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Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

On Jul 26, 2006, at 9:31 PM, Scott Patterson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Are you aware of any Light Sport regs concerning over water operation?


	


Only the Norwegian ultralight aircraft rule that says: max 10 km from 

the coast, Scott. But they consider removing it.



One think I'd like to add from my lifetime sailing experience: From all 

the stories I read, trying to get into a life raft is extremely 

dangerous and it gives a false sense of security. The Fastnet race 

disaster of 1979 is a good example: If I remember correctly, 16 persons 

died yet only one sailboat sank. They others were found dead in the 

water or on a raft, while their ship was still floating.



My thinking is: Stay  with the ship until you stand on the spreaders 

(half way up the mast) and have water up to your shoulders.

When I sailed single handed to south Europe, I had made a watertight 

door that separated my  sailboat in two, giving enough buoyancy, even 

if the bow was smashed by a whale of a half sunk container (a real 

danger!).



So, my Kitfox thinking has been: If I was to cross a long stretch of 

water, I'd like to find a way to add buoyancy to the fuselage with e.g. 

a lot of inflated balloons. Has anybody been thinking in that 

direction?



Whenever I fly over the water, I also make sure that I note any vessel 

nearby. If I should then suffer an engine stop, I would notify ATC of 

my position and the vessel in question and they would contact at once 

the nearest rescue station that would contact the vessel via the now 

compulsory GMDSS system.



Still one question remains: Ditch nose in the wind or parallel to the 

swell?



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

 	  Quote: 	
		  Michel - So, my Kitfox thinking has been: If I was to cross a long stretch of water, I'd like to find a way to add buoyancy to the fuselage with e.g. a lot of inflated balloons. Has anybody been thinking in that 

direction?  	




Michel - your balloon idea is good! - you've probably read of larger boats being raised with garbage bags - which would probably make a more durable balloon.  Filling the tail area would provide more than enough Buoyancy to keep a Kitfox, a bit like a duck, tail up.... in the water and would allow you to 'stay with the ship', and hopefully even salvage it.



It may be more likely to have calm water than rough in a ditch vs a sailboat storm sinking. I always figured, if it came to it, I'd toss the raft out before the ditch, then if I could swim... I... and any seach party would have a visual target in addition to EPIRB signal.  I also normally fly over warm water. Cold - your survial suit would be a big help though hard to imagine sitting, fully suited in a tiny cockpit.  (it would make a good picture:)



OFF topic

- on the water theme....

A friends 45 ft sailboat - STEEL - sank at the dock last Sunday as a result of a 1/2 by 1/16 inch crack in a valve just inboard of a through hull fitting. 

I guess it filled up slowly with the leak, then when the hull was low to the level of the center board trunk cable - the last was very fast..

Fortunitly he was in shallow water. And using his VAN, and halyard, we righted him enough to add a bit to the cockpit combing then pump, pump, pump.  Diesel was running the next day... still quite a miss.



Moral to this none-flying story....(just because you think your tuff (steel) don't leave the bilge pump off !!!!! i.e. take all reasonable precautions)  

 

My boat is wood... I have redudant DC pumps & batteries and AC pump behind the DC then a streaming alarm (hello word - with not to call me / and instructions for manual pumping) if all that fails.... and water level sensor and auto-dialer that calls my cell phone.  



Richard - sailor & someday Kitfox flyer.



do not archive

occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

 	  Quote: 	
		   Still one question remains: Ditch nose in the wind or parallel to the 

 swell?



 Cheers,

 Michel




	


Now there's a question!! Given my experiences with the sea and waves, I 

think this might be one time I'd prefer a downwind landing! If you hit just 

right maybe you could surf to shore!!

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Ditch into the wind or parallel to the swells????  I guess that depends on

force and direction of the wind and the height of the sea.  E.g. if the wind

is perpendicular to lower seas and there is a lot of wind then ditch into

the wind.( you'll be going slower) if the  seas are very high ditch parallel

to the seas on the top of a swell.



Just my opinion.



Noel 

Living on the coast of the North Atlantic



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Flotation is nice to have.....  But...(I hate that word)



Make sure whatever you use for flotation won't,  make the can't interfere

with the operation of your controls.  I think I would rather have flotation

outboard of the wing tanks where there are no moving parts to jam.



If you are up to it see if you can adapt a pop out float for a helicopter.

