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Matt Dovey

Joined: 13 May 2017
Posts: 48
Location: st albans, england

Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:20 am Post subject: Water Drain

Does anyone know if there is an alternative to Mod 33 water drain valves mod? For what ever reason my aircraft has never had the mod done even though its been run on Mogas. I want to add drain valves but not keen on Mod 33

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:10 am Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Maaate! - every aircraft should have some effective way of sampling the fuel (sump) in the tank, not just for water but for other contaminants. Oh! & water in fuel is not the sole concern of ULP , unleaded fuels in general or even ethanol blends - water contamination can simply be from the diernal temperature range & atmospheric moisture - fit the drains & do the sampling, befor every first flight of the day.

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Matt Dovey

Joined: 13 May 2017
Posts: 48
Location: st albans, england

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Griffo thanks for the input mate. I know all that, I work on aircraft for a living. I didnt build the plane unfortunately. If I had it would have had the drain valves. Having had the tank outlets out recently i'm in no hurry to revisit that nightmare. However if there is an alternative to Mod 33 then that may be an option. The thing has been flying for 20 odd years without them. The mod is "optional" if your running the thing on Avgas and mandatory (in the UK) if using mogas!  Never came across an aircraft without drains before.

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 184

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: Water Drain

Not sure what your unhappiness is with mod 33. It was done by builder on mine but not with long pipes to the back. The drains are just slightly forward of the tank, tri-gear, but use the essential hardware of Mod33.



Having just changed the aged rubbers sealing the outlets into the tank, replaced with fuel proof silicon, I agree itâ€™s not an easy area to work in.



Alan



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 10 May 2021, at 16:10, Matt Dovey <mattdovey(at)hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 Griffo thanks for the input mate. I know all that, I work on aircraft for a living. I didnt build the plane unfortunately. If I had it would have had the drain valves. Having had the tank outlets out recently i'm in no hurry to revisit that nightmare. However if there is an alternative to Mod 33 then that may be an option. The thing has been flying for 20 odd years without them. The mod is "optional" if your running the thing on Avgas and mandatory (in the UK) if using mogas!  Never came across an aircraft without drains before.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501836#501836

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject: Water Drain

Matt, 

Sorry I don't know you or your kit, but I have done my own Mod33 fuel drain for years. 

About 5 aircraft have a simple 90 degree fitting epoxied to the floor of the aft floor behind the flaps so it is easy to drain.   

Make a pair of holes in the aft baggage bay area beyond the flap.  Hole should fit a 1/2 inch socket for the Safeair drain. 

Attach the Safeair to a 1/8" NPT 90 degree fitting.   Brass or aluminum is OK. 

Grease your socket and insert into your sealed and prepared drain hole. 

Place the 90 degree and drain assembly and glue in with Redux. 

  

A variation is to make a ply plate  for the 90 degree/drain assembly and redux the assembly to the plate then simply glue the plate into your prepped holes.  Very neat.  Simply remove the Safeair and screw in a plug during painting. 

  

  

I have a street tee  screwed into the two 90 degree brass fittings for my fuel quantity experiment pictured below. 

The orangish tube is my sight gauge which was added after the original build.  Today I pipe it into the Fuel Boss. 

  

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01D745DA.D9DB3D50[/img] 

  

Most of my Trigear guys put the drains in the tank fuel boss. 

Mono guys put them behind the wing. 

Below is a typical under the belly fuel drain using a simple 1/8 NPT nipple and a tee to make a drain and sight gauge line. 

                     <![endif]--><![if !vml]>[img]cid:image004.jpg(at)01D745D8.66F78930[/img]<![endif]><![endif]-->  

  

  

There are as many variations as there are airplanes.  Note I put my feed line through the back and into the seat well where I install fuel filters with quick disconnects. 

I’m lazy.  I have a fuel drain pan and drain hole just in case there is a leak. 

  

   <![endif]--><![if !vml]>[img]cid:image007.jpg(at)01D745DA.D9DB3D50[/img]<![endif]><![endif]--> Work with your inspector to see what works for you. 

  

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

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Hitchflight

Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 94
Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Water Drain

As usual Bud Yerly giving good inspiration.



Just a reminder directed at the newer U.K. audience members,  all Mods and Mod variations have to be approved by the LAA before execution. The EAA regime is very different to the U.K. Many approaches are proven, but remember changes must ultimately be compliant with the LAA permit. Your aircraft insurance cover is based on a compliant aircraft.



