Hi Duncan,



First rule of effective venting is: Location, location, location --------



Then comes design, as in shape & proportions NACA vents must be correctly proportioned to work effectively, not just look the part (as in may auto types)



Then comes size.



Lastly, exit air rout & size

	
     	
     



          

Hi all,     

This is what we did as a "defog" system :     

http://contrails.free.fr/cellule_defog_en.php     



          

Also I happened to perform a small study on NACA vents some time       ago.     

To support Ducan message, location, location !     

The "NACA sumerged inlet" works only if the streamlines at its       location are fairly parallel (ie no acceleration or especially no       deceleration) and not too disturbed.     

A clean inlet ramp, really square edges and a proper "lip" are       required.     

[img]cid:part1.E6A2674D.3B9F56CD(at)free.fr[/img]     

Should craft a web page one of these days.     

FWIW

          -- 

       Best regards,

       Gilles

       http://contrails.free.fr

       http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr

bhabgebnfadfdlik.png

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_________________
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Vents

There has been a fair amount of discussion over the location of vents in the Europa, primarily due to interest in the round Ventomatic style of vent.



The location shown in this post , close to the waterline (WL) of the wing LE, is probably too low.  The shown location differed from that indicated in the build notes that l have found.



The protruding exhaust disrupts the airflow at this WL, making it turbulen.  Two effects: a) the NACA duct does not work efficiently.  b) toxic gases from the exhaust stub can enter the cockpit.



My Europa has NACA ducts closer to the fuse split line and work very well.  As do many other with the standard duct shape in or around this location.



The demisting of my cockpit is achieved with 2 off PC fans of around 60mmdiameter mounted in a carbon fibre plate fixed to the P1 side of the panel inner moulding.   This picks up cabin air, slightly heated by the avionics and instruments and blows it onto the screen.  I fitted it after leaving the aircraft parked outside for days in autumn, in flight it misted and the side vents were only effective in helping to demise the screen when flying above 100kts.  



I have no DV panel and had to land with limited viz whilst mopping moisture off the screen.  My (then) 11 year old son asking me â€œis this normal?â€.



So, in my opinion other posts are correct, location, location is the key.



On the ACCEL electric aircraft the team decided to locate a very small NACA duct just in front of the vast screen and created a duct similar to the one shown linked in this post.   The base of the screen at the centreline is a good taping point in the Europa, although it would need some surgery and a displaced cowling break line to make it a fixture.  A ductING joint could be fashioned but Scat hose should not be used as it is high loss.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

Patrick Tunney

Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 33

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Vents

I am just in the process of installing the round style air o vents.



could i please get feedback on the best possible location and what worked well before i comit to the hole in the fuselage.



Images would really help.



Thanks



Pat

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:16 am Post subject: Vents

I've had many discussions over the years on cockpit ventilation and I summarized them in a pdf for you guys to look at.  I'm always interested in how to make things work.

My own aircraft is tolerable in the Florida heat, but frankly it too can be improved.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

Cockpit_Ventilation.pdf

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Vents

Reply to Pat Tunney



I will post a sketch of the preferred zone when l go to the office tomorrow.

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Vents

Very comprehensive article Bud - covered the topic very well. 

Seems KJ might have his, very nicely finished, NACA vents to low down on the fuselage.

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46

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