Install it along the bottom of your fuselage.  Then if you really have to

ditch you will have something soft to land on.  Check with some helicopter

companies they may have some time-exed pop outs they may be willing to give

you as long as you won't be installing into a certified aircraft.  You can

also start form scratch and design a pop out specifically for the 'Fox.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Surf ten K to shore.... Surely you jest ;^}



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Also  this part



Life Preservers and Flotation Devices



602.62 (1) No person shall conduct a take-off or a landing on water in an 

aircraft or operate an aircraft over water beyond a point where the aircraft 

could reach shore in the event of an engine failure, unless a life 

preserver, individual flotation device or personal flotation device is 

carried for each person on board.



(2) No person shall operate a land aeroplane, gyroplane, helicopter or 

airship at more than 50 nautical miles from shore unless a life preserver is 

carried for each person on board.



(3) No person shall operate a balloon at more than two nautical miles from 

shore unless a life preserver, individual flotation device or personal 

flotation device is carried for each person on board.



(4) For aircraft other than balloons, every life preserver, individual 

flotation device and personal flotation device referred to in this section 

shall be stowed in a position that is easily accessible to the person for 

whose use it is provided, when that person is seated.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Sorry for the second reply on this post.  I thought it may be important to

mention that you don't get your worst swells (seas) during a storm but after

a storm.  I have seen 30' seas on what was other wise glassy water with 0

wind.  With seas like that you don't want to take the chance of ditching

half way up an arriving swell!  It your burry faster than you can say Davey

Jones!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Here is the regs from Canada,



Common sense is stay within gliding distance from shore.

Dave

Life Rafts and Survival Equipment - Flights over Water



602.63 (1) No person shall operate over water a single-engined aeroplane, or 

a multi-engined aeroplane that is unable to maintain flight with any engine 

failed, at more than 100 nautical miles, or the distance that can be covered 

in 30 minutes of flight at the cruising speed filed in the flight plan or 

flight itinerary, whichever distance is the lesser, from a suitable 

emergency landing site unless life rafts are carried on board and are 

sufficient in total rated capacity to accommodate all of the persons on 

board.



(2) Subject to subsection (3), no person shall operate over water a 

multi-engined aeroplane that is able to maintain flight with any engine 

failed at more than 200 nautical miles, or the distance that can be covered 

in 60 minutes of flight at the cruising speed filed in the flight plan or 

flight itinerary, whichever distance is the lesser, from a suitable 

emergency landing site unless life rafts are carried on board and are 

sufficient in total rated capacity to accommodate all of the persons on 

board.



(3) A person may operate over water a transport category aircraft that is an 

aeroplane, at up to 400 nautical miles, or the distance that can be covered 

in 120 minutes of flight at the cruising speed filed in the flight plan or 

flight itinerary, whichever distance is the lesser, from a suitable 

emergency landing site without the life rafts referred to in subsection (2) 

being carried on board.



(4) No person shall operate over water a single-engined helicopter, or a 

multi-engined helicopter that is unable to maintain flight with any engine 

failed, at more than 25 nautical miles, or the distance that can be covered 

in 15 minutes of flight at the cruising speed filed in the flight plan or 

flight itinerary, whichever distance is the lesser, from a suitable 

emergency landing site unless life rafts are carried on board and are 

sufficient in total rated capacity to accommodate all of the persons on 

board.



(5) No person shall operate over water a multi-engined helicopter that is 

able to maintain flight with any engine failed at more than 50 nautical 

miles, or the distance that can be covered in 30 minutes of flight at the 

cruising speed filed in the flight plan or flight itinerary, whichever 

distance is the lesser, from a suitable emergency landing site unless life 

rafts are carried on board and are sufficient in total rated capacity to 

accommodate all of the persons on board.



(6) The life rafts referred to in this section shall be



(a) stowed so that they are easily accessible for use in the event of a 

ditching;



(b) installed in conspicuously marked locations near an exit; and



(c) equipped with an attached survival kit, sufficient for the survival on 

water of each person on board the aircraft, given the geographical area, the 

season of the year and anticipated seasonal climatic variations, that 

provides a means for



(i) providing shelter,



(ii) providing or purifying water, and



(iii) visually signalling distress.