If in doubt check with the Inspector.



Regards

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Terrific suggestions Bud.



I have never been a fan of the screw together reusable filters that so many like.



I find them to be Heavy, Prone to leaking, Messy, Expensive & Fragile



As an alternative, I suggest Hengst H103WK & H102WK



https://www.hengst.com/en/online-catalog/search/?catalog=eu



These filters area a relativly cheap gauze fuel filter, almost indestructible, light weight & you can see any contamination build up. You can clean them (HP air) but hardly worth while.



I have carried a couple of spares for years but never had the occasion to use them.

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46

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:25 pm Post subject: Water Drain

Griffo,

I've never had a problem with mine.  Not even the quick disconnects or those plastic filter elements.

As the dealer I kept mine stock for obvious reasons.  I've never found that these were delicate or easily broken unless dropped.

I've grown to like them.  There is a technique, and with the setup I have, are well protected.  

My technique is to Loctite the fixed end of the tube,  change the rubber rings, tighten the filters down, add the spring per the manual, 

Wrench down the ends just snug to note compression.  Allow to set while I do the other filter, then tighten one more time until I'm satisfied the glass is compressed into the rubber.

After install and full of fuel, I check them again after a few hours to be sure there are no leaks and press on.  

Operationally, I check them after fueling for debris, (with a 914 I run a pump and let the fuel run through the filters on both sides to check for debris), then change them annually or when dirty (which is never).

$10 a year.

I use AvGas so, I get by longer than those using Jerry Cans and auto fuel.

I keep a spare in my cross country kit bag ready to go.



One of my clients put a metal polished camping mirror (piece of polished stainless) under his filters so he can see the bottom of the filter easier.  Nice touch.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



Warning:  This post is for discussion purposes only and not acceptable for action without thorough research, appropriate permissions and guidance from certified sources commensurate with your countries policies and procedures.



--

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Hi Bud,



You have certainly developed some good coping/management techniques with the screw together filters BUT have you looked at the Hengst ones I have recommended? Don't know about the USA but here in Australia, filter choice is not usually seen as an something the aircraft maker has the last word on (they are a consumable like oil or coolant choice). Further the Hengst filters are quite popular in LSA class aircraft operated in Europe. Soooo much simpler to use than the screw together type.

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46

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 5:01 am Post subject: Water Drain

In the US we have similar filters to this and looking on line I am particularly unimpressed with filters with just a straight nipple end.  Although easier, inexpensive and used by the auto industry with their new fuel clip seals, the ASTM crowd in LSAs went to them but use common fuel line.  I will stick to a metal hose barbed end filter and continue on as I am.



You as the manufacturer of the aircraft can make those choices if your country regulations and inspectors allow it.  



A few years ago, a local A&P broke a similar plastic filter on an LSA by clamping down the hose too hard.  This plane had a hose replacement using fuel injection hose, and being a hard hose, he clamped the crap out of it until it cracked.

He called me over to his shop and we had a talk about it, and with carb hose and less pressure it seemed to hold just fine.   The filter only costs a couple of bucks but it was back to the store to get another.  I think the plane was a German LSA.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true" if you are happy to stay with it.

Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available.

A few points;

Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention. 

Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead to damaged leaking hoses. 

Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI  fuel hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with fitting or leaking.

I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise  - change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont  use FI hose) for an even 360 degree clamping pressure and much reduced chance of hose damage.

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46

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true" if you are happy to stay with it.



Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available.



A few points;



Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention. 

Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead to damaged leaking hoses. 

Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI  fuel hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with fitting or leaking.

I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise  - change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont want to use FI hose)

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46

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 5:32 pm Post subject: Water Drain

The gates hose was never the problem.  The plastic filter was installed where the hose immediately bent after the barb.  Heck of a way to install, especially with a plastic $2.00 filter.  When he cranked down on the hose clamp he flexed the hose and the filter snaped.  The Breezer was a ELSA and we think it may have been an owner operator installation issue as it was the first Breezer I had seen come through here.  No plastic part should ever be held in bending.  That was dumb.  