(7) Where a helicopter is required to carry life rafts pursuant to 

subsection (4) or (5), no person shall operate the helicopter over water 

having a temperature of less than 10oC unless



(a) a helicopter passenger transportation suit system is provided for the 

use of each person on board; and



(b) the pilot-in-command directs each person on board to wear the helicopter 

passenger transportation suit system.



( Every person who has been directed to wear a helicopter passenger 

transportation suit system pursuant to paragraph (7)(b) shall wear that suit 

system.



602.64 to 602.69

occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Green on the gills Eh /;^}......   Me too I hate it.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kingjohne(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

 	  Quote: 	
		  Michel,



Use lots of ping pong balls.  They add very little weight and can be stuffed in a lot of small places.



-- 

John King 

Warrenton, VA 	
 

 

 Michel Verheughe wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  

   

 So, my Kitfox thinking has been: If I was to cross a long stretch of water, I'd like to find a way to add buoyancy to the fuselage with e.g. a lot of inflated balloons. Has anybody been thinking in that direction?   

   

   

 Cheers,   

 Michel

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

John, are you really serious - Ping Pong balls??  It is a brilliant idea 

LoL...

Andrew

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: John King <kingjohne(at)adelphia.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:41:32 -0400

Michel,

Use lots of ping pong balls.  They add very little weight and can be 

stuffed in a lot of small places.

--

John King Warrenton, VA

Michel Verheughe wrote:

>So, my Kitfox thinking has been: If I was to cross a long stretch of 

>water, I'd like to find a way to add buoyancy to the fuselage with e.g. a 

>lot of inflated balloons. Has anybody been thinking in that direction?

>Cheers,

>Michel

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®

markrmiller(at)cableone.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Not Much good after you open the door.



Mark Miller

---

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Unless you confine them to some crazy mesh restraint in the empennage 



Andrew



do not archive

[quote]From: "Mark R Miller" <markrmiller(at)cableone.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:54:16 -0600




<markrmiller(at)cableone.net>



Not Much good after you open the door.



Mark Miller

---

Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

when a Flight star flew from south America across the Ocean to sun fun0the0 pilot put over 300 inflated condoms in the wings    DO NOT0 ARCHIVE

kingjohne(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Andrew,

 

 An ultralight that was flying the Caribbean filled his wings with ping pong balls.  All the floatation was in the wings.  They were later removed.

  	  Quote: 	
		  -- 

John King 

Warrenton, VA 	
 

 Andrew Matthaey wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" <spaghettiohead(at)hotmail.com> (spaghettiohead(at)hotmail.com)   

   

 John, are you really serious - Ping Pong balls??  It is a brilliant idea LoL...   

   

 Andrew   

   

   

    	  Quote: 	
		  From: John King <kingjohne(at)adelphia.net> (kingjohne(at)adelphia.net)     

 Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)     

     

     

     

     

 Michel,     

     

 Use lots of ping pong balls.  They add very little weight and can be stuffed in a lot of small places.     

     

 --     

 John King Warrenton, VA

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

I love it  Thanks John!



Andrew



do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: John King <kingjohne(at)adelphia.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:46:48 -0400



Andrew,



An ultralight that was flying the Caribbean filled his wings with ping pong 

balls.  All the floatation was in the wings.  They were later removed.



--

John King Warrenton, VA

Andrew Matthaey wrote:



>

><spaghettiohead(at)hotmail.com>

>

>John, are you really serious - Ping Pong balls??  It is a brilliant idea 

>LoL...

>

>Andrew

>>From: John King <kingjohne(at)adelphia.net>

>>Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

>>To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

>>Subject: Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

>>Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:41:32 -0400

>>

>>Michel,

>>

>>Use lots of ping pong balls.  They add very little weight and can be 

>>stuffed in a lot of small places.

>>

>>--

>>John King Warrenton, VA

>>

>>

>>




	


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Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 

http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Add air filled zip-lock bags as floatation devices. 

Some put them in their flightsuit pockets in the

Marines (ah, during survival training to ofset the

heavy flight boots.  Shoosh)



Kurt S.



--- Malcolmbru(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   when a Flight star flew from south America across

 the Ocean to sun fun the  

 pilot put over 300 inflated condoms in the wings   

 DO NOT  ARCHIVE


	


__________________________________________________

rexjan(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912

Now that's a good idea and you might happen to find0 a second use for them but I don't know about the whole 300.

                                                                                                                                                                                                               0 Rex.

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