As far as hose clamps go, we use what we call Breeze clamps rather than the garden hose type.  They look the same but are more robust and the screw doesn't protrude into the hose.  However, expediency sometimes dictates the automotive supply shop "only has this type", and on the smaller vent hoses the cheap Chinese knock off Breeze type clamps will get used when the client comes with them.  You are right, the cheap knock off open cut clamps when over tightened can cut the hose, and the rubber can poke through the gap or they just break.  Nasty.  I have moved on hose exchanges to the newer style silicone hose lined clamps supplied by my hose vender.  Easy to use, a bit heavy, protects the hose.  The name on them is AC Delco but I also see Ideal.  They work fine on 5/16 hose but not on 1/4 inch.  Then the compression or Oetiker clamp comes in handy for those.



Why do I choose not to like compression style clamps?  Because I do not like to use them in a low pressure carbureted system hose when it comes to removal.  They get stuck on the hose and are a pain to get off when the client overtightens and the barb end gets buried in the hose.  Especially when repositioning, which occurs during the learning phase.  It's like the clamps on the 11mm crossover tube on the Rotax.  Trying to find new hose that doesn't cost $10 a foot plus shipping is a pain over here.  So, I prefer the Ideal or Dayco lined clamps for my main lines on a change out as I've gone to all 5/16 hose in the Europa so only one fuel line is in the plane.  Easier to buy/replace come hose change time.  I'm lazy.  



Although many LSA manufacturers are going to the crimp type or Oetiker clamp in production.  From a production point of view I can see them, but I'm not excited about the fact they are one time use.  Probably because during fabrication you take it apart and put it together a couple times.  I can see the point that if the clamp area is easily accessed, getting a tool in there is not a problem.  I've never had a leak with an Oetiker clamp, but then again, I'm not going to use them on a fuel filter.



That is why I prefer to do my bosses now with all the joints on the end of the boss and minimize the clamps.  We can do that in the US on our own.  Others have to ask or get permission for a deviation.  Shame.



On my filters I use the Colder products quick disconnects.  I have a love/hate relationship with them, but for 20 years they only require new O rings on the male ends and have never leaked unless the O ring gets cut.  That is why I also hate them.  The stupid locking collar will cut the O ring if care is not taken.  That way the hose clamps go on and stay on for 5 years on the quick disconnects.  



Note, I'm on year 7 with the hoses in 12AY with the lined EPA lined R7 or better carb hose.  It is really holding up very well.  It is still supple, no cracking seen on the ends, and no checking at the clamps.  So, the original 1997 Europa supplied Ideal clamps of steel will probably corrode off before the hose starts looking bad.  Maybe next year I'll do a hose change.  Maybe not?  



I'm getting older and the hose change requirement must be met to comply with the Rotax manual on my 914.  Every one of my cooling hoses has the original style compression clamps and frankly, in Florida they are corroding just a bit now and I can't stand to look at them.  Time to upgrade, probably spring clamps on the cooling hoses I guess with all new engine and airframe hoses and clamps.  That's two to three days work at my pace now days.  



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Good to talk with you Bud,



I dont do so well with imperial/US measurements but can struggle through when I must.



Back to the filters: 



Most of the fuel filters of this "type" have poor quality casings, have pleated "paper" type filters and many are opaque (making it impossible to asses contamination build up)



The Hengst H102WK & H103WK are almost indestructible. Have gauze filters and clear casings - they are more like $10 each Australian, if bought singly but you can get them down to about $6 Au if purchased in quantity.



Like you, I was initially skeptical of the non "barbed" male hose fitting. However  using the right sized ID hose, cut to the correct length and supported, where appropriate, has resulted in 12 years/900hrs of no leaks, no inadvertent detachments.



One other benefit of the non barb, is that the possibility of tearing the inside of the hose, when temporary removal is done, is eliminated. This then eliminates those troublesome little bits of "rubber" that may appear in your float bowl.



The H103WK has a built in 90 degree bend, making tight applications that would benefit from this a breeze.

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46

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:16 am Post subject: Water Drain

I still don't like plastic slip on filters.  It is definitely better than lawn mower filters.  Sorry.

 

 

  Best Regards,

 

  Bud Yerly

 

 

    Get Outlook for Android

 

 

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Griffo <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au>

 Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 11:14:41 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Water Drain  

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Griffo" <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au>

 

 Good to talk with you Bud,

 

 I dont do so well with imperial/US measurements but can struggle through when I must.

 

 Back to the filters: 

 

 Most of the fuel filters of this "type" have poor quality casings, have pleated "paper" type filters and many are opaque (making it impossible to asses contamination build up)

 

 The Hengst H102WK & H103WK are almost indestructible. Have gauze filters and clear casings - they are more like $10 each Australian, if bought singly but you can get them down to about $6 Au if purchased in quantity.

 

 Like you, I was initially skeptical of the non "barbed" male hose fitting. However  using the right sized ID hose, cut to the correct length and supported, where appropriate, has resulted in 12 years/900hrs of no leaks, no inadvertent detachments.

 

 One other benefit of the non barb, is that the possibility of tearing the inside of the hose, when temporary removal is done, is eliminated. This then eliminates those troublesome little bits of "rubber" that may appear in your float bowl.

 

 The H103WK has a built in 90 degree bend, making tight applications that would benefit from this a breeze.

 

 --------

 46

 

 

 

 

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Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Oh well "you can take a horse to water but cant make it drink" 



Just as a final comment:



I first came across these filters being used, as prefilters,  in Mercedes diesel cars/vans. I later found that many of the European LSA class aircraft makers also use them - quit a long way from a lawn mower.

_________________
46

Kelvin Weston

Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Hampshire, UK

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 2:33 am Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Hi Griffo

Iâ€™m sure you did not mean to, but comments such as â€œOh well you can take a horse to water but cant make it drink" tend to come across as a bit of a put down because someone has failed to agree with you.

It maybe you feel your own view / idea / suggestion is better than others, Iâ€™m sure we all do from time to time which is why we all build our Europaâ€™s slightly differently.

But it is inappropriate to share that view on an open forum where the background of other contributors is unknown and all views should be welcomed.

I hope we can avoid getting into â€˜my view is better than yoursâ€™ on this forum.  Ultimately, it is for each reader to take away the information thatâ€™s suits their preference and do what they will with it.

There is a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum and as a novice flyer and builder, I have benefited enormously from people sharing their views and ideas without judgement.

I would hate others to stop sharing for fear of having their views / ideas / and suggestions put down by inappropriate comments

_________________
Regards

Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.co.uk

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 3:36 am Post subject: Water Drain

Fwiw, agree 

PeteZ

C-GNPZ



 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 14, 2021, at 6:41 AM, Kelvin Weston <kelv(at)kdweston.biz> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 Hi Griffo

 Iâ€™m sure you did not mean to, but comments such as â€œOh well you can take a horse to water but cant make it drink" tend to come across as a bit of a put down because someone has failed to agree with you.

 It maybe you feel your own view / idea / suggestion is better than others, Iâ€™m sure we all do from time to time which is why we all build our Europaâ€™s slightly differently.

 But it is inappropriate to share that view on an open forum where the background of other contributors is unknown and all views should be welcomed.

 I hope we can avoid getting into â€˜my view is better than yoursâ€™ on this forum.  Ultimately, it is for each reader to take away the information thatâ€™s suits their preference and do what they will with it.

 There is a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum and as a novice flyer and builder, I have benefited enormously from people sharing their views and ideas without judgement.

 I would hate others to stop sharing for fear of having their views / ideas / and suggestions put down by inappropriate comments

 

 --------

 Regards

 

 Kelv Weston

 Kit 497

 kelv(at)kdweston.biz

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501919#501919

Griffo

Joined: 18 Mar 2021
Posts: 70
Location: The Oaks, NSW, Australia

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Water Drain

Hi Kelv/Peter Z,



My apologies for any offence taken - certainly not intended.



From my point of view, the saying, should be read as -  ideas can be put forward with the best of intentions/experience but not necessarily received/adopted as the need/will to do so is not apparent.



Bear in mind, that my suggestion has also been likened unto a lawn mower fitting - put down?  - possibly.

_________________
46

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Water Drain

Bud is enormouslyÂ helpful to all of us and very generous with his time and I very much respect his advice.Â  He is the most experienced among us having built many aircraft and guided many builders through the process, myself included.Â  Â Without the encouragement of the forum and especially Bud I wouldÂ not have achievedÂ my wonderful aircraft.

Will



William Daniell



LONGPORT



+1 786 878 0246

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:31 PM Griffo <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au (scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Griffo" <scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au (scangriffin(at)bigpond.com.au)>

 

 Hi Kelv/Peter Z,

 

 My apologies for any offence taken - certainly not intended.

 

 >From my point of view, the saying, should be read as -Â  ideas can be put forward with the best of intentions/experience but not necessarily received/adopted as the need/will to do so is not apparent.

 

 Bear in mind, that my suggestion has also been likened unto a lawn mower fitting - put down?Â  - possibly.

 

 --------

 46

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501939#501939

 

 

 

 

 

 